Penn Students Taking Questions Forum

[James Bond]

Questions can be about anything, not just Penn.

How does it feel to be in a city that's throwing away the world series?

[Georgiana]

Questions can be about anything, not just Penn.

How does it feel to be in a city that's throwing away the world series?

Philly fans are loud... they bother me when I'm sleeping/trying to sleep.

I'm not a baseball fan so other than "consoling" friends for the losses, I don't really care.

[ughOSU]

Cole Hamels' pitch selection went to shit in the 5th inning. I honestly have no idea why he would decide to throw 3 shitty curveballs to Swisher, and then start Pettite off with a shitty curveball as well. Awful. e: that fastball to A-Rod was also questionable, but i'll let him slide on that one.

Anyway, I do have a relevant question: Georgiana, you mentioned earlier that you anticipate the 2010 OCI to be very tough generally. What's your feeling about the 2011 OCI (when those of us applying now will be 2Ls trying to get SAs)? Do you think that there will be a shake-up in the hiring in BigLaw (i.e., not hiring people 2 years in advance)?

Thanks

[adamlippes]

Anyway, I do have a relevant question: Georgiana, you mentioned earlier that you anticipate the 2010 OCI to be very tough generally. What's your feeling about the 2011 OCI (when those of us applying now will be 2Ls trying to get SAs)? Do you think that there will be a shake-up in the hiring in BigLaw (i.e., not hiring people 2 years in advance)?

I don't understand how you could possibly expect anyone to answer this question with any degree of accuracy or reason.

[GeePee]

Anyway, I do have a relevant question: Georgiana, you mentioned earlier that you anticipate the 2010 OCI to be very tough generally. What's your feeling about the 2011 OCI (when those of us applying now will be 2Ls trying to get SAs)? Do you think that there will be a shake-up in the hiring in BigLaw (i.e., not hiring people 2 years in advance)?

I don't understand how could possible expect anyone to answer this question with any degree of accuracy or reason.

Yeah... I'm not sure how anyone, 0L, 2L, associate, law firm partner, or economist, could predict what the economy and hiring capacity of the V100 or NLJ250, for that matter, will be 21 months from now. Even the 9 months from now prediction is a vaguely educated guess at best.

[ughOSU]

Anyway, I do have a relevant question: Georgiana, you mentioned earlier that you anticipate the 2010 OCI to be very tough generally. What's your feeling about the 2011 OCI (when those of us applying now will be 2Ls trying to get SAs)? Do you think that there will be a shake-up in the hiring in BigLaw (i.e., not hiring people 2 years in advance)?

I don't understand how could possible expect anyone to answer this question with any degree of accuracy or reason.

Yeah... I'm not sure how anyone, 0L, 2L, associate, law firm partner, or economist, could predict what the economy and hiring capacity of the V100 or NLJ250, for that matter, will be 21 months from now. Even the 9 months from now prediction is a vaguely educated guess at best.

Which is why I asked what her "feeling" was, and not what would happen for sure. She had some pretty relevant and intelligent insights to the whole 2010 OCI thing and I respect her opinion on the matter. The fact that she is in school and is going through the process means she almost surely knows more than me about it. I'm terribly sorry that I'm attempting using this forum to take in new insights to the legal profession and job placement.

[Georgiana]

Anyway, I do have a relevant question: Georgiana, you mentioned earlier that you anticipate the 2010 OCI to be very tough generally. What's your feeling about the 2011 OCI (when those of us applying now will be 2Ls trying to get SAs)? Do you think that there will be a shake-up in the hiring in BigLaw (i.e., not hiring people 2 years in advance)?

Thanks

DISCLAIMER: ****Pure speculation**** I have no experience in business or economics. My thoughts are just that... thoughts.

I think that the Biglaw model has to change and eventually it will. Hiring people 2 years in advance with those people expecting to get full time offers is silly. 2Ls still need legal experience over the summer so the summer associate gigs probably wont stop completely, but I have a feeling it will become less of a sure thing that you'll get a full time offer at the end of summer. 3L recruiting will increased and being "no offered" won't have the stigma it has today. 2L summer will be for experience, not for permanent employment. There are arguments that go the other way... SAs are expensive. The amount of time attorneys take doing recruiting and helping SAs over the summer adds up to a lot of lost money. The money spend on lunches, dinners, events, all lost. Why spend so much on someone if you're just going to send them away at the end of the summer. The pay for a summer will probably decrease. No more getting paid as if you're an associate as a 2L, that honestly is obscene (though great for us!). Who knows when this will happen or if it really will. I think some firms are trying to get changes started by putting off their hiring until winter/spring which isn't a bad idea. It will be trial and error for a while and the entire system won't change for a while (assuming it ever does).

IMO, the important thing for people starting law school next year to think about is what exactly they are expecting. Don't go into law school in 2010 thinking that you're going to get your job handed to you the summer before 2L and then be set for the rest of law school. Go in thinking that you'll have nothing after 2L summer. In this sense, the people at non "T14" schools have a leg up because they already go through this thought process. Going into law school I was thinking "as long as I'm not bottom quarter I'll be promised a 6 fig job." That's not how it has worked this year and it was a rude awakening. We get this feeling of entitlement (not saying its a good thing, just acknowledging that its present) and when we have to work hard for a job after working so hard for everything else, we feel like our money could have been better spent.

I can't say specifically what will happen for the entering class of 2010, no one can. I can't even predict whether I'll get a permanent offer this time next year. All you can do is go in thinking about all of these things and really consider how much debt you're willing to take on for the job prospects provided by the school. I don't regret my choice in the slightest, but if I didn't have a job right now my response would probably be very different.

Hope this rant was at least slightly helpful... If not, I'm sorry

Edit: Thanks to the people who posted while I was typing to make it ABSOLUTELY clear that I really have NO idea what's going to happen

[Georgiana]

Which is why I asked what her "feeling" was, and not what would happen for sure. She had some pretty relevant and intelligent insights to the whole 2010 OCI thing and I respect her opinion on the matter. The fact that she is in school and is going through the process means she almost surely knows more than me about it. I'm terribly sorry that I'm attempting using this forum to take in new insights to the legal profession and job placement.

The bolded made me

Glad to at least encourage people to think about the issues.

[ughOSU]

Yea I could easily see the SA thing changing completely, but you're most likely right that there will be more modest cutbacks. FWIW my uncle used to run Reed Smith's SA program for a number of years and he thought the whole thing was a massive waste of money.

[biggamejames]

My most engaging professor... interesting... I guess I have a few:
Prof. Yoo for IP - great with life advice and just an entertaining person all around. Plus I like the subject
Prof. Johnston for Natural Resources - his stories are great, he rants constantly, and has very interesting views on issues... I love it. I plan on taking his class next semester also.

Leo Katz.

[Georgiana]

My most engaging professor... interesting... I guess I have a few:
Prof. Yoo for IP - great with life advice and just an entertaining person all around. Plus I like the subject
Prof. Johnston for Natural Resources - his stories are great, he rants constantly, and has very interesting views on issues... I love it. I plan on taking his class next semester also.

Leo Katz.

For K's?

I had him for crim and didn't really get the obsession the K's people had with him...

[biggamejames]

My most engaging professor... interesting... I guess I have a few:
Prof. Yoo for IP - great with life advice and just an entertaining person all around. Plus I like the subject
Prof. Johnston for Natural Resources - his stories are great, he rants constantly, and has very interesting views on issues... I love it. I plan on taking his class next semester also.

Leo Katz.

For K's?

I had him for crim and didn't really get the obsession the K's people had with him...

I had him for Contracts, and he was really, really good at thinking of the strangest and hardest hypos on the fly. I love that shit. Plus I think he's charismatic.

[Georgiana]

My most engaging professor... interesting... I guess I have a few:
Prof. Yoo for IP - great with life advice and just an entertaining person all around. Plus I like the subject
Prof. Johnston for Natural Resources - his stories are great, he rants constantly, and has very interesting views on issues... I love it. I plan on taking his class next semester also.

Leo Katz.

For K's?

I had him for crim and didn't really get the obsession the K's people had with him...

I had him for Contracts, and he was really, really good at thinking of the strangest and hardest hypos on the fly. I love that shit. Plus I think he's charismatic.

He's charismatic and his hypos are pretty crazy... but I never really got much substance from class. Just hypo and hypo after hypo and no closing "this is what you should take away." That bothered me; I had to teach myself the law and the only purpose of class was for entertainment.

[biggamejames]

I never really got much substance from class. Just hypo and hypo after hypo and no closing "this is what you should take away." That bothered me; I had to teach myself the law and the only purpose of class was for entertainment.

I thought every class was like that, only most of them are really fucking boring

[Georgiana]

I never really got much substance from class. Just hypo and hypo after hypo and no closing "this is what you should take away." That bothered me; I had to teach myself the law and the only purpose of class was for entertainment.

I thought every class was like that, only most of them are really fucking boring

Not my classes... Kermit was great with take home lessons, Austin at least had her slides, Burbank def made sure you knew the law, Property you couldn't help but learn the rules in class... etc and so forth. My only real issue was crim (and maybe K's)

[biggamejames]

I never really got much substance from class. Just hypo and hypo after hypo and no closing "this is what you should take away." That bothered me; I had to teach myself the law and the only purpose of class was for entertainment.

I thought every class was like that, only most of them are really fucking boring

Not my classes... Kermit was great with take home lessons, Austin at least had her slides, Burbank def made sure you knew the law, Property you couldn't help but learn the rules in class... etc and so forth. My only real issue was crim (and maybe K's)

Section 1 = Gunner section.

[MC Southstar]

How connected/disconnected do you feel from the rest of the schools on campus? Both physically and emotionally and however else might apply. -_-

[The Brainalist]

I love the way you guys talk about your classes and professors.

[biggamejames]

How connected/disconnected do you feel from the rest of the schools on campus? Both physically and emotionally and however else might apply. -_-

Not disconnected enough. Fucking undergrads are everywhere. They're like roaches.

[Georgiana]

I never really got much substance from class. Just hypo and hypo after hypo and no closing "this is what you should take away." That bothered me; I had to teach myself the law and the only purpose of class was for entertainment.

I thought every class was like that, only most of them are really fucking boring

Not my classes... Kermit was great with take home lessons, Austin at least had her slides, Burbank def made sure you knew the law, Property you couldn't help but learn the rules in class... etc and so forth. My only real issue was crim (and maybe K's)

Section 1 = Gunner section.

But neither of us were in section 1... not sure where that came from lol

[Georgiana]

How connected/disconnected do you feel from the rest of the schools on campus? Both physically and emotionally and however else might apply. -_-

Not disconnected enough. Fucking undergrads are everywhere. They're like roaches.

hahaha thats true re: being in University City. I don't really deal with them elsewhere. I definitely don't feel like I'm on an undergrad campus.

[biggamejames]

I thought every class was like that, only most of them are really fucking boring

Not my classes... Kermit was great with take home lessons, Austin at least had her slides, Burbank def made sure you knew the law, Property you couldn't help but learn the rules in class... etc and so forth. My only real issue was crim (and maybe K's)

Section 1 = Gunner section.

But neither of us were in section 1... not sure where that came from lol

Oh, I thought Roosevelt/Burbank was Section 1. Oh well - Section 3 was the anonymous section

[Georgiana]

Not my classes... Kermit was great with take home lessons, Austin at least had her slides, Burbank def made sure you knew the law, Property you couldn't help but learn the rules in class... etc and so forth. My only real issue was crim (and maybe K's)

Section 1 = Gunner section.

But neither of us were in section 1... not sure where that came from lol

Oh, I thought Roosevelt/Burbank was Section 1. Oh well - Section 3 was the anonymous section

Way to be knowledgeable about your law school

Kidding. Sec. 1 was struve/morse etc.

Sec. 3 was the chill section, Sec. 2 was the party/outspoken section, and Sec. 1 was def. the gunners

[biggamejames]

Way to be knowledgeable about your law school

Kidding. Sec. 1 was struve/morse etc.

Sec. 3 was the chill section, Sec. 2 was the party/outspoken section, and Sec. 1 was def. the gunners

Hahah. Do the 1L sections have distinct characters?

[Georgiana]

Way to be knowledgeable about your law school

Kidding. Sec. 1 was struve/morse etc.

Sec. 3 was the chill section, Sec. 2 was the party/outspoken section, and Sec. 1 was def. the gunners

Hahah. Do the 1L sections have distinct characters?

I avoid them