Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:47 pm

PennBull wrote:
I think they value grades more than r6 insinuated, but I will agree that grades might not even be the most important factor in getting a paid 1L summer position (whereas it is the most important thing for your 2L summer position).


Grades is more important when you don't have the other attributes. It's a combination of all things. If you have a EE PhD and 10 years working for intel you are going to get a 1L job with straight Bs. The fact that many people get firm offers before 1L grades are even released shows you how much grades matter for 1L hiring. And again, one semester of bad grades isn't going to overwrite all the other stuff one has going previous to law school, especially considering everyone knows it's a big adjustment and grading is arbitrary. The competition for 1L firm hiring is different than 2L hiring IMO, employers are looking for different things.

I was shocked as to how doable getting a paid 1L summer job is at Penn. That said, the number is still REALLY low. Don't bank on it. I used to think they were like mythical unicorns and didn't exist, but now I see they're just kinda rare.


What's "really low"? It was like 10-15% in the ITE years, I wouldn't be surprised if that number is higher this year. I am curious what the number break down really is come Nov. 1. I know quite a few people at firms, and I only know about half of the students.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:49 pm

PennBull wrote:
Everything is beautiful and nice all the way out to 48thish, and even past there it's fine. The people who say living in West Philly is dangerous don't know what they're talking about.


I wouldn't go that far. I am from the real West Philly, you only see what's on the surface.

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:09 pm

r6_philly wrote:Grades is more important when you don't have the other attributes. It's a combination of all things. If you have a EE PhD and 10 years working for intel you are going to get a 1L job with straight Bs. The fact that many people get firm offers before 1L grades are even released shows you how much grades matter for 1L hiring. And again, one semester of bad grades isn't going to overwrite all the other stuff one has going previous to law school, especially considering everyone knows it's a big adjustment and grading is arbitrary. The competition for 1L firm hiring is different than 2L hiring IMO, employers are looking for different things.


We agree on everything here haha

r6_philly wrote:
PennBull wrote:I was shocked as to how doable getting a paid 1L summer job is at Penn. That said, the number is still REALLY low. Don't bank on it. I used to think they were like mythical unicorns and didn't exist, but now I see they're just kinda rare.


What's "really low"? It was like 10-15% in the ITE years, I wouldn't be surprised if that number is higher this year. I am curious what the number break down really is come Nov. 1. I know quite a few people at firms, and I only know about half of the students.


Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. A lot of folks have always been hired from great connections/etc. But there aren't too many regular people who are able to land paid jobs.

r6_philly wrote:
PennBull wrote:
Everything is beautiful and nice all the way out to 48thish, and even past there it's fine. The people who say living in West Philly is dangerous don't know what they're talking about.


I wouldn't go that far. I am from the real West Philly, you only see what's on the surface.


You know I will gladly defer to you and HW on Philly related questions. I definitely was a little strong--I didn't mean to suggest everything past 48th is "fine." Poor choice of words. But, the area before there is very suitable living IMO.

Where does "University City" end? Because we always call the area where I live "West Philly", but it's really not. It's still University City. I would feel extremely comfortable living out to 45th or 46th, but not north of Walnut.
Last edited by PennBull on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:15 pm

PennBull wrote:
You know I will gladly defer to you and HW on Philly related questions. I definitely was a little strong--I didn't mean to suggest everything past 48th is "fine." Poor choice of words. But, the area before there is very suitable living IMO.

Where does "University City" end? Because we always call the area where I live "West Philly", but it's really not. It's still University City. I would feel extremely comfortable living out to 45th or 46th, but not north of Walnut.


I think it's fine within 1 block of Baltimore because the major street does look really nice. But go to say 49th and Chester (2-3 blocks south it still get sketchy). If you look on the map, there is the regional rail track crossing diagonally through, and it's not good on the other side.

I feel like UC stops where UCD patrol ends. They have been doing a great job revitalizing the area, but what hasn't been improved is still "west philly" lol. Just my opinion of course.

clee33
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:29 am

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby clee33 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:09 pm

r6_philly wrote:
PennBull wrote:
I took it a few times going home. I never looked up the schedule, but occasionally it would be there and I would hop on. I hate waiting for buses when I could just walk 15 minutes, so I never really cared too much. But they exist and I always see them driving around.

You might wanna give it a try for a week to get a sample size on how accurate they are.


You can get on the mobile site and it shows where each bus is at all times (GPS). So you don't have to stand around waiting for the bus. It runs every 30 minutes.


thanks guys!

Copacetic1
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:15 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Copacetic1 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:07 pm

This was mentioned in some of the earlier threads, but I just wanted to ask again if there was there a decisive answer on whether Legal Writing would be graded starting this year with the traditional letter grades: A, B, C, etc?

Also in terms of courses for the first semester, out of the core classes (civ pro, constitutional, contracts, criminal, property, and torts) which 3 are the ones that you will take the first semester and which 3 are the ones you take the second semester, or does this simply depend on what section you are in?


Thanks!

lynch
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby lynch » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:55 pm

do you really want to be there?

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:11 am

Copacetic1 wrote:This was mentioned in some of the earlier threads, but I just wanted to ask again if there was there a decisive answer on whether Legal Writing would be graded starting this year with the traditional letter grades: A, B, C, etc?

Also in terms of courses for the first semester, out of the core classes (civ pro, constitutional, contracts, criminal, property, and torts) which 3 are the ones that you will take the first semester and which 3 are the ones you take the second semester, or does this simply depend on what section you are in?


Thanks!


Legal Writing will be pass/fail this year, and graded the following year (that's my understanding at least).

Property has been scratched from the core curriculum--it's just an elective now. Surprise! We had Civpro, Contracts, and Torts first semester. I think I remember glancing at the schedule and it was the same this year.

User avatar
JDizzle2015
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:16 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby JDizzle2015 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:17 am

PennBull wrote:Legal Writing will be pass/fail this year, and graded the following year (that's my understanding at least).

YES!!!!!!!!

I really hope you're not just making that up and have a credible source for it.

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:29 am

JDizzle2015 wrote:
PennBull wrote:Legal Writing will be pass/fail this year, and graded the following year (that's my understanding at least).

YES!!!!!!!!

I really hope you're not just making that up and have a credible source for it.


They're revamping the program and hiring a new position to aid in that process. They haven't even selected somebody yet, and the 3Ls who do the majority of legal writing instructing are still there this year. I think those are pretty indicative that the changes aren't going to be this year.

clee33
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:29 am

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby clee33 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:25 am

Wow that lw info is potentially amazing news.

Anyone know why they are dropping property? Seems kind of important to let it be an elective. Don't we have to know it for the bar?

HeavenWood
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:34 am

clee33 wrote:Wow that lw info is potentially amazing news.

Anyone know why they are dropping property? Seems kind of important to let it be an elective. Don't we have to know it for the bar?

They're scrapping it in order to make room for the more comprehensive LRW program. Property will still be available as a spring semester elective.

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:45 am

HeavenWood wrote:
clee33 wrote:Wow that lw info is potentially amazing news.

Anyone know why they are dropping property? Seems kind of important to let it be an elective. Don't we have to know it for the bar?

They're scrapping it in order to make room for the more comprehensive LRW program. Property will still be available as a spring semester elective.


Curious about the bar exam thing though. I really don't know anything about the bar exam, but is property stuff on it? Or is that just like all the other topics where you just study it when the time comes to take the exam?

clee33
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:29 am

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby clee33 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:56 am

But as an elective, I assume that there won't be enough spots in it for everyone, correct? Won't that put those that dont get into the class at a disadvantage? Or am I overrating the importance of a 1l property class for the bar? Plus isn't t kind of expected for a lawyer to know property law?

Don't get me wrong, 3 graded classes in the fall sounds awesome. But I'm wondering if it will bite us later.
Last edited by clee33 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:06 am

clee33 wrote:But as an elective, I assume that there won't be enough spots in it for everyone, correct? Won't that put those that dont get into the class at a disadvantage? Or am I overrating the importance of a 1l property class for the bar? Plus isn't t kind of expected for a lawyer to know property law?

You can always take the elective later, and no, it won't put you at a disadvantage if you don't take the course right away. If you can get through law school and put forth some semblance of effort in studying for the bar, you'll be just fine. Property is just as important as any other doctrinal class with respect to real-world practice (ie, not very).

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:06 am

clee33 wrote:But as an elective, I assume that there won't be enough spots in it for everyone, correct? Won't that put those that dont get into the class at a disadvantage? Or am I overrating the importance of a 1l property class for the bar? Plus isn't t kind of expected for a lawyer to know property law?


You are severely overrating it. I think Property is a good class to teach you to "think like a lawyer", but it's not imperative for the bar.

That said, as I insinuated before, I'm not sure there isn't some sort of little advantage that comes from taking the class. From what I understand (which may be wrong), when you study torts for the bar, it's really a completely new process but you do remember some things from the class you took 3 years ago.

If there's someone who knows more about the bar exam and the effect of not having property, I'm curious to hear the answer. What I DO know is that a school isn't going to disadvantage it's students in taking the bar exam. I mean, it's Penn Law, they're not going to poorly prepare you.

clee33
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:29 am

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby clee33 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:14 am

PennBull wrote:I mean, it's Penn Law, they're not going to poorly prepare you.


Haha, I don't doubt that. Was more just wondering about the reasoning behind it. As you can probably tell I don't really know anything about the bar yet. Thanks guys.

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:19 am

clee33 wrote:
PennBull wrote:I mean, it's Penn Law, they're not going to poorly prepare you.


Haha, I don't doubt that. Was more just wondering about the reasoning behind it. As you can probably tell I don't really know anything about the bar yet. Thanks guys.


As HeavenWood said, it's more to make room for LRW. Also, the reason I heard was that the ABA told Penn they had too many credits for 1Ls, and they had to drop a credit. Penn is very proud of the fact that they allow 1Ls to take 2 electives in the spring semester, so they decided to drop property instead of one of the electives.

As you can tell I don't know much about the bar exam either. Right now people are studying for the bar, so you might be able to browse the forums of this site and see some graduates talking about their bar exam studying.

User avatar
Georgiana
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Georgiana » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:45 am

PennBull wrote:
clee33 wrote:
PennBull wrote:I mean, it's Penn Law, they're not going to poorly prepare you.


Haha, I don't doubt that. Was more just wondering about the reasoning behind it. As you can probably tell I don't really know anything about the bar yet. Thanks guys.


As HeavenWood said, it's more to make room for LRW. Also, the reason I heard was that the ABA told Penn they had too many credits for 1Ls, and they had to drop a credit. Penn is very proud of the fact that they allow 1Ls to take 2 electives in the spring semester, so they decided to drop property instead of one of the electives.

As you can tell I don't know much about the bar exam either. Right now people are studying for the bar, so you might be able to browse the forums of this site and see some graduates talking about their bar exam studying.

Property is a huge part of the bar and personally I think everyone should take it (graduating not knowing what an easement is or what fee simple means would be ridiculous in my opinion). I'm sad Penn is dropping that instead of dropping con law as a required course, but it is what it is. People learn a ton of things for the bar, and learning property too won't make that big of a difference.

Take property. (caveat: you may not LIKE property... results may vary; personally property was one of my favorite classes)

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:49 am

Georgiana wrote:Property is a huge part of the bar and personally I think everyone should take it (graduating not knowing what an easement is or what fee simple means would be ridiculous in my opinion). I'm sad Penn is dropping that instead of dropping con law as a required course, but it is what it is. People learn a ton of things for the bar, and learning property too won't make that big of a difference.

Take property. (caveat: you may not LIKE property... results may vary; personally property was one of my favorite classes)


Do you think not taking property hurts you in studying for the bar?

Who was your property professor?

User avatar
Georgiana
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Georgiana » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:19 pm

PennBull wrote:
Georgiana wrote:Property is a huge part of the bar and personally I think everyone should take it (graduating not knowing what an easement is or what fee simple means would be ridiculous in my opinion). I'm sad Penn is dropping that instead of dropping con law as a required course, but it is what it is. People learn a ton of things for the bar, and learning property too won't make that big of a difference.

Take property. (caveat: you may not LIKE property... results may vary; personally property was one of my favorite classes)


Do you think not taking property hurts you in studying for the bar?

Who was your property professor?

Serkin was my prof, he was a visitor (my year we had all visitors teaching property). I think it just adds another big (and it is a BIG) topic to learn. Its like evidence... its a big topic on the bar that isn't a required class at a lot of schools but is highly recommended.

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:24 pm

Georgiana wrote:
PennBull wrote:
Georgiana wrote:Property is a huge part of the bar and personally I think everyone should take it (graduating not knowing what an easement is or what fee simple means would be ridiculous in my opinion). I'm sad Penn is dropping that instead of dropping con law as a required course, but it is what it is. People learn a ton of things for the bar, and learning property too won't make that big of a difference.

Take property. (caveat: you may not LIKE property... results may vary; personally property was one of my favorite classes)


Do you think not taking property hurts you in studying for the bar?

Who was your property professor?

Serkin was my prof, he was a visitor (my year we had all visitors teaching property). I think it just adds another big (and it is a BIG) topic to learn. Its like evidence... its a big topic on the bar that isn't a required class at a lot of schools but is highly recommended.


Gotcha. I was talking with my friend at lunch today about Evidence. It sounds awful, but almost required because of the bar.

User avatar
2012prospective
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:58 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby 2012prospective » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:33 pm

Random question: are there places in the law school where you can study after the library closes at night? Like classrooms or a lounge area or something?

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15404
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:38 pm

2012prospective wrote:Random question: are there places in the law school where you can study after the library closes at night? Like classrooms or a lounge area or something?


The library closes at 11:45 PM Sunday-Thursday and 10:45 on Friday-Saturday. It is also 24/7 starting a little bit before finals.

In my opinion, if you are at the library later than those times, you are doing something wrong.

If you need the occasional bender (like a legal writing assignment due the next day or something), the Van Pelt undergrad llibrary has a 24/7 area and I think Huntsman Hall (Wharton) does too.

User avatar
Georgiana
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Georgiana » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:20 pm

2012prospective wrote:Random question: are there places in the law school where you can study after the library closes at night? Like classrooms or a lounge area or something?

Yes... pretty much anywhere. The night guard likes to try to make people leave when she does a walk around at the end of the night, but just say "ok, thanks I'm packing up" and then don't. You can go out the door onto Chestnut after everything is locked up without having to worry that you screwed up some locked door.




Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests