Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:57 am

JDizzle2015 wrote:Any comments on the quality of Sansom? I want to live as close to school as possible since east coast winters frighten me... :oops: Domus sounds/looks amazing but forking out $2,300-$2,600/mo for a one bedroom just seems a bit excessive.


Sucks but you can't beat the location.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:23 am

Median. What is it? Inquiring minds want to know. Word on the street is that it corresponds to three B+'s and a B.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:17 pm

HeavenWood wrote:Median. What is it? Inquiring minds want to know. Word on the street is that it corresponds to three B+'s and a B.


If you put in the grade distribution for one class like this (from A to C)
12/18/28/28/10/4 = 3.26
15/15/30/30/10/0 = 3.32
10/15/30/30/10/5 = 3.22

So aggregate the percentages (if all samples random, of course they are not) then it would be between a 3.0 to a 3.33, closer to 3.33, let's call it 3.2. I think the middle 1/3 might be really closely packed, so maybe there isn't a point to figure out the median, median range may be more useful.

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JDizzle2015
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby JDizzle2015 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:25 pm

Veyron wrote:
JDizzle2015 wrote:Any comments on the quality of Sansom? I want to live as close to school as possible since east coast winters frighten me... :oops: Domus sounds/looks amazing but forking out $2,300-$2,600/mo for a one bedroom just seems a bit excessive.


Sucks but you can't beat the location.

I guess I expected that but I'm still disappointed. There isn't a co-op/frat house/Mich's PhiD equivalent at Penn, is there?

Swordsman
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Swordsman » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:47 pm

Are any 2L or 3L students still waiting on grades to post?

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dabomb75
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby dabomb75 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:36 pm

r6_philly wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Median. What is it? Inquiring minds want to know. Word on the street is that it corresponds to three B+'s and a B.


If you put in the grade distribution for one class like this (from A to C)
12/18/28/28/10/4 = 3.26
15/15/30/30/10/0 = 3.32
10/15/30/30/10/5 = 3.22

So aggregate the percentages (if all samples random, of course they are not) then it would be between a 3.0 to a 3.33, closer to 3.33, let's call it 3.2. I think the middle 1/3 might be really closely packed, so maybe there isn't a point to figure out the median, median range may be more useful.


Cool, thanks for this. There's no way to know what bottom 1/3 and top 1/3 approximately align with is there?

Rickshaw of the Law
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Rickshaw of the Law » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:41 am

Does anyone know how common the A+ grade actually is, in both 1L and upper level classes?

jasonxu89
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby jasonxu89 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:00 am

Rickshaw of the Law wrote:Does anyone know how common the A+ grade actually is, in both 1L and upper level classes?


happened to be reading this while open this thread.

(Penn portfolio-Essentials pp 14)
A 15
A- 15
B+ 27.5
B- 27.5
C 0-5

A+, C, and F are discretionary.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:01 am

jasonxu89 wrote:
Rickshaw of the Law wrote:Does anyone know how common the A+ grade actually is, in both 1L and upper level classes?


happened to be reading this while open this thread.

(Penn portfolio-Essentials pp 14)
A 15
A- 15
B+ 27.5
B- 27.5
C 0-5

A+, C, and F are discretionary.

What about regular B's?

jasonxu89
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby jasonxu89 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:30 am

HeavenWood wrote:
jasonxu89 wrote:
Rickshaw of the Law wrote:Does anyone know how common the A+ grade actually is, in both 1L and upper level classes?


happened to be reading this while open this thread.

(Penn portfolio-Essentials pp 14)
A 15
A- 15
B+ 27.5
B- 27.5
C 0-5

A+, C, and F are discretionary.

What about regular B's?


B 27.5
B- 10

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:32 am

JDizzle2015 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
JDizzle2015 wrote:Any comments on the quality of Sansom? I want to live as close to school as possible since east coast winters frighten me... :oops: Domus sounds/looks amazing but forking out $2,300-$2,600/mo for a one bedroom just seems a bit excessive.


Sucks but you can't beat the location.

I guess I expected that but I'm still disappointed. There isn't a co-op/frat house/Mich's PhiD equivalent at Penn, is there?


Would be nice.

penn0Ler
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby penn0Ler » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:34 am

dabomb75 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Median. What is it? Inquiring minds want to know. Word on the street is that it corresponds to three B+'s and a B.


If you put in the grade distribution for one class like this (from A to C)
12/18/28/28/10/4 = 3.26
15/15/30/30/10/0 = 3.32
10/15/30/30/10/5 = 3.22

So aggregate the percentages (if all samples random, of course they are not) then it would be between a 3.0 to a 3.33, closer to 3.33, let's call it 3.2. I think the middle 1/3 might be really closely packed, so maybe there isn't a point to figure out the median, median range may be more useful.


Cool, thanks for this.]There's no way to know what bottom 1/3 and top 1/3 approximately align with is there?[/quote]

Also curious about this. Any ideas what a 3.67 (assuming that's an A-) would translate to in terms of approx rank? I'm hearing everything from top 15% to top 1/3.

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Wholigan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Wholigan » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:57 am

penn0Ler wrote:Also curious about this. Any ideas what a 3.67 (assuming that's an A-) would translate to in terms of approx rank? I'm hearing everything from top 15% to top 1/3.



Well, I believe it's fairly well-established that a 3.6 is usually around the cutoff for cum laude (top 30%), but that allows for some 2L/3L uncurved classes. That means top 1/3 has to be lower than 3.6 for 1L. It's going to be harder for employers to figure out what is top 1/3 and bottom 1/3 than it is for you - that's why they do it.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:08 pm

-
Last edited by Veyron on Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:21 pm

It stands to reason that between 2.67 - 3 (closer to 3, so maybe 2.9) would be bottom 15%. I think straight Bs should be solidly in the middle 1/3.

Straight A- can be anywhere between 25% to 10% I suppose. Straight B+ can be just above median to top 1/3.

I think they don't rank so most of the students can have a shot at most of the jobs.

run26.2
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby run26.2 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:42 pm

None of you guys are correct about how they calculate rankings at Penn. It is not as simple as a GPA calculation.

penn0Ler
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby penn0Ler » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:05 pm

run26.2 wrote:None of you guys are correct about how they calculate rankings at Penn. It is not as simple as a GPA calculation.


So then how does it work, at least for 1L grades?

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:22 pm

run26.2 wrote:None of you guys are correct about how they calculate rankings at Penn. It is not as simple as a GPA calculation.


Do they actually calculate rank?

run26.2
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby run26.2 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:25 pm

penn0Ler wrote:
run26.2 wrote:None of you guys are correct about how they calculate rankings at Penn. It is not as simple as a GPA calculation.


So then how does it work, at least for 1L grades?

I'm not going to say it outright, but if you dig, and make a few inferences, you should be able to figure it out.

run26.2
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby run26.2 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:39 pm

r6_philly wrote:
run26.2 wrote:None of you guys are correct about how they calculate rankings at Penn. It is not as simple as a GPA calculation.


Do they actually calculate rank?

They have to to determine Latin honors.

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Wholigan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Wholigan » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:41 pm

run26.2 wrote:
penn0Ler wrote:
run26.2 wrote:None of you guys are correct about how they calculate rankings at Penn. It is not as simple as a GPA calculation.


So then how does it work, at least for 1L grades?

I'm not going to say it outright, but if you dig, and make a few inferences, you should be able to figure it out.


I think the method for calculating graduation honors is supposed to be based on a formula where your rank is based on how your grades differ from the class medians in the classes you actually took. Sort of like a ballpark-adjusted ERA, for you baseball fans.

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Georgiana
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Georgiana » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:54 pm

run26.2 wrote:
penn0Ler wrote:
run26.2 wrote:None of you guys are correct about how they calculate rankings at Penn. It is not as simple as a GPA calculation.


So then how does it work, at least for 1L grades?

I'm not going to say it outright, but if you dig, and make a few inferences, you should be able to figure it out.

Calculations for honors at graduation (and therefore "ranking" students) is pretty complex and kind of like a black box. Once you get out of 1L you start to have a lot of choice in what you take. Some people want the best chance at A's so they take seminar classes and classes outside of the law school (trying not to take big classes like evidence, corps, fed courts etc). Other people are gunning for clerkships or think they need x, y, z class for the bar exam and take the big doctrinal classes (see list above). Other people try to do as many externships, clinics, and non "class" credits as possible. All of these things are weighted differently by the registrar when it comes time to figure out where everyone stands, not to mention the fact that transfer students count for figuring out honors, and their 1L grades aren't in their calculation. Long story short, you won't really know where you stand until graduation, and at that point you (hopefully) already have a job or clerkship lined up.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:56 pm

run26.2 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
run26.2 wrote:None of you guys are correct about how they calculate rankings at Penn. It is not as simple as a GPA calculation.


Do they actually calculate rank?

They have to to determine Latin honors.


Makes sense. I did see the distribution for different classes, and even 1Ls have different curve/distribution for the mandatory classes. A couple of my classes actually had less generous distributions.

But for employers, I guess the general range is sufficient?

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:00 am

So what's better to have - consistent grades or mixture of good and not so good? Does it help a lot to have an A, or does it hurt a lot to have an B-? I know it's too general of a question, but I just want some opinions/viewpoints.

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Wholigan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Wholigan » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:05 am

r6_philly wrote:So what's better to have - consistent grades or mixture of good and not so good? Does it help a lot to have an A, or does it hurt a lot to have an B-? I know it's too general of a question, but I just want some opinions/viewpoints.


For OCI and clerkships, my understanding is they are taking out a calculator and figuring out what your GPA is, as if they were calculated like other law schools do. So it probably doesn't matter what the distribution is for those purposes, outside of the extent some employers or judges might like higher grades in certain classes. As I recall, one employer at OCI even posted in their bid area that they want a certain GPA, notwithstanding the fact that the school does not have GPAs.




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