Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:20 pm

Schang1 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Schang1 wrote:This question probably has been answered... But could i ask one last time? I currently have 2 addendas for gpa and lsat but would love to submit a diversity statement and the 5 year essay too. That gives me 4 in total and i dont know if that would overwhelm them... Any help would be great.. I have everything ready to send in as ED but i just dont know which documents i should really submit :-( my numbers are low 3.4/169 but im willing to give a shot because penn is the only school i want to really attend.

Are you at least a semi-URM? Not to dash your hopes and dreams, but barring minority status or amazing softs, you're better off ED'ing elsewhere. Perhaps Michigan?

Then again, if you're amenable to a retake, you'd have an infinitely better shot if you literally scored one point higher on the LSAT.


What is a semi-URM? I'm an Asian female...

Namely "other Hispanics."

TLSNYC
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby TLSNYC » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:05 pm

So...are all 1L electives created equally? Speaking w/ some upper clansmen, I got the impression that some professors tend to grade on an easier curve than others. True? False?

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:12 pm

TLSNYC wrote:So...are all 1L electives created equally? Speaking w/ some upper clansmen, I got the impression that some professors tend to grade on an easier curve than others. True? False?


Are 1L electives all graded on a curve? Do they really grade Law and Society in Japan on a curve? I should go ask the registrar.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:14 pm

puppleberry finn wrote:I know you said that Penn students tend to self-select away from Philly, but do those who wish to stay in town find it difficult? Are there a decent number of local firms at OCI?


Penn crushes for Philly biglaw.

jim-green
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby jim-green » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:26 pm

How do science majors at Penn who want to do patent law place in DC? Do many DC firms recruit at Penn?

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johnnyutah
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby johnnyutah » Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:55 am

Veyron wrote:
puppleberry finn wrote:I know you said that Penn students tend to self-select away from Philly, but do those who wish to stay in town find it difficult? Are there a decent number of local firms at OCI?

Penn crushes for Philly biglaw.

That being said, and you're still not guaranteed, and Penn may be a handicap in Philly outside of BigLaw and Federal clerkships.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:10 am

johnnyutah wrote:
Veyron wrote:
puppleberry finn wrote:I know you said that Penn students tend to self-select away from Philly, but do those who wish to stay in town find it difficult? Are there a decent number of local firms at OCI?

Penn crushes for Philly biglaw.

That being said, and you're still not guaranteed, and Penn may be a handicap in Philly outside of BigLaw and Federal clerkships.

Keep in mind though, "Philly biglaw" includes some larger midlaws.

jim-green
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby jim-green » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:46 am

johnnyutah wrote:
Veyron wrote:
puppleberry finn wrote:I know you said that Penn students tend to self-select away from Philly, but do those who wish to stay in town find it difficult? Are there a decent number of local firms at OCI?

Penn crushes for Philly biglaw.

That being said, and you're still not guaranteed, and Penn may be a handicap in Philly outside of BigLaw and Federal clerkships.
How is this possible? Penn is ranked 7 and is by far the best law school in PA not just Phila.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby johnnyutah » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:05 am

jim-green wrote:
johnnyutah wrote:
Veyron wrote:
puppleberry finn wrote:I know you said that Penn students tend to self-select away from Philly, but do those who wish to stay in town find it difficult? Are there a decent number of local firms at OCI?

Penn crushes for Philly biglaw.

That being said, and you're still not guaranteed, and Penn may be a handicap in Philly outside of BigLaw and Federal clerkships.
How is this possible? Penn is ranked 7 and is by far the best law school in PA not just Phila.

Penn students are notorious for using Philadelphia jobs to get a little experience, and then leaving to go to New York or Washington D.C. Employers don't appreciate this. The ones who don't have the resources to compete with NYC firms may be reluctant to train an associate who they figure is just using their firm and their city as a stepping stone, anyway. Also, in the Philadelphia public interest world, I get the impression that some employers think Penn students are arrogant, high-maintenance or aren't good at dealing effectively with poor clients.

More generally, you gotta realize that outside of BigLaw, legal hiring takes place primarily through personal connections. You could go to Yale and it wouldn't necessarily help you get a job with a small law firm in Philly if you aren't known to someone who works there. Ultimately, outside of OCI, what Penn proves to employers is that you're smart. That's great, and it's an advantage, but that's far from the only criterion that smaller employers use to hire.
Last edited by johnnyutah on Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

jim-green
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby jim-green » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:20 am

johnnyutah wrote:Penn students are notorious for using Philadelphia jobs to get a little experience, and then leaving to go to New York or Washington D.C. Employers don't appreciate this. The ones who don't have the resources to compete with NYC firms may be reluctant to train an associate who they figure is just using their firm and their city as a stepping stone, anyway. Also, in the Philadelphia public interest world, I get the impression that some employers think Penn students are high-maintenance or aren't good at dealing effectively with poor clients.

More generally, you gotta realize that outside of BigLaw, legal hiring takes place primarily through personal connections. You could go to Yale and it wouldn't necessarily help you get a job with a small law firm in Philly if you aren't known to someone who works there.
Thanks.

run26.2
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby run26.2 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:45 am

jim-green wrote:How do science majors at Penn who want to do patent law place in DC? Do many DC firms recruit at Penn?

As far as I can tell, there are only one or two people each year that try to go to DC, usually to do patent litigation. Others go to Northern or Southern California or New York. I'm sure there are others I don't know as well. That's not to say that people are trying and not succeeding, I just don't think that many people have the coincidental interests of patent law and DC. I did and was able to get several offers there. Having a connection helps.

Also, if you're planning to do patent litigation, a science background is not necessary. Many firms that don't do prosecution but have well-known patent litigation practices recruit at Penn, such as Kirkland, Weil, and Latham. All the other big name firms with offices in DC also recruit here, and many of those have patent litigation departments.

If you're interested in firms that do both prosecution and litigation, Finnegan, Fish, and Fitzpatrick all recruit here.

With all the options, it would be hard not to get something, unless you had no connection and either your grades were terrible or you interviewed poorly.

PM if you have specific questions.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:22 am

run26.2 wrote:
jim-green wrote:How do science majors at Penn who want to do patent law place in DC? Do many DC firms recruit at Penn?

As far as I can tell, there are only one or two people each year that try to go to DC, usually to do patent litigation. Others go to Northern or Southern California or New York. I'm sure there are others I don't know as well. That's not to say that people are trying and not succeeding, I just don't think that many people have the coincidental interests of patent law and DC. I did and was able to get several offers there. Having a connection helps.

Also, if you're planning to do patent litigation, a science background is not necessary. Many firms that don't do prosecution but have well-known patent litigation practices recruit at Penn, such as Kirkland, Weil, and Latham. All the other big name firms with offices in DC also recruit here, and many of those have patent litigation departments.

If you're interested in firms that do both prosecution and litigation, Finnegan, Fish, and Fitzpatrick all recruit here.

With all the options, it would be hard not to get something, unless you had no connection and either your grades were terrible or you interviewed poorly.

PM if you have specific questions.


You mean only 1 or 2 people a year try to go to DC for IP, because a shitton of kids try to go to DC. I'd estimate its a first choice for around 15-20% of the class.

run26.2
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby run26.2 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:39 pm

Veyron wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
jim-green wrote:How do science majors at Penn who want to do patent law place in DC? Do many DC firms recruit at Penn?

As far as I can tell, there are only one or two people each year that try to go to DC, usually to do patent litigation. Others go to Northern or Southern California or New York. I'm sure there are others I don't know as well. That's not to say that people are trying and not succeeding, I just don't think that many people have the coincidental interests of patent law and DC. I did and was able to get several offers there. Having a connection helps.

Also, if you're planning to do patent litigation, a science background is not necessary. Many firms that don't do prosecution but have well-known patent litigation practices recruit at Penn, such as Kirkland, Weil, and Latham. All the other big name firms with offices in DC also recruit here, and many of those have patent litigation departments.

If you're interested in firms that do both prosecution and litigation, Finnegan, Fish, and Fitzpatrick all recruit here.

With all the options, it would be hard not to get something, unless you had no connection and either your grades were terrible or you interviewed poorly.

PM if you have specific questions.


You mean only 1 or 2 people a year try to go to DC for IP, because a shitton of kids try to go to DC. I'd estimate its a first choice for around 15-20% of the class.

This should have been clear from the question that that is what I meant. But to be absolutely clear, yes, I meant very few each year try for DC to do "patent law." 2 per year may even be an overestimation.

And yes, lots of people try for and successfully land SA positions in DC.

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Strange
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Strange » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:57 pm

Schang1 wrote:This question probably has been answered... But could i ask one last time? I currently have 2 addendas for gpa and lsat but would love to submit a diversity statement and the 5 year essay too. That gives me 4 in total and i dont know if that would overwhelm them... Any help would be great.. I have everything ready to send in as ED but i just dont know which documents i should really submit :-( my numbers are low 3.4/169 but im willing to give a shot because penn is the only school i want to really attend.


Combine your addendas and just submit the 5 year essay IMO... unless you have a super convincing diversity statement. If it's about how asian you are it may not be that compelling :D But I agree with your numbers it will be tough to get in

Schang1
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Schang1 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:01 pm

Strange wrote:
Schang1 wrote:This question probably has been answered... But could i ask one last time? I currently have 2 addendas for gpa and lsat but would love to submit a diversity statement and the 5 year essay too. That gives me 4 in total and i dont know if that would overwhelm them... Any help would be great.. I have everything ready to send in as ED but i just dont know which documents i should really submit :-( my numbers are low 3.4/169 but im willing to give a shot because penn is the only school i want to really attend.


Combine your addendas and just submit the 5 year essay IMO... unless you have a super convincing diversity statement. If it's about how asian you are it may not be that compelling :D But I agree with your numbers it will be tough to get in


Oopsies.. I already submitted it and I think my DS is actually not compelling lol oh well.. can't do much about it now. :oops:

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dabomb75
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby dabomb75 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:51 pm

before the crowds of 0Ls start coming in with application questions (which I'll stick around to help out with answering), I thought I'd get some advice from the upperclassmen about spring 1L classes.

The REGULATORY ELECTIVES are:
Administrative Law (Lee)
Administrative Law (Adler)
Bankruptcy (Skeel)
Environmental Law (Orts)
Legislation (Ruger)

The PERSPECTIVES ELECTIVES are:
Advanced Contracts (Kraus)
Introduction to Intellectual Property Law and Policy (Abrams)
Law and Society in Japan (Feldman + Kanda)
Legal Responses to Inequality (Lesnick)
Philosophy of Law (???)
Public International Law (Burke-White)

Right now I'm thinking about Legal Responses to Inequality, and Bankruptcy, but I'm not sure what my backups for both categories should be.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:55 pm

dabomb75 wrote:before the crowds of 0Ls start coming in with application questions (which I'll stick around to help out with answering), I thought I'd get some advice from the upperclassmen about spring 1L classes.

The REGULATORY ELECTIVES are:
Administrative Law (Lee)
Administrative Law (Adler)
Bankruptcy (Skeel)
Environmental Law (Orts)
Legislation (Ruger)

The PERSPECTIVES ELECTIVES are:
Advanced Contracts (Kraus)
Introduction to Intellectual Property Law and Policy (Abrams)
Law and Society in Japan (Feldman + Kanda)
Legal Responses to Inequality (Lesnick)
Philosophy of Law (???)
Public International Law (Burke-White)

Right now I'm thinking about Legal Responses to Inequality, and Bankruptcy, but I'm not sure what my backups for both categories should be.

Public International Law and Law and Society in Japan have really sweet curves (60+% get A's).

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dabomb75
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby dabomb75 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:53 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
dabomb75 wrote:before the crowds of 0Ls start coming in with application questions (which I'll stick around to help out with answering), I thought I'd get some advice from the upperclassmen about spring 1L classes.

The REGULATORY ELECTIVES are:
Administrative Law (Lee)
Administrative Law (Adler)
Bankruptcy (Skeel)
Environmental Law (Orts)
Legislation (Ruger)

The PERSPECTIVES ELECTIVES are:
Advanced Contracts (Kraus)
Introduction to Intellectual Property Law and Policy (Abrams)
Law and Society in Japan (Feldman + Kanda)
Legal Responses to Inequality (Lesnick)
Philosophy of Law (???)
Public International Law (Burke-White)

Right now I'm thinking about Legal Responses to Inequality, and Bankruptcy, but I'm not sure what my backups for both categories should be.

Public International Law and Law and Society in Japan have really sweet curves (60+% get A's).


scratch that. I'll be applying for bankruptcy, and 1 backup, and public international law, with law and society in Japan as a backup

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Georgiana
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Georgiana » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:38 pm

dabomb75 wrote:before the crowds of 0Ls start coming in with application questions (which I'll stick around to help out with answering), I thought I'd get some advice from the upperclassmen about spring 1L classes.

The REGULATORY ELECTIVES are:
Administrative Law (Lee)
Administrative Law (Adler)
Bankruptcy (Skeel)
Environmental Law (Orts)
Legislation (Ruger)

The PERSPECTIVES ELECTIVES are:
Advanced Contracts (Kraus)
Introduction to Intellectual Property Law and Policy (Abrams)
Law and Society in Japan (Feldman + Kanda)
Legal Responses to Inequality (Lesnick)
Philosophy of Law (???)
Public International Law (Burke-White)

Right now I'm thinking about Legal Responses to Inequality, and Bankruptcy, but I'm not sure what my backups for both categories should be.

Now that I'm working I really really realllllly recommend taking Bankruptcy at some point if you have an interest in doing corporate work... it comes up all the time and when other corporate things are slow Bankruptcy always pulls people in.

Ruger is really nice but I didn't have him for legislation. I like enviro (didn't take it with Orts) but unless you're into it you're better off taking admin. Lee set her class up a little more like college/HS when I sat in for the day, there was group work... and that was the end of that class for me. Adler is supposed to be great.

Burke-White is probably good if you're interested in Pub Int'l. Make sure you look at the curve for BW specifically if you're going to rely on curves in picking a class... he hasn't been doing much teaching at Penn for the past 2 years-ish. Lesnick's class is basically a joke and if you can pretend to care about inequality and get your hands on a couple papers that got A's in the past you're good to go.

Philo of Law sounds crappy... the Japan class could be fun and won't have a ton of people in it.

czelede
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby czelede » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:27 pm

Re: electives. What are the chances that one doesn't get their first OR second choice? I ask because I'm thinking about taking bankruptcy, but I hear that there are only 30 spots for 1Ls. I would be happy with my second choice, but really prefer not to have to take any of the other courses. Would it be better just to put my second choice first?

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Tim0thy222 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:45 pm

Question for Penn Students:

How much fun are Penn students? Based on what I've read on TLS, UVA students are really proud of softball and social events, but I don't see much discussion of Penn's social life.

It seems I'd get a great education and have roughly equivalent job prospects from either school, but say I want to "work hard, play hard," so to speak. You know, I'm going to be there for 3 years, 3 years of my 20's no less, and I'd like to enjoy them. Do Penn students work hard and play hard? Or do they just work hard and then work some more?

Since I'd be moving to either school from the west coast, I'm not going to have any friends in either city at first, so I'm hoping to go someplace where I can make some friends in the law school, instead of just seeing them in class before we return to our respective study caves.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:19 am

Tim0thy222 wrote:Question for Penn Students:

How much fun are Penn students? Based on what I've read on TLS, UVA students are really proud of softball and social events, but I don't see much discussion of Penn's social life.

It seems I'd get a great education and have roughly equivalent job prospects from either school, but say I want to "work hard, play hard," so to speak. You know, I'm going to be there for 3 years, 3 years of my 20's no less, and I'd like to enjoy them. Do Penn students work hard and play hard? Or do they just work hard and then work some more?

Since I'd be moving to either school from the west coast, I'm not going to have any friends in either city at first, so I'm hoping to go someplace where I can make some friends in the law school, instead of just seeing them in class before we return to our respective study caves.


Penn is "the social ivy." The school is, however, more nerdy than fratty. Whether that is a good thing is a matter of preference. The administration makes a strong effort to provide students with far more free booze than is prudent.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Tim0thy222 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:37 am

Veyron wrote:
Tim0thy222 wrote:Question for Penn Students:

How much fun are Penn students? Based on what I've read on TLS, UVA students are really proud of softball and social events, but I don't see much discussion of Penn's social life.

It seems I'd get a great education and have roughly equivalent job prospects from either school, but say I want to "work hard, play hard," so to speak. You know, I'm going to be there for 3 years, 3 years of my 20's no less, and I'd like to enjoy them. Do Penn students work hard and play hard? Or do they just work hard and then work some more?

Since I'd be moving to either school from the west coast, I'm not going to have any friends in either city at first, so I'm hoping to go someplace where I can make some friends in the law school, instead of just seeing them in class before we return to our respective study caves.


Penn is "the social ivy." The school is, however, more nerdy than fratty. Whether that is a good thing is a matter of preference. The administration makes a strong effort to provide students with far more free booze than is prudent.


Thanks for the response. However, I'm not sure I understand the concept of too much free booze :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I probably would prefer that it doesn't lean too fratty. On the spectrum of nerdy to fratty, I'm probably closer to the nerdy end.

Really I would be satisfied with some social events for law students once in a while, and groups of friends that like to go out and do things on the weekend at least semi-regularly. After thinking about it a little more, I said "party hard", but on a wild night I usually end up having a few drinks and heading home by 12 or 1, as opposed to getting smashed at a club or a house party until 3am, so maybe Penn's social life is sufficient and UVA's is a bit more than I need.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:08 am

I wouldn't put social life high on your list of priorities. As a 1L, it matters little. As a 2L, you probably sick of school anyway. :mrgreen:

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johnnyutah
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby johnnyutah » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:03 pm

Tim0thy222 wrote:How much fun are Penn students?

Almost all of the friends I made in law school were outside of Penn or the legal field generally. This was a specific choice, however. A lot of my classmates seemed to go out a lot and to be very social.




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