Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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whuntington3
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby whuntington3 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:26 pm

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Last edited by whuntington3 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

justicefishy
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby justicefishy » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:55 pm

banjo wrote:Thanks for taking questions, Penn students. Quick question: is the Philly market closed off to Penn students who didn't grow up in the region? Can working in Philly for 1-2 years or summering in Philly after 1L help establish ties to the city?


I'm wondering this too. I have semi-demonstrated ties (some family, went to a college in Philly) and would be interested in staying for a while. Would you say that would help me break in?

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:00 am

It's not so much that you like and want to stay in Philly. It is more about you not run to NYC or wherever the first chance you got. Having ties is not the key, convincing that you will not go somewhere else you have stronger tie is. So if you have weak ties, then you need to work harder to convince them since you obviously have stronger ties elsewhere (or could be naturally attracted to that big city to the north).

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:30 am

Sorry for not getting to these sooner, hope I can still help.

whuntington3 wrote:How well do you guys think Penn places in areas where it does not have regional interviews (namely, Seattle)?


You don't have to "hustle", per se, but you should definitely keep in contact with firms/organizations/whatever in the area that you think you'd be interested in working for. I'd talk to our career offices on how exactly to do it, but I know for a fact lots of students go to relatively minor markets.
r6philly wrote:
justicefishy wrote:
banjo wrote:Thanks for taking questions, Penn students. Quick question: is the Philly market closed off to Penn students who didn't grow up in the region? Can working in Philly for 1-2 years or summering in Philly after 1L help establish ties to the city?


I'm wondering this too. I have semi-demonstrated ties (some family, went to a college in Philly) and would be interested in staying for a while. Would you say that would help me break in?
It's not so much that you like and want to stay in Philly. It is more about you not run to NYC or wherever the first chance you got. Having ties is not the key, convincing that you will not go somewhere else you have stronger tie is. So if you have weak ties, then you need to work harder to convince them since you obviously have stronger ties elsewhere (or could be naturally attracted to that big city to the north).


I'd say this is pretty much right--r6 and HW are our resident Philly experts. The general feeling I get is that Philly businesses just assume you'll be going somewhere else after working for them for 3 or 4 years, and don't want to stay. They'd obviously love to have you over some kid from Drexel, but having a high turnover in their firms/organizations is also pretty shitty. I think a well-crafted answer in an interview explaining why you want to stay in Philly long-term will do you just fine. And, yes, of course summering in Philly after 1L is a good start.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:08 am

justicefishy wrote:
banjo wrote:Thanks for taking questions, Penn students. Quick question: is the Philly market closed off to Penn students who didn't grow up in the region? Can working in Philly for 1-2 years or summering in Philly after 1L help establish ties to the city?


I'm wondering this too. I have semi-demonstrated ties (some family, went to a college in Philly) and would be interested in staying for a while. Would you say that would help me break in?

Working/going to undergrad in Philly and then making a conscious decision to come back for law school says a lot. But r6 is correct in that you will likely be grilled--even Philly natives are typically asked "Why Philly?" But as long as you have a good answer to back up your credentials, you should be fine. Philly firms are skeptical, but not to the point of outright paranoia.

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Pate
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Pate » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:17 am

I understand that Philly law firms are often apprehensive about hiring Penn grads for reasons regarding NYC. Why is that? Is the pay so much better in NYC? I have been confounded by this question, unless we are talking about bolting from a Philly mid-sized firm to BL.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:41 am

Pate wrote:I understand that Philly law firms are often apprehensive about hiring Penn grads for reasons regarding NYC. Why is that? Is the pay so much better in NYC? I have been confounded by this question, unless we are talking about bolting from a Philly mid-sized firm to BL.


I'll let the Philly kids answer this one more specifically, but it's not so much New York pays better (with cost of living it ain't much different). Philly firms are just skeptical of someone who could do tons of different things with a Penn degree, but decided to stay in Philly. New York/LA/Chicago/DC simply tend to have more attractive career ladders to reach top goals. Philly is an underrated market for great firm jobs and career options, but I think it still is quite a step behind the other cities insofar as what they offer you for your career.

Therefore, Philly firms are skeptical of a Penn student who has no obvious reason to stay in Philadelphia. The Drexel student can't get a job outside of Philadelphia--they know why the Drexel student is trying to work in Philadelphia. The Penn student CAN leave, and usually does. Even students who want to circle their careers back to their hometowns in Philly often start their legal careers in different markets in order to follow a more expansive career path.

This is, admittedly, just anecdotal evidence (a lot of it is probably straight from r6 and HW themselves). They can probably clarify/correct me, but I think I have the general idea.

With that said, if you have a good story/reason to tell an employer why you want to be in Philly for the next 10+ years, then you need to give it.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:00 pm

PennBull wrote:
Pate wrote:I understand that Philly law firms are often apprehensive about hiring Penn grads for reasons regarding NYC. Why is that? Is the pay so much better in NYC? I have been confounded by this question, unless we are talking about bolting from a Philly mid-sized firm to BL.


I'll let the Philly kids answer this one more specifically, but it's not so much New York pays better (with cost of living it ain't much different). Philly firms are just skeptical of someone who could do tons of different things with a Penn degree, but decided to stay in Philly. New York/LA/Chicago/DC simply tend to have more attractive career ladders to reach top goals. Philly is an underrated market for great firm jobs and career options, but I think it still is quite a step behind the other cities insofar as what they offer you for your career.

Therefore, Philly firms are skeptical of a Penn student who has no obvious reason to stay in Philadelphia. The Drexel student can't get a job outside of Philadelphia--they know why the Drexel student is trying to work in Philadelphia. The Penn student CAN leave, and usually does. Even students who want to circle their careers back to their hometowns in Philly often start their legal careers in different markets in order to follow a more expansive career path.

This is, admittedly, just anecdotal evidence (a lot of it is probably straight from r6 and HW themselves). They can probably clarify/correct me, but I think I have the general idea.

With that said, if you have a good story/reason to tell an employer why you want to be in Philly for the next 10+ years, then you need to give it.

You got it right for the most part. I will clarify that when adjusting for COL, Philly firm pay is markedly better than NY firm pay. As far as legal careers go, NY is more of a rat race and it's harder to distinguish yourself amongst the crowd and make partner. But exit options from NYC firms do tend to offer more flexibility. You'd also be making plenty bank regardless of whether you're a partner at Morgan or Skadden. But the bank at a Skadden-type firm will invariably be higher and the clients you interact with will be more powerful as well.

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Pate
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Pate » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:54 pm

Thank you all for the input. I guess in the next few days I will find out whether there’s a shot of working with at the upper crust clientele of Skadden or if I will be representing Willy and his gang who again tried to loot the meter maid.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:13 pm

Pate wrote:Thank you all for the input. I guess in the next few days I will find out whether there’s a shot of working with at the upper crust clientele of Skadden or if I will be representing Willy and his gang who again tried to loot the meter maid.


I'm not sure the two clienteles are really all that different. :)

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:11 pm

HeavenWood wrote:You got it right for the most part. I will clarify that when adjusting for COL, Philly firm pay is markedly better than NY firm pay. As far as legal careers go, NY is more of a rat race and it's harder to distinguish yourself amongst the crowd and make partner. But exit options from NYC firms do tend to offer more flexibility. You'd also be making plenty bank regardless of whether you're a partner at Morgan or Skadden. But the bank at a Skadden-type firm will invariably be higher and the clients you interact with will be more powerful as well.


NYC firms bill at a higher rate, have higher PPP, and make a lot more bank. Philly firms have PPP like 500k-800k? Not quite NYC range.

NYC firms allow you to work on higher caliber cases with a lot more money at stake. As such, you exit options may be better because your 3-5 year stint will be held at a higher regard.

For litigation, remember a trial generally run 2-3 years from pre-file to trial, so you might get 1-2 full length experience before you lateral. So the caliber of matters translate into better experience.

On the transaction side, most big deals are in NYC just because all the banks/money are there.

The downside is that you almost have to lateral because chances of making partner in those firms are laughable.

iusedtolurk
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby iusedtolurk » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:07 pm

What do we think the law review grade cut off is (calculated GPA-wise, not class % wise)? And when will we know which Journal we're on?

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:00 pm

iusedtolurk wrote:What do we think the law review grade cut off is (calculated GPA-wise, not class % wise)? And when will we know which Journal we're on?


No one can possibly answer the gpa question since the formula to calculate it is a closely guarded secret.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:02 pm

Veyron wrote:
iusedtolurk wrote:What do we think the law review grade cut off is (calculated GPA-wise, not class % wise)? And when will we know which Journal we're on?


No one can possibly answer the gpa question since the formula to calculate it is a closely guarded secret.


What about the 2nd part? When do we find out?

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:06 pm

PennBull wrote:
Veyron wrote:
iusedtolurk wrote:What do we think the law review grade cut off is (calculated GPA-wise, not class % wise)? And when will we know which Journal we're on?


No one can possibly answer the gpa question since the formula to calculate it is a closely guarded secret.


What about the 2nd part? When do we find out?


Around the time you bid.

cahall89
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby cahall89 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:01 pm

What's the dating scene like at Penn? Do a lot of people come in with non law bf/gfs? Of the single crowd do most just hook up with other students? Are there actual lastin relationships or is it just drunken bar review nights?

I don't really know how to meet people in law school and I can't imagine anything substantial really comes of law school dating since everyone is so busy and i hear it's like high school with respect to drama and gossip

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:23 am

cahall89 wrote:What's the dating scene like at Penn? Do a lot of people come in with non law bf/gfs? Of the single crowd do most just hook up with other students? Are there actual lastin relationships or is it just drunken bar review nights?

I don't really know how to meet people in law school and I can't imagine anything substantial really comes of law school dating since everyone is so busy and i hear it's like high school with respect to drama and gossip


This seems legitimate.

swoozie
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby swoozie » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:59 am

Can anyone tell me more about the public transportation? I'm looking at a place for housing that seems great, but it's a bit farther than I would want to walk every day (or in extreme weather conditions, or if I'm just feeling lazy). I see Penn shuttle and trolley stops mentioned and read a bit about them, but I still don't have a good idea of how easy/practical it is.

Also, do you think it detracts if you aren't living so close to the law school? I don't want to live in the on-campus housing.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:17 am

swoozie wrote:Can anyone tell me more about the public transportation? I'm looking at a place for housing that seems great, but it's a bit farther than I would want to walk every day (or in extreme weather conditions, or if I'm just feeling lazy). I see Penn shuttle and trolley stops mentioned and read a bit about them, but I still don't have a good idea of how easy/practical it is.

Also, do you think it detracts if you aren't living so close to the law school? I don't want to live in the on-campus housing.

Don't live in the on-campus housing. It's overpriced and absolutely abhorrent. The hallways smell like stale garbage and fresh urine, no joke.

Where exactly are you looking?

swoozie
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby swoozie » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:41 am

HeavenWood wrote:
swoozie wrote:Can anyone tell me more about the public transportation? I'm looking at a place for housing that seems great, but it's a bit farther than I would want to walk every day (or in extreme weather conditions, or if I'm just feeling lazy). I see Penn shuttle and trolley stops mentioned and read a bit about them, but I still don't have a good idea of how easy/practical it is.

Also, do you think it detracts if you aren't living so close to the law school? I don't want to live in the on-campus housing.

Don't live in the on-campus housing. It's overpriced and absolutely abhorrent. The hallways smell like stale garbage and fresh urine, no joke.

Where exactly are you looking?

Yeah, I saw the $800/month or whatever for a dorm room with shared bathroom and no kitchen and....no.

It's a bit less than 1.5 miles from the law school, I think, by walking. (I thought it was more, I think I checked driving distance the first time. Actually, I just realized there's a public transit options on google maps. What is this wizardry??) That makes me feel a lot better but I guess I'd still like to hear some thoughts on transportation/distance from the school. Google maps says there's a stop right there that goes to 36th St (for $2 each way).

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:45 am

swoozie wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
swoozie wrote:Can anyone tell me more about the public transportation? I'm looking at a place for housing that seems great, but it's a bit farther than I would want to walk every day (or in extreme weather conditions, or if I'm just feeling lazy). I see Penn shuttle and trolley stops mentioned and read a bit about them, but I still don't have a good idea of how easy/practical it is.

Also, do you think it detracts if you aren't living so close to the law school? I don't want to live in the on-campus housing.

Don't live in the on-campus housing. It's overpriced and absolutely abhorrent. The hallways smell like stale garbage and fresh urine, no joke.

Where exactly are you looking?

Yeah, I saw the $800/month or whatever for a dorm room with shared bathroom and no kitchen and....no.

It's a bit less than 1.5 miles from the law school, I think, by walking. (I thought it was more, I think I checked driving distance the first time. Actually, I just realized there's a public transit options on google maps. What is this wizardry??) That makes me feel a lot better but I guess I'd still like to hear some thoughts on transportation/distance from the school. Google maps says there's a stop right there that goes to 36th St (for $2 each way).

1.5 miles where? Center City? West Philly? Some kind of intersection would be helpful.

swoozie
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby swoozie » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:59 am

Sorry about that! It's by one of the S. 47th St. stops. I can PM the exact address if needed.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:03 am

swoozie wrote:Sorry about that! It's by one of the S. 47th St. stops. I can PM the exact address if needed.


Yeah, the trolley going down Baltimore is pretty solid. Just gotta stand on the corner and wave it down. Also, you can get tokens that cost less than $2 a piece if you buy a bunch at a time.

Public transpo in Philly I found to be very good.

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2012prospective
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby 2012prospective » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:11 am

I'm also wondering about the ease of commuting to Penn Law from off campus. I'm thinking of living around 22nd and Cherry, and it seems like there is a 24/7 trolley that goes from 22nd and Market basically to Penn Law. Is the trolley safe/ convenient to take from Penn Law to Center City late at night (like after midnight)?

Also, is there a refrigerator/freezer and microwave at Penn Law that 1Ls can use? I'm wondering for purposes of storing lunch and maybe heating up frozen dinners if I stay at the law school late.

One last question: do students living off campus generally go home at dinner and not return? Or is there a sizable group that goes home for dinner and returns to study in the library?

swoozie
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby swoozie » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:19 pm

PennBull wrote:
swoozie wrote:Sorry about that! It's by one of the S. 47th St. stops. I can PM the exact address if needed.


Yeah, the trolley going down Baltimore is pretty solid. Just gotta stand on the corner and wave it down. Also, you can get tokens that cost less than $2 a piece if you buy a bunch at a time.

Public transpo in Philly I found to be very good.

Thanks!!
the PennPass for SEPTA looks decent, too.




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