Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
oldtimer
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby oldtimer » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:19 am

Wow...

Ok.

You're right. So take it to the DEAN... because you're wasting your time ranting about it on this forum.

One of you said you "planned" to do that... so I challenge you to DO IT and then post the response here. I think plenty of people would like to see it, honestly.

(not that either of you care about a challenge from a future 1L, but again I am not disagreeing that they should be doing SOMETHING, but I haven't seen EVIDENCE that grads are suffering as a direct result of OCS's "inaction"... YET, maybe next year this time I will have first hand EVIDENCE of that.. and then again, maybe not).

I'd still be interested to hear the reaction you get from the Dean when you bring this topic to his attention (as if you think he doesn't realize that his employees are apparently doing an abhorrent job earning their supposed 6 figure salaries).

Also, I'm surprised there are only 4 people in that department. I know much "lower ranked' schools with more people in that department, but maybe UIUC feels like they don't NEED that many people due to their "rank." One of you mentioned that the Rank is what is getting people hired despite the poor OCS. I can't believe that is the only factor getting people hired... ESPECIALLY in Chicago where the competition is incredibly stiff (or presumably so). But obviously, it has some impact.

and Chupavida:
Their job is to ASSIST in YOUR job search.. (and maybe they do a piss-poor job of that according to you), but it is absolutely NOT to GET YOU A JOB!
In case you didn't notice... but at the end of Undergrad.. at graduation, they handed out DIPLOMA's, not JOBS.
Same with Professional school.. YOU are purchasing an EDUCATION... not a JOB. What you do with that high priced education/diploma is, to a large degree, on YOU, not the OCS, the DEAN or your buddy at BIGLAW firm X in City Y.

I'm just trying to explain that while I AGREE that the OCS has a job to do and that in your opinion, they do not do it well at UIUC... that JOB is not exactly what I think YOU think it is.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby Kilpatrick » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:33 am

I know your heart is in the right place but you're a 0l arguing with current students about our own career services office. You're just going to have to trust us on this. There are flaws that need to be addressed.

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Chupavida
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby Chupavida » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:41 am

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Last edited by Chupavida on Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

oldtimer
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby oldtimer » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:14 am

Kilpatrick wrote:I know your heart is in the right place but you're a 0l arguing with current students about our own career services office. You're just going to have to trust us on this. There are flaws that need to be addressed.



Actually, I'm not so much "arguing" as seeking FACTUAL info that truly differentiates UIUC's career services from other schools that I could still attend. (I'm fortunate or unfortunate to have had some wait list movement last minute and still have a final choice to make) The sheer disdain and what at least appears to be convoluted rhetoric about one's own school is concerning to me as a still "prospective" 1L. Fair enough?

But I have no doubt whatsoever that there are flaws to be addressed. I think my issue is more with the attitude presented that somehow UIUC is the ONLY school with similar issues.

BECAUSE...
Those making the statements truly only have one point of view, but seem to insist otherwise.

Then again, aren't Lawyers supposed to "argue?" Isn't that kind of what they/we do? :lol:

And let's be fair...if someone is still "only" a 1L, then I would think that maybe they still have some learning to do when it comes to how OCS really performs over the long run as well. But I completely agree, that you obviously have much MUCH more experience at UIUC than I do and don't mean to imply otherwise.

And no, Chupavida what I'll do is my best... just as you have... (not interested in SCOTUS by any stretch, though) and HOPE for at least some assistance from OCS, but try to suck it up when I don't get it and not bash my own school on the forums. When I have an issue, hopefully I'll take it to the Dean because he at least SHOULD care.

But that's just me. (I also have no interest in getting "personal" on a web forum with someone whom I've never met and may potentially be a classmate who just might have something important to share with me at some point, but again, that's just me).

The skepticism comes from my finding slightly differing figures than purported here... Like the the most recent reported Asst. DEAN of Career Services actually making slightly less than 100k (splitting hairs)... BUT the Director making in the 80's and the assistant director only making in the 50's! Of course I would assume (maybe not safely) the salaries in the department go down from there... but that made me wonder what other facts were possibly being distorted by the emotion around the issue. It wasn't PERSONAL... just genuinely unsure of the quality of the facts.

but yes, I do like CAPS and "quotes"... but if you prefer italics or bold I can go that way too... :wink:

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SaintClarence27
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:26 am

Kilpatrick wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:I wish I knew who Kilpatrick is.


:|

Sounded threatening.


Haha, I'm sure he's just curious. At least I hope it's not because he wants to beat me up IRL for besmirching the good name of career services.


I'm in D, and I talk a lot.

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yhezel
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby yhezel » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:51 am

specialblend35 wrote:Incoming 2L transfer here. I'm in the process of putting together my schedule, and was wondering if anyone had input on who the must-take, rock star professors are at UIUC, and on the other hand which ones to avoid. Thanks in advance!


I would put Ralph Brubaker and Eric Hamilton at the top of my list. People either hated or loved the Bru's style (Kinda paper chase), but everyone agreed he's great at teaching. He made Contracts really fun. Hamilton is not only a great teacher, but also a nice guy and very passionate about anything con-law related. I didn't have Colombo, but I heard people worship the guy. I also heard great things about Tabb, I'm taking his Bankruptcy class next semester.

There are some professors that I would think twice about taking again, but I'd rather share that in a PM.

And welcome!!!

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby Kilpatrick » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:11 am

oldtimer wrote:

Actually, I'm not so much "arguing" as seeking FACTUAL info that truly differentiates UIUC's career services from other schools that I could still attend. (I'm fortunate or unfortunate to have had some wait list movement last minute and still have a final choice to make) The sheer disdain and what at least appears to be convoluted rhetoric about one's own school is concerning to me as a still "prospective" 1L. Fair enough?


I don't know what more FACTUAL info you are seeking. We have given you concrete examples of the problems with career services. The school has not released data about OCI that would have been extremely valuable in my job search. This is a fact. I'm not sure why you would question that. There is no "disdain" for Illinois in general, only with career services. Both Chupavida and I specifically said that we like almost everything else about the school. That's pretty high praise. No school is perfect. I'm not sure why you think we should pretend it is just because it's "our school". Show me what part of this "rhetoric" you think has been convoluted and I will attempt to clarify.


oldtimer wrote:But I have no doubt whatsoever that there are flaws to be addressed. I think my issue is more with the attitude presented that somehow UIUC is the ONLY school with similar issues.


I don't think anybody ever said or implied this. We said there are schools with better career services, not that Illinois was the only school with a bad career services. If I had to make the choice again I would still choose Illinois. The strength of a schools career services isn't really a good way to decide what school to go to. I certainly wouldn't go to a school like SLU just because they had a better OCS. You still have a much better chance of getting a job from Illinois.

oldtimer wrote:BECAUSE...
Those making the statements truly only have one point of view, but seem to insist otherwise.

Then again, aren't Lawyers supposed to "argue?" Isn't that kind of what they/we do? :lol:


And let's be fair...if someone is still "only" a 1L, then I would think that maybe they still have some learning to do when it comes to how OCS really performs over the long run as well. But I completely agree, that you obviously have much MUCH more experience at UIUC than I do and don't mean to imply otherwise.


Only 1ls? This comment shows that you don't really know anything about legal hiring. This is the exact point in law school in which career services is supposed to be helping us. The job I am trying to get now will (hopefully) be the job I have after graduation. If we can't complain about them now, when can we? There is no need to evaluate them in the long run. They're fucking up right now.
oldtimer wrote:And no, Chupavida what I'll do is my best... just as you have... (not interested in SCOTUS by any stretch, though) and HOPE for at least some assistance from OCS, but try to suck it up when I don't get it and not bash my own school on the forums. When I have an issue, hopefully I'll take it to the Dean because he at least SHOULD care.


This is not "bashing" the school. I try to give honest unsugarcoated answers here. Somebody asked me if there was a 'secret' list of who got hired and for what firms. The answer is no there is no such list and that's a huge problem. There should be and it shouldn't be secret. I did try to at least qualify my answer by saying that the dean is working to address the problem. But I'm not going to lie and say that the OCS is doing a good job.

oldtimer wrote:The skepticism comes from my finding slightly differing figures than purported here... Like the the most recent reported Asst. DEAN of Career Services actually making slightly less than 100k (splitting hairs)... BUT the Director making in the 80's and the assistant director only making in the 50's! Of course I would assume (maybe not safely) the salaries in the department go down from there... but that made me wonder what other facts were possibly being distorted by the emotion around the issue. It wasn't PERSONAL... just genuinely unsure of the quality of the facts.


You are right. I went and double checked and Waller made just under 100K. The person who is a holdover from the old staff made about 70K. But I think the spirit of the argument remains intact. We pay exorbitant sums to go here and these people are well compensated. (especially if you consider COL). It's really not too much to expect them to do simple things like keep data and give people information.

oldtimer wrote:but yes, I do like CAPS and "quotes"... but if you prefer italics or bold I can go that way too... :wink:


btw Chupavida's right, knock that stuff off.

I understand nobody wants to hear anything bad about the school they're about to drop six figures on going to. But really you should be grateful that there are current students here willing to be honest about the school, good and bad. If somebody asked me how the food was at Derald's, I'm not going to lie and say it's delicious out of some kind of misguided loyalty to my school. I'm going to tell you its shit so you can be prepared to pack a lunch.

oldtimer
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby oldtimer » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:02 am

Kilpatrick wrote:
oldtimer wrote:

Actually, I'm not so much "arguing" as seeking FACTUAL info that truly differentiates UIUC's career services from other schools that I could still attend. (I'm fortunate or unfortunate to have had some wait list movement last minute and still have a final choice to make) The sheer disdain and what at least appears to be convoluted rhetoric about one's own school is concerning to me as a still "prospective" 1L. Fair enough?


I don't know what more FACTUAL info you are seeking. We have given you concrete examples of the problems with career services. The school has not released data about OCI that would have been extremely valuable in my job search. This is a fact. I'm not sure why you would question that. There is no "disdain" for Illinois in general, only with career services. Both Chupavida and I specifically said that we like almost everything else about the school. That's pretty high praise. No school is perfect. I'm not sure why you think we should pretend it is just because it's "our school". Show me what part of this "rhetoric" you think has been convoluted and I will attempt to clarify.


oldtimer wrote:But I have no doubt whatsoever that there are flaws to be addressed. I think my issue is more with the attitude presented that somehow UIUC is the ONLY school with similar issues.


I don't think anybody ever said or implied this. We said there are schools with better career services, not that Illinois was the only school with a bad career services. If I had to make the choice again I would still choose Illinois. The strength of a schools career services isn't really a good way to decide what school to go to. I certainly wouldn't go to a school like SLU just because they had a better OCS. You still have a much better chance of getting a job from Illinois.

oldtimer wrote:BECAUSE...
Those making the statements truly only have one point of view, but seem to insist otherwise.

Then again, aren't Lawyers supposed to "argue?" Isn't that kind of what they/we do? :lol:


And let's be fair...if someone is still "only" a 1L, then I would think that maybe they still have some learning to do when it comes to how OCS really performs over the long run as well. But I completely agree, that you obviously have much MUCH more experience at UIUC than I do and don't mean to imply otherwise.


Only 1ls? This comment shows that you don't really know anything about legal hiring. This is the exact point in law school in which career services is supposed to be helping us. The job I am trying to get now will (hopefully) be the job I have after graduation. If we can't complain about them now, when can we? There is no need to evaluate them in the long run. They're fucking up right now.
oldtimer wrote:And no, Chupavida what I'll do is my best... just as you have... (not interested in SCOTUS by any stretch, though) and HOPE for at least some assistance from OCS, but try to suck it up when I don't get it and not bash my own school on the forums. When I have an issue, hopefully I'll take it to the Dean because he at least SHOULD care.


This is not "bashing" the school. I try to give honest unsugarcoated answers here. Somebody asked me if there was a 'secret' list of who got hired and for what firms. The answer is no there is no such list and that's a huge problem. There should be and it shouldn't be secret. I did try to at least qualify my answer by saying that the dean is working to address the problem. But I'm not going to lie and say that the OCS is doing a good job.

oldtimer wrote:The skepticism comes from my finding slightly differing figures than purported here... Like the the most recent reported Asst. DEAN of Career Services actually making slightly less than 100k (splitting hairs)... BUT the Director making in the 80's and the assistant director only making in the 50's! Of course I would assume (maybe not safely) the salaries in the department go down from there... but that made me wonder what other facts were possibly being distorted by the emotion around the issue. It wasn't PERSONAL... just genuinely unsure of the quality of the facts.


You are right. I went and double checked and Waller made just under 100K. The person who is a holdover from the old staff made about 70K. But I think the spirit of the argument remains intact. We pay exorbitant sums to go here and these people are well compensated. (especially if you consider COL). It's really not too much to expect them to do simple things like keep data and give people information.

oldtimer wrote:but yes, I do like CAPS and "quotes"... but if you prefer italics or bold I can go that way too... :wink:


btw Chupavida's right, knock that stuff off.

I understand nobody wants to hear anything bad about the school they're about to drop six figures on going to. But really you should be grateful that there are current students here willing to be honest about the school, good and bad. If somebody asked me how the food was at Derald's, I'm not going to lie and say it's delicious out of some kind of misguided loyalty to my school. I'm going to tell you its shit so you can be prepared to pack a lunch.



You're right on all counts.... and well said. Thank you, Kilpatrick. And please understand that I took most of what you had been saying this whole time as the voice of reason in the conversation as you did not seem to be nearly as emotionally invested in the topic. (and that's not a dig on the other guys, just how I took it)

I apologize for my "ignorance." (I was having an especially rough day yesterday and some of the comments here struck me the wrong way and I apparently took it in a spirit in which is was not intended.) Think back to the time when you were in my position... there was just a little stress in making this big decision. Any educated assistance I can get with doing so is truly appreciated. Good to hear that you wouldn't choose a school like SLU over Illinois based on OCS... Curious if you would choose a school like SLU for ANY reason?

Thanks.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby Kilpatrick » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:24 am

I can relate to stressing out over making the decision, it's one of the most important you will face in your career. Now imagine that you had a service that you were paying for called "Law School Admissions Services" and you felt like they were actually getting in your way of making that decision instead of helping. That's where the frustration and passion in Chupavida's responses is coming from.

Don't let this negativity scare you away. Illinois is an amazing place. I loved my 1l year and would be happy to answer any questions you have that may reassure you you'd be making the right choice to come here.

As for SLU, I might choose it if I was getting a full ride with no stipulations and I knew for sure that I didn't want to work anywhere but St. Louis.

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Chupavida
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby Chupavida » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:39 am

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Last edited by Chupavida on Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:45 am

Superman, right?

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Chupavida
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby Chupavida » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:52 am

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Last edited by Chupavida on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:27 am

Chupavida wrote:Batman all the way.


I couldn't tell by your avatar.

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blurbz
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby blurbz » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:39 am

WARNING, WALL OF TEXT.

I’d like to challenge the implication that my (and Chupa’s) comments were somehow unreasonable.

First, you distorted what we were saying. Neither of us said that Illinois’ OCS is the worst or that we’re the only school that doesn’t provide useful data. In fact, both of us said that some schools DO provide the data we want and others do not. That doesn’t change the fact that the data is easily available and incredibly useful but not provided by Illinois OCS.

Neither of us said that we want them to hand us jobs when we graduate instead of diplomas. Neither of us said that we want them to act as personal concierges to our job-searches. What we want is for them to do their job and contextualize the legal market as it affects Illinois students so we can go about our job search more effectively and efficiently. The statistics we want would not be difficult to compile and distribute. Even if the former career services staff did not compile them, it would not be difficult to look at where students are working now (and where last year’s class worked), look at their GPA after 1L year, put it in a spreadsheet without names and email it to our class. No matter how much outside research Chupa, Kilpatrick or I do, we are not in a position to find these data: The OCS is uniquely situated to provide this data and they have failed to do so.

You asked why the data is important because it doesn’t affect our grades so, presumably, we will find out where we will get offers when we get offers. The bidding process at Illinois is 100% preselect and firms put guidelines about where in the class they want applicants to be. The problem is, those guidelines are notoriously misleading: One firm might say they want top 25% but in reality they only hire the top 3%. Another might say they want top 10% but in reality they’ve hired from the top third of the class. The firms do not change their requirements on a school-by-school basis so, to understand what they are really looking for at Illinois, we need evidence of where Illinois students have gone and with what GPA/journals/moot/extracurriculars/WE/etc they’ve had. Having this contextual information would streamline the processes and make it simpler for everyone: Students would know to bid on firms that they have the best chances at and firms would get fewer bids that would, ideally, be from the precise part of the class from which they want to hire.

You implied that we want the OCS to hold our hands and introduce us to employers like they’re an over-protective mother helping their child leave home for the first time. (Perhaps at a west-coast networking event….) We never said any such thing. I understand that, by its very nature, networking must be a personal endeavor. But, that being said, it would be helpful for the office to establish contacts with hiring attorneys locally and nationally to keep them abreast of what is going on at Illinois. Again, the OCS is uniquely situated to establish relationships with prospective employers and to build those relationships over a period of years. This is not something that a student can do even if we “have the energy” like you suggested: I don’t have the information or the time to cultivate relationships, over a period of years, between the University and prospective employers.

Such relationships would be beneficial because they would encourage open lines of communication between employers and students and because it would allow OCS to learn about employers over a period of time. If OCS had firsthand knowledge about employers and their relationship with Illinois, they could do more than hand me a copy of the latest Chambers Associate book and send me on my way when I come in asking for help. Indeed, with real contacts and information they could provide substantive advice about what it takes to get certain kinds of jobs from our school. A novel idea, I know, but one that I believe is entirely reasonable.

There are at least four full-time, well-compensated employees in that office. Chupa, Kilpatrick and I will be just fine because we have the energy (if not the time) to do a lot of research ourselves. But that doesn’t change the fact that the OCS is uniquely situated to get information and form useful relationships to benefit the students at Illinois, they’re being paid handsomely to do so, and they have not yet done it.

I don’t believe that any of this is unreasonable and convoluted rhetoric. It’s not vitriolic or malicious. It’s not unfair to the office or to the school. Like Kilpatrick and Chupa, I’ve had a great experience at Illinois and I’d make the choice to come here again. I’m offended by your implication that I’m doing my school and my fellow students a disservice by speaking out about the things that need fixing here. Nothing would ever change if no one was willing to point out flaws and suggest improvements. That’s all we want: to make OCS match the high-quality we’ve gotten from the rest of the school. Is that reasonable? I think so.




edit re SLU:

I'd only attend SLU if the following conditions were met:

1. I absolutely had to be in St. Louis;
2. I had a full tuition scholarship;
3. My scholarhiship had no stipulations;
4. I did not get into WUSTL;
5. I am comfortable spending a significant portion of my career in the St. Louis area; and
6. I do not have any other decent employment options.

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yhezel
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby yhezel » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:09 pm

yhezel wrote:
specialblend35 wrote:Incoming 2L transfer here. I'm in the process of putting together my schedule, and was wondering if anyone had input on who the must-take, rock star professors are at UIUC, and on the other hand which ones to avoid. Thanks in advance!


I would put Ralph Brubaker and Eric Hamilton at the top of my list. People either hated or loved the Bru's style (Kinda paper chase), but everyone agreed he's great at teaching. He made Contracts really fun. Hamilton is not only a great teacher, but also a nice guy and very passionate about anything con-law related. I didn't have Colombo, but I heard people worship the guy. I also heard great things about Tabb, I'm taking his Bankruptcy class next semester.

There are some professors that I would think twice about taking again, but I'd rather share that in a PM.

And welcome!!!


Correction: Eric Hamilton is not Eric Hamilton but DANIEL HAMILTON. I stand corrected. But still really cool guy. Thanks Mike.

specialblend35
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby specialblend35 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:18 pm

yhezel wrote:
Correction: Eric Hamilton is not Eric Hamilton but DANIEL HAMILTON. I stand corrected. But still really cool guy. Thanks Mike.


Thanks!

On another note, does anyone remember when loan money got disbursed last year? The most specific I've heard is "late august."

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby Kilpatrick » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:20 pm

It was either the first or second day of orientation. I remember being very relieved that I actually had money to go out the first weekend. It was a couple days before the advertised disbursement date.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby TCScrutinizer » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:28 pm

specialblend35 wrote:
yhezel wrote:
Correction: Eric Hamilton is not Eric Hamilton but DANIEL HAMILTON. I stand corrected. But still really cool guy. Thanks Mike.


Thanks!

On another note, does anyone remember when loan money got disbursed last year? The most specific I've heard is "late august."


Disbursement was on or about August 16th last year, IIRC.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby TCScrutinizer » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:43 pm

Not that my opinion is as weighty as blurbz or Kilpatrick, who will both be making much more money than me two years from now, but I agree with just about everything that has been said about the OCS at UIUC. The school has so far attempted to paint a picture of progress with the new hires, but until we see some tangible results it's really just a change of wallpaper. Of course the most significant element in your job search is you. Of course the people in the office are as helpful as can be. The fact still remains that we don't get the kind of open dissemination of information that would be most helpful to our job search. I've heard over and over again that the top 25-33% of Illinois students make BigLaw, but nowhere have I seen data to corroborate this claim. Nowhere have we seen the sort of information that blurbz was referring to -- a list of firms that interview at Illinois, how many people they hire for 2L summer, with what qualifications, how many of them get jobs after 3L year -- just to name a few. I like the new people in the office, and I have hopes for them; yet, I cannot help but wonder if they are going to revolutionize the office or simply polish the same old turd.

We know to wear black or navy blue suits to interviews. We know what happens at job interviews. If we don't have the common sense to know these things, there dozens of internet sites and four hundred upperclassmen willing to tell us. What we need from the OCS is information that we couldn't otherwise procure ourselves.

So really, a big "what he said" to blurbz.

oldtimer
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby oldtimer » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:59 am

blurbz wrote:I’m offended by your implication that I’m doing my school and my fellow students a disservice by speaking out about the things that need fixing here. Nothing would ever change if no one was willing to point out flaws and suggest improvements. That’s all we want: to make OCS match the high-quality we’ve gotten from the rest of the school. Is that reasonable? I think so.




I have a feeling you may want to get used to being "offended" if that is the type of thing that offends you... because I absolutely do think that.... You are DEFINITELY (there I go with the caps again... sorry, it's a habit I need to break).... You are definitely doing a disservice to at least some of the future 1L's at your beloved school because as if they weren't already stressed out enough, now they think they have one more thing to worry about.

I have no qualms about "speaking out" about issues/flaws that need to be addressed at your (soon to be OUR) school... in the right forum. But this forum is not the right forum. (which is why I was being sincere when I said I thought addressing it with the Dean and then reporting back here would actually be a useful way to vent the energy around the issue).

Disagree if you want, but no valuable change will come from rants on TLS. The people that matter most likely never read them and if they do, they probably discount them as coming from one or two disgruntled students rather than a sign of a rampant problem. What WILL come from it is the the potential discouragement of future 1L's of your beloved Alma Mater due to current students showing any kind of dissatisfaction with the school... especially when it seems to be extreme dissatisfaction to the point of disgust, even if justified. Sure, we need to know the facts, but since you said it would not change your decision to attend the school and this thread is essentially intended to answer questions for PROSPECTIVE students, it could have a negative result for those of us who might be swayed by the negativity.

That is what bothers me most about all of this, not the "facts" per se.... and I thought I made that clear in my last post... evidently not.

Look... I have no interest in getting off on the wrong foot with my fellow students... and fortunately, none of us know each other "IRL" as they say, so I suppose technically, that won't happen here. But I would assume that in law school, of all places, you guys would be used to people disagreeing with you. You sit in a room full of Type A personalities all day... seems to me "debating" would be par for the course. Not sure why it seems to have to get personal here. Wait, I do know why... precisely what I said above... it's because none of us REALLY know each other. It's easy to get "snippy" in the e-world due to the personal disconnect. I'd bet you a beer that if we were all sitting at the Blind Pig drinking a beer and "debating" this issue... it would be cool and friendly... even if a little "energetic."

I hope I'm right about that... and hopefully I'll get a chance to find out soon enough, because none of this has even remotely scared me away from U of I. Then again, I know where I want to be after graduation, so I at least have some idea who I need to "hound" for summer work, etc.

I fully agree that the information would be helpful. You've all convinced me :wink: No, really. Everything you guys have said makes sense. Now just think back a year to when you were as ignorant as I... how did your upperclassmen relate to you when you THOUGHT you knew something? Hopefully a little less defensively... but probably not. I suppose it's in our nature.

and TCScrutinizer
I hope you were kidding about your opinion not being "weighty" because you won't be making as much money in two years... Surely you were, but if not... man, is that how people really see Law from the inside? The more you make, the more you matter?

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby TCScrutinizer » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:06 am

oldtimer wrote:and TCScrutinizer
I hope you were kidding about your opinion not being "weighty" because you won't be making as much money in two years... Surely you were, but if not... man, is that how people really see Law from the inside? The more you make, the more you matter?


I thought of it as a polite way of saying that his grades are good enough for biglaw and mine aren't. His prospects are better than mine so he has more of a reason to gripe about others' failures than I do.

And the OCS problems evident at UIUC are endemic in law school career services, from what I understand. I think there's the perception, right or wrong, that it's simply not in the best interests of most law schools to expose themselves by releasing detailed employment information. They want to perpetuate the myth of the $100,000 a year lawyer and the realistic shot at big money. They don't want incoming students to realize that less than a quarter of them will make $160K and more than half will make under $60K starting. There are a lot of potential law students who wouldn't sign away $100K plus interest of their earnings away in order to make $55K a year.

At least, that's what I think that they don't want to publicize. But how will we ever know without more transparent reporting?

oldtimer
Posts: 68
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby oldtimer » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:26 am

TCScrutinizer wrote:
oldtimer wrote:and TCScrutinizer
I hope you were kidding about your opinion not being "weighty" because you won't be making as much money in two years... Surely you were, but if not... man, is that how people really see Law from the inside? The more you make, the more you matter?


There are a lot of potential law students who wouldn't sign away $100K plus interest of their earnings away in order to make $55K a year.

I think it's safe to say that none of them would... That is because 100% of first year law students think they'll be in the top 10% of their class... and 90% of them are wrong..

The trouble is, after the first year, it's too late to "cut and run" for most of them with upwards of $50k already invested for some! I can tell you that admissions absolutely works to promote the idea that the "big bucks" are more than a slight possibility, but that's because they're essentially in the business of dream sales. Of course, the reality is that some of the folks actually DO make the big bucks, so that's the carrot that is dangling in front of most people who decide to go to law school. It has to be a possibility in order for anyone to even consider the amount of debt involved in going to almost any law school these days... even with scholarships!

Though, I guess there is always public interest and LRAP.

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yhezel
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby yhezel » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:33 am

"I'd bet you a beer that if we were all sitting at the Blind Pig drinking a beer and "debating" this issue... it would be cool and friendly... even if a little "energetic." "

Nah, it would be just as brutal. Make sure you bet that beer on mug night.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby Kilpatrick » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:43 am

oldtimer wrote:
I have a feeling you may want to get used to being "offended" if that is the type of thing that offends you... because I absolutely do think that.... You are DEFINITELY (there I go with the caps again... sorry, it's a habit I need to break).... You are definitely doing a disservice to at least some of the future 1L's at your beloved school because as if they weren't already stressed out enough, now they think they have one more thing to worry about.

I have no qualms about "speaking out" about issues/flaws that need to be addressed at your (soon to be OUR) school... in the right forum. But this forum is not the right forum. (which is why I was being sincere when I said I thought addressing it with the Dean and then reporting back here would actually be a useful way to vent the energy around the issue).

Disagree if you want, but no valuable change will come from rants on TLS. The people that matter most likely never read them and if they do, they probably discount them as coming from one or two disgruntled students rather than a sign of a rampant problem. What WILL come from it is the the potential discouragement of future 1L's of your beloved Alma Mater due to current students showing any kind of dissatisfaction with the school... especially when it seems to be extreme dissatisfaction to the point of disgust, even if justified. Sure, we need to know the facts, but since you said it would not change your decision to attend the school and this thread is essentially intended to answer questions for PROSPECTIVE students, it could have a negative result for those of us who might be swayed by the negativity.


I'm sorry you feel that this is a disservice to you but the reason blurbz (and I) are offended by your implication is because we are trying to help incoming 1ls. We're not posting this stuff thinking Career Services is going to read it and that any changes will be made because of it. Their thumbs are too busy being up their asses to get on TLS. I think this is exactly the proper forum for posting this stuff because prospective students come here looking for information about the school. You may only come here looking for rainbows and butterflies and stuff that won't stress you out, but other people want to know the positives and negatives of the school they're thinking of attending. I know I would have appreciated stuff like this as a 0l. Here are the reasons I feel this stuff is worth posting

1. To sway people by the negativity.

You seem to be under the impression that it would be a bad thing to dissuade prospective students from attending law school. I completely disagree. As many people as possible should be dissuaded from attending law school. Not just Illinois- any law school. I think you should only go to law school if you really really want to be a lawyer, you actually know what a lawyer does, you are aware of all the negatives about law school and being a lawyer and you are still not dissuaded. I read every bad economy/lawyer surplus/don't go no jobs die alone article and message board thread I could and I still chose to roll the dice on law school. If a prospective student is talked out of going to law school because I said the career services sucks then that's a good thing. They shouldn't go to law school if they're that easily dissuaded.

2. So future students can be better prepared than I was.

thesealocust had a great quote about career services recently:

thesealocust wrote:Let this be a lesson: career services offices are always well intentioned but often horribly out of touch and wrong. I analogize a lot of their efforts being like a small child trying to help cook dinner. It's cute, and maybe they'll lend you a hand or save you a bit of effort, but they might also dump boiling pasta sauce all over the cat and then just giggle.


I don't know about you, but I'd rather know going in that my school's OCS is of the "dump boiling pasta sauce" variety. If I had known earlier that I would be completely and utterly on my own to get a job I would have a) done more research earlier b) reached out to more 2ls and 3ls since they can tell you more about job statistics from posts on Facebook than Career Services will share with you even though they have access to all of the data c) reached out to alumni earlier d) not wasted my time going to their office, sitting through stupid meetings, sending them my cover letter and resume to get terrible feedback on, etc.

Sorry if this stuff is stressing you (or anyone else) reading but it's valuable to know. If you want, you can go ahead and ignore it now and I'll see you next year when you're a rising 2l and you come back to tell us we were right.

oldtimer
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:48 am

Re: Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions

Postby oldtimer » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:06 am

Kilpatrick wrote:
oldtimer wrote:
I have a feeling you may want to get used to being "offended" if that is the type of thing that offends you... because I absolutely do think that.... You are DEFINITELY (there I go with the caps again... sorry, it's a habit I need to break).... You are definitely doing a disservice to at least some of the future 1L's at your beloved school because as if they weren't already stressed out enough, now they think they have one more thing to worry about.

I have no qualms about "speaking out" about issues/flaws that need to be addressed at your (soon to be OUR) school... in the right forum. But this forum is not the right forum. (which is why I was being sincere when I said I thought addressing it with the Dean and then reporting back here would actually be a useful way to vent the energy around the issue).

Disagree if you want, but no valuable change will come from rants on TLS. The people that matter most likely never read them and if they do, they probably discount them as coming from one or two disgruntled students rather than a sign of a rampant problem. What WILL come from it is the the potential discouragement of future 1L's of your beloved Alma Mater due to current students showing any kind of dissatisfaction with the school... especially when it seems to be extreme dissatisfaction to the point of disgust, even if justified. Sure, we need to know the facts, but since you said it would not change your decision to attend the school and this thread is essentially intended to answer questions for PROSPECTIVE students, it could have a negative result for those of us who might be swayed by the negativity.


I'm sorry you feel that this is a disservice to you but the reason blurbz (and I) are offended by your implication is because we are trying to help incoming 1ls. We're not posting this stuff thinking Career Services is going to read it and that any changes will be made because of it. Their thumbs are too busy being up their asses to get on TLS. I think this is exactly the proper forum for posting this stuff because prospective students come here looking for information about the school. You may only come here looking for rainbows and butterflies and stuff that won't stress you out, but other people want to know the positives and negatives of the school they're thinking of attending. I know I would have appreciated stuff like this as a 0l. Here are the reasons I feel this stuff is worth posting

1. To sway people by the negativity.

You seem to be under the impression that it would be a bad thing to dissuade prospective students from attending law school. I completely disagree. As many people as possible should be dissuaded from attending law school. Not just Illinois- any law school. I think you should only go to law school if you really really want to be a lawyer, you actually know what a lawyer does, you are aware of all the negatives about law school and being a lawyer and you are still not dissuaded. I read every bad economy/lawyer surplus/don't go no jobs die alone article and message board thread I could and I still chose to roll the dice on law school. If a prospective student is talked out of going to law school because I said the career services sucks then that's a good thing. They shouldn't go to law school if they're that easily dissuaded.

2. So future students can be better prepared than I was.

thesealocust had a great quote about career services recently:

thesealocust wrote:Let this be a lesson: career services offices are always well intentioned but often horribly out of touch and wrong. I analogize a lot of their efforts being like a small child trying to help cook dinner. It's cute, and maybe they'll lend you a hand or save you a bit of effort, but they might also dump boiling pasta sauce all over the cat and then just giggle.


I don't know about you, but I'd rather know going in that my school's OCS is of the "dump boiling pasta sauce" variety. If I had known earlier that I would be completely and utterly on my own to get a job I would have a) done more research earlier b) reached out to more 2ls and 3ls since they can tell you more about job statistics from posts on Facebook than Career Services will share with you even though they have access to all of the data c) reached out to alumni earlier d) not wasted my time going to their office, sitting through stupid meetings, sending them my cover letter and resume to get terrible feedback on, etc.

Sorry if this stuff is stressing you (or anyone else) reading but it's valuable to know. If you want, you can go ahead and ignore it now and I'll see you next year when you're a rising 2l and you come back to tell us we were right.


Thanks. Never thought of any of that. Seems like the presumption is that everyone who has not been through their 1L year is pretty much ignorant about life in general...

Thank God I don't fit that presumption...

See you in a few weeks. :D




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