Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

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Gail
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Gail » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:19 am

Thanks. If I were to attend Wake, I would want to practice in NC (ideally Charleston, SC, but that's not going to happen and North Carolina is just as good).

I just don't know how to actually create those ties to NC.

Really wish that firms would just believe people when they say that they really actually wouldn't leave if granted employment.

PirateCap'n
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:36 am

Gail wrote:Thanks. If I were to attend Wake, I would want to practice in NC (ideally Charleston, SC, but that's not going to happen and North Carolina is just as good).

I just don't know how to actually create those ties to NC.

Really wish that firms would just believe people when they say that they really actually wouldn't leave if granted employment.


It would be great if they could do that, but, in reality, it makes sense for them to be skeptical. People will say anything to get a job (and if you don't believe that, wait until OCI comes around). People say they will be thrilled to live in a particular city/state, and then they bolt back to their home state as soon as they've made enough money with the firm to justify leaving.

One thing in your favor is that there are actually several firms from Charleston that do OCI at Wake, so, if that's really where you would prefer to be, you might stand a chance with them. As for creating ties, there really isn't anything you can do other than: 1) buy a house, 2) marry someone from the state, or 3) come to school in NC and then work your butt off making as many connections as possible before you start OCI/mass-mailing (and of course, get a job in NC for your 1L position, which suggests you want to be in the state).

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Gail
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Gail » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:05 am

PirateCap'n wrote:
Gail wrote:Thanks. If I were to attend Wake, I would want to practice in NC (ideally Charleston, SC, but that's not going to happen and North Carolina is just as good).

I just don't know how to actually create those ties to NC.

Really wish that firms would just believe people when they say that they really actually wouldn't leave if granted employment.


It would be great if they could do that, but, in reality, it makes sense for them to be skeptical. People will say anything to get a job (and if you don't believe that, wait until OCI comes around). People say they will be thrilled to live in a particular city/state, and then they bolt back to their home state as soon as they've made enough money with the firm to justify leaving.

One thing in your favor is that there are actually several firms from Charleston that do OCI at Wake, so, if that's really where you would prefer to be, you might stand a chance with them. As for creating ties, there really isn't anything you can do other than: 1) buy a house, 2) marry someone from the state, or 3) come to school in NC and then work your butt off making as many connections as possible before you start OCI/mass-mailing (and of course, get a job in NC for your 1L position, which suggests you want to be in the state).


Have you ever been to Illinois during the winter? There's no reason to ever want to bolt back here. It really is hell frozen over during a winter storm.

My SO would be coming with me to live wherever I study. Also from IL. So I wont be marrying anyone from the state.

I suppose I could buy property, but I bet I'll probably just have to work really hard to network with people in the area. Are there any tips for doing that? The 1L gig is a given.

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moandersen
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby moandersen » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:52 am

Gail- PM me if you have questions. I'm from Chicago and was able to land a 2L summer biglaw SA in NC without top grades.

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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:08 pm

Gail wrote:
PirateCap'n wrote:
Gail wrote:Thanks. If I were to attend Wake, I would want to practice in NC (ideally Charleston, SC, but that's not going to happen and North Carolina is just as good).

I just don't know how to actually create those ties to NC.

Really wish that firms would just believe people when they say that they really actually wouldn't leave if granted employment.


It would be great if they could do that, but, in reality, it makes sense for them to be skeptical. People will say anything to get a job (and if you don't believe that, wait until OCI comes around). People say they will be thrilled to live in a particular city/state, and then they bolt back to their home state as soon as they've made enough money with the firm to justify leaving.

One thing in your favor is that there are actually several firms from Charleston that do OCI at Wake, so, if that's really where you would prefer to be, you might stand a chance with them. As for creating ties, there really isn't anything you can do other than: 1) buy a house, 2) marry someone from the state, or 3) come to school in NC and then work your butt off making as many connections as possible before you start OCI/mass-mailing (and of course, get a job in NC for your 1L position, which suggests you want to be in the state).


Have you ever been to Illinois during the winter? There's no reason to ever want to bolt back here. It really is hell frozen over during a winter storm.

My SO would be coming with me to live wherever I study. Also from IL. So I wont be marrying anyone from the state.

I suppose I could buy property, but I bet I'll probably just have to work really hard to network with people in the area. Are there any tips for doing that? The 1L gig is a given.


Ha. I've never been to IL in the winter, so I can't say much for that (although I do have a couple of friends from IL who returned after college FWIW). As for networking, the best bet is to just attend as many events as you can. The school offers a few networking events, some firms hold networking events where you get to meet everyone, and then there are things like the Inns of Court, which can be pretty helpful as well since you get to meet a lot of attorneys from the area. In any event, with Mo being an out of stater, I'm sure he's got some pretty good advice, so I would definitely listen to what he has to say.

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tstyler98
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby tstyler98 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:48 pm

Getting a job is more about who you know then about anything else. So, getting out and meeting people in NC is the best thing you can do. Go to events, volunteer, go on informational interviews, etc. Most people at Wake will be getting jobs through ways outside of OCI.

ash0117
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby ash0117 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:13 pm

So I've decided on wake for the fall. I do have a question though: Would it be feasible to be able to take care of a dog while in school? Are there any dog parks in the area? I want to bring my chihuahua but I am worried about not having breaks etc. he is pee pad trained and requires minimal exercise. Is it possible? Does anyone have a dog now? I will be living in crowne park, if that's relevant.

SteelyDan
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby SteelyDan » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:35 pm

ash0117 wrote:So I've decided on wake for the fall. I do have a question though: Would it be feasible to be able to take care of a dog while in school? Are there any dog parks in the area? I want to bring my chihuahua but I am worried about not having breaks etc. he is pee pad trained and requires minimal exercise. Is it possible? Does anyone have a dog now? I will be living in crowne park, if that's relevant.

Definitely possible, quite a few of us have dogs. I think more law students need them, mine kept me sane last semester.

PirateCap'n
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:45 pm

SteelyDan wrote:
ash0117 wrote:So I've decided on wake for the fall. I do have a question though: Would it be feasible to be able to take care of a dog while in school? Are there any dog parks in the area? I want to bring my chihuahua but I am worried about not having breaks etc. he is pee pad trained and requires minimal exercise. Is it possible? Does anyone have a dog now? I will be living in crowne park, if that's relevant.

Definitely possible, quite a few of us have dogs. I think more law students need them, mine kept me sane last semester.


I agree. They're great company, and I wouldn't go anywhere I couldn't have mine. I don't think you'll have any trouble -- especially since your dog is already trained.

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jerichosm
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby jerichosm » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:41 am

Can anyone comment on Wake vs. W&L?

I received generous scholarship offers from both and am most concerned about job prospects in VA and NC, cost of living, and quality of education.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

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moandersen
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby moandersen » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:59 am

PirateCap'n wrote:
SteelyDan wrote:
ash0117 wrote:So I've decided on wake for the fall. I do have a question though: Would it be feasible to be able to take care of a dog while in school? Are there any dog parks in the area? I want to bring my chihuahua but I am worried about not having breaks etc. he is pee pad trained and requires minimal exercise. Is it possible? Does anyone have a dog now? I will be living in crowne park, if that's relevant.

Definitely possible, quite a few of us have dogs. I think more law students need them, mine kept me sane last semester.


I agree. They're great company, and I wouldn't go anywhere I couldn't have mine. I don't think you'll have any trouble -- especially since your dog is already trained.


I got two dogs, and while it is a good amount of extra work (but thats just the nature of owning a dog), it's definitely worth it. My pups were bred for human interaction so I never leave them home alone longer than 4 hours. When my schedule sucked as a 1L I would go home during my lunch hour and play with them, and then head back to school for my 1pm class. It was never a problem and nice to get away from school for that hour.

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Gail
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Gail » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:58 pm

Kind of a strange question and it isn't super important to me, but what is the Catholic community like in Winston-Salem?

I'm Catholic and devout enough that I actually go to mass every week and enjoy having that Catholicness around me. I know the south is largely cut between Baptists and other evangelicals, but how many other people would you estimate come from a similar background?

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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:11 pm

Gail wrote:Kind of a strange question and it isn't super important to me, but what is the Catholic community like in Winston-Salem?

I'm Catholic and devout enough that I actually go to mass every week and enjoy having that Catholicness around me. I know the south is largely cut between Baptists and other evangelicals, but how many other people would you estimate come from a similar background?


There are actually a fair number of Catholics around. I'm not Catholic, so I can't comment on whether there are enough Catholics to suit your needs though. However, I know of several very devout professors who attend mass regularly, etc. (no idea where though) and who seem to get along fine. Between Winston Salem and Greensboro, I would say you shouldn't have much trouble finding something to your liking. You're not going to be surrounded by loads of other Catholics at WFU (especially given that it is a Baptist school), but I don't think you would feel out of place by any means. Others who happen to be Catholic can probably comment more on the level of comfort though.

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Gail
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Gail » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:08 pm

Alright cool. I don't need it to be Notre Dame level of Catholic, or even close. Just nice to know that I could see some people at mass every now and then.

Wouldn't be a deal breaker either way though.

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Gail
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Gail » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:43 pm

What supplements are credited for 1L? Do professors have any suggestions? Does the school have some lists that they suggest?


Additionally: How did you learn Black Letter Law?

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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:20 pm

Gail wrote:What supplements are credited for 1L? Do professors have any suggestions? Does the school have some lists that they suggest?


Additionally: How did you learn Black Letter Law?


Some professors will give you "recommended" books on the book list for a particular class. If they don't and you ask for a recommendation, many 1L professors usually revert to the E&E (or at least mine did). In general, I think the E&Es work pretty well. For Contracts and Civ. Pro. I found "Acing Civil Procedure" and "Acing Contracts" to be helpful, and the E&Es for both were pretty essential. I used both the Gilbert supplement and the E&E, and found Gilbert to be a bit more helpful (probably because it was closer to my professor's style). For Con. Law, everybody will almost undoubtedly recommend Chemerinsky. For Property, I used both the Emanuel and Gilbert supplements and didn't find either one particularly helpful. I've heard that the E&E isn't great either though.

I'm sure others found different supplements helpful, and I probably bought more than I really needed. Really, it's all just about how your professor teaches. Some supplements work better for certain professors than others.

As for black letter law, you'll get all you need of that in class. Professors aren't going to test you on something they didn't teach (or at least mention) in class. Supplements are meant for helping you make sense of the stuff they teach in class. If a professor assigns a case for reading, the professor will generally go over that case in class (using the Socratic method), and you'll get the BLL from that. If you don't understand how it works after going over it in class, you'll turn to the supplements to explain.

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Gail
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Gail » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:49 pm

PirateCap'n wrote:
Gail wrote:What supplements are credited for 1L? Do professors have any suggestions? Does the school have some lists that they suggest?


Additionally: How did you learn Black Letter Law?


Some professors will give you "recommended" books on the book list for a particular class. If they don't and you ask for a recommendation, many 1L professors usually revert to the E&E (or at least mine did). In general, I think the E&Es work pretty well. For Contracts and Civ. Pro. I found "Acing Civil Procedure" and "Acing Contracts" to be helpful, and the E&Es for both were pretty essential. I used both the Gilbert supplement and the E&E, and found Gilbert to be a bit more helpful (probably because it was closer to my professor's style). For Con. Law, everybody will almost undoubtedly recommend Chemerinsky. For Property, I used both the Emanuel and Gilbert supplements and didn't find either one particularly helpful. I've heard that the E&E isn't great either though.

I'm sure others found different supplements helpful, and I probably bought more than I really needed. Really, it's all just about how your professor teaches. Some supplements work better for certain professors than others.

As for black letter law, you'll get all you need of that in class. Professors aren't going to test you on something they didn't teach (or at least mention) in class. Supplements are meant for helping you make sense of the stuff they teach in class. If a professor assigns a case for reading, the professor will generally go over that case in class (using the Socratic method), and you'll get the BLL from that. If you don't understand how it works after going over it in class, you'll turn to the supplements to explain.


Library and suplement stuff:
Think I should wait to buy my E&Es for when professors suggest then? I'm also looking at going through LEEWS before 1L starts. Has anyone here done that? Was it helpful?


How is Wake's library? Do they have LEEWS audio thing there (saving me the price and time of going to the day lecture)? In general how would you rate the quality?


Career stuff:

OK. Now. How is OCI? How would students at roughly median fare? I'm not going to LS for biglaw, but I'd like a job that I can feel confident about feeding myself for a while. The scholarship money keeps my options open. But how confident should a student feel about a job making around 55k-65k a year if straight from undergrad, non-IP, out of state, and top 25%?

top 33%?

top 50%?

bottom 50%?

PirateCap'n
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:12 pm

Gail wrote:
Library and suplement stuff:
Think I should wait to buy my E&Es for when professors suggest then? I'm also looking at going through LEEWS before 1L starts. Has anyone here done that? Was it helpful?


I would definitely wait until you at least get to school to get the E&Es. They're not really going to help you until you've begun learning what the professor is teaching. I haven't one LEEWS, so I can't comment on that

Gail wrote:How is Wake's library? Do they have LEEWS audio thing there (saving me the price and time of going to the day lecture)? In general how would you rate the quality?


I think we have a great library. It's four stories, and it generally keeps E&Es and other supplements on reserve (although I would still definitely buy them). I doubt you'll ever have a need for many things that you won't be able to find in there. On a scale of 1-10, I would probably give it an 8. It's not the nicest library in the world (furniture could be updated), but we have access to practically everything online (HeinOnline, etc.) that you will need. You also have access to the Z. Smith Reynolds undergraduate library, which is huge and very nice. If there happens to be anything you can't find in the PCL (law school library), you can probably find it in ZSR.

Gail wrote:Career stuff:

OK. Now. How is OCI? How would students at roughly median fare? I'm not going to LS for biglaw, but I'd like a job that I can feel confident about feeding myself for a while. The scholarship money keeps my options open. But how confident should a student feel about a job making around 55k-65k a year if straight from undergrad, non-IP, out of state, and top 25%?

top 33%?

top 50%?

bottom 50%?


OCI depends in large part on your grades (obviously). If you're at median, you likely won't get many (if any) interviews at OCI. Most of your interviews will be a result of mass-mailing. If you're top 25%, you'll get a few OCI interviews, and, once you get the interviews, getting the job depends on how well you can convince them that you want to be in their location and how well you mesh with their culture. For the most part, practically all of the OCI interviews this year were split among the top 20% or so. If you're in that percentile, I doubt you will have much trouble getting interviews, but turning them into jobs just depends on the economy, your personality, and all of that good stuff. However, I would say that if you're in the top 20-25% you should feel pretty confident about getting at least a reasonable job after you graduate. You might not get biglaw, but a small or median firm definitely won't be out of the question.

Mo (above) seems to be very knowledgeable about the OCI stuff, so maybe he will chime in. If you look back a few pages though, I think we've discussed it a bit (which might help you).

SteelyDan
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby SteelyDan » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:21 pm

Gail wrote:Library and suplement stuff:
Think I should wait to buy my E&Es for when professors suggest then? I'm also looking at going through LEEWS before 1L starts. Has anyone here done that? Was it helpful?


Used copies of the E&Es are cheap online (old versions), I bought them for all of my 1L courses last summer (I know, pew pew) and skimmed though them / did a few of the problems before the semester started (per PLS). Probably cost me less than $100. Can't hurt, will only make you more comfortable with the material when you get to it in class. The only one I'd buy a new copy of is Civ Pro, that stuff changes quickly.

I listened to the LEEWS audio partway through the semester (you can find it online if you look hard enough, though I don't condone that) and honestly I couldn't force myself to sit through the whole thing. I went to the live session in Durham and had a vastly better experience... Wentworth Miller is hilarious and the method absolutely helped on exams. This is just my experience - I have friends who feel like they wasted their money, but I enjoyed the program and would recommend it.

Gail wrote:Career stuff:

OK. Now. How is OCI? How would students at roughly median fare? I'm not going to LS for biglaw, but I'd like a job that I can feel confident about feeding myself for a while. The scholarship money keeps my options open. But how confident should a student feel about a job making around 55k-65k a year if straight from undergrad, non-IP, out of state, and top 25%?

top 33%?

top 50%?

bottom 50%?

Don't count on OCI for anything unless you're top 10-15%. The 2Ls can probably speak with more authority on this than me (Tstyler98?), but I'll say that it's been useless for most of us 1Ls so far. The majority of the employers on OCI specifically say "Top 10% only", "Top 20% only", whatever, and even then they'll have less than 10 slots available.

That doesn't mean you won't get a summer job... most of us are getting interviews by networking, cold-calling, carpet-bombing with letters (you know who you are!), etc. You need to realize that with any law school finding a job will be almost entirely up to you - Career Services is only helpful to a limited extent.

PirateCap'n
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:30 pm

SteelyDan wrote:Don't count on OCI for anything unless you're top 10-15%. The 2Ls can probably speak with more authority on this than me (Tstyler98?), but I'll say that it's been useless for most of us 1Ls so far. The majority of the employers on OCI specifically say "Top 10% only", "Top 20% only", whatever, and even then they'll have less than 10 slots available.

That doesn't mean you won't get a summer job... most of us are getting interviews by networking, cold-calling, carpet-bombing with letters (you know who you are!), etc. You need to realize that with any law school finding a job will be almost entirely up to you - Career Services is only helpful to a limited extent.


As a 2L, I would say that it gets better during 2L OCI. Just so you know, those employers that say "Top 10% only" will still consider you if you submit a bid. That definitely doesn't mean you'll get an interview, but I know a few people last year who got interviews when the required grades were higher than what they had. Don't avoid applying just based on that. For 2L OCI, there will be considerably more firms interviewing (I think it was around 50 this year -- others correct me if I'm wrong), so you'll have a few more chances. You still need top 20-25% grades, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it needs to be top 10-15%. In any event, you're correct that, regardless of grades, your best chances are still mass-mailing, networking, etc.

risingdragon
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby risingdragon » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:28 pm

What you guys suggest to do in the months right before 1L started? Anything you regret doing or not doing?

PirateCap'n
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:41 pm

risingdragon wrote:What you guys suggest to do in the months right before 1L started? Anything you regret doing or not doing?


I kept a job that I already had up until the month before school started, so it was nice to stay busy and have a little money. Preparation-wise, I skimmed (briefly) a couple of books like Getting to Maybe, and I didn't do much else. I'm really glad that's all the preparation I did. I didn't do any of the other 0L prep stuff and don't regret it in the least. I really don't think that there's anything you can do that will truly prepare you for law school other than just reading a few books like GTM, which give you a decent overview. Other than that, just enjoy the downtime while you have it.

tarheel87
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby tarheel87 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:48 am

I don't get on here much , but I wanted to clear up a few things.

1.) I was right around median for 1L OCI and got several great interviews, so that is possible. For 2L OCI, I still wasn't in the top 40% and got at least 10 interviews through OCI (and many more outside of that), so this is clearly also possible. Granted, I did not end up getting my current job through OCI, but at least getting interviews is very possible from median. I was not alone in this respect.

2.) Way more than 50 firms at 2L OCI. I did a count early on, which I unfortunately no longer have, and I distinctly recall it being over 70, possibly more.

Things aren't as bad as you think and they are getting better. That being said, I would venture a guess that I am the exception rather than the rule.

PirateCap'n
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby PirateCap'n » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:02 am

tarheel87 wrote:I don't get on here much , but I wanted to clear up a few things.

1.) I was right around median for 1L OCI and got several great interviews, so that is possible. For 2L OCI, I still wasn't in the top 40% and got at least 10 interviews through OCI (and many more outside of that), so this is clearly also possible. Granted, I did not end up getting my current job through OCI, but at least getting interviews is very possible from median. I was not alone in this respect.

2.) Way more than 50 firms at 2L OCI. I did a count early on, which I unfortunately no longer have, and I distinctly recall it being over 70, possibly more.

Things aren't as bad as you think and they are getting better. That being said, I would venture a guess that I am the exception rather than the rule.


Congrats. Based on others I have spoken to, you're definitely the exception (are you from NC? That seems to make a big difference). I certainly wasn't saying that it wasn't possible to do well at OCI without being in the top 20-25%, but the vast majority of the interviewees that I was around were in that range (and Mo seemed to have the same experience). If you're able to do it from lower, that's great. I just wouldn't bank on it. As for the number of firms, I didn't count them towards the end since I finished up fairly early (and I didn't include resume collect firms since they don't actually do OCI by coming onto campus), so you're probably right. Either way, the number of firms is increasing a good bit from what it was several years ago, so the incoming 1Ls will have that to look forward to.

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moandersen
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby moandersen » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:24 am

PirateCap'n wrote:
tarheel87 wrote:I don't get on here much , but I wanted to clear up a few things.

1.) I was right around median for 1L OCI and got several great interviews, so that is possible. For 2L OCI, I still wasn't in the top 40% and got at least 10 interviews through OCI (and many more outside of that), so this is clearly also possible. Granted, I did not end up getting my current job through OCI, but at least getting interviews is very possible from median. I was not alone in this respect.

2.) Way more than 50 firms at 2L OCI. I did a count early on, which I unfortunately no longer have, and I distinctly recall it being over 70, possibly more.

Things aren't as bad as you think and they are getting better. That being said, I would venture a guess that I am the exception rather than the rule.


(are you from NC? That seems to make a big difference).


This. It would be pretty helpful if you answered this question to confirm/dispel the thought that NC ties = more interviews. Also, can you clarify the types of firms that you had interviews with? Both Pirate and I were generally referring to big law firms and the top boutiques (BP, RB, SA). If you were also getting those interviews, thats awesome and can be encouraging to prospective students.

70 unique firms seems high, but I didnt count them. 45-50 would have been my guess.

To you 1Ls discouraged that you didnt get interviews for spring OCI, dont be. Just keep hustling. Firms will expand their range for fall OCI, so hopefully you are in that band of required grades by then. However, if you had your heart set on WCSR, you are out of luck because i dont think they do 2L hiring anymore.




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