Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:15 am

Wakelaw15 wrote:questions for 2L/3L:

how bad is the in-state legal market?

also, i looked at class profile page and they've updated class enrollment for class of 2015 but left GPA/LSAT for class of 2014, which leads me to think the numbers are probably down even though the class is 2/3 the size. any thoughts?


the numbers are almost certainly down- they are offering 15k scholarships to people who are coming off the waitlist. However, I don't think this is anything unique to wake forest.


Also, can you be more specific about the "in-state market" question? Asking "how bad the in-state market is" is kind of like asking: "how bad is the U.S. economy?" Unless you get more specific, I can't really give you a substantive answer. Is there a particular niche you're looking for?

Wakelaw15
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Wakelaw15 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:58 pm

I have it on good authority that i was wrong: the medians are 3.66/163 (Wake actually improved).

I'm not sure what I want to practice, maybe litigation? I'd love to get a sports agent type of job, but I'm guessing that would be hard to do.

aca0260
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby aca0260 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:18 pm

You don't need to be a lawyer to be a sports agent. Also, I have friends that are actual agents at CSS - they're miserable and don't get paid much.

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IrwinM.Fletcher
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:02 am

Legal market in NC is, ummmm, pretty rough.

Most people do not appreciate how hard the collapse of the financial industry hit this market. From about 1989-2007, Bank of America and Wachovia kicked an unbelievable amount of butt as beneficiaries of bank deregulation and the real estate bubble. This created a HUGE amount of work as law firms helped BofA and Wachovia gobble up hundreds (literally) of smaller state banks across the country in the 1990s. The 2000s saw these same firms (and market newcomers like Dechert and Cadwalader) make a Mount Everest of benjamins manufacturing crap CDOs and helping invent Satan's personal financial WMD, the credit default swap.

This all came to a grinding halt in 2008 when the banks dropped a nuke on the economy. Carpetbagging firms from NYC shrunk their offices from 150+ to 20-30 attorneys, and the NC firms mini-sized their SA classes from 20-25 down to 4-8. Leveraged finance, structured products, and other bank work was a disproportionately large part of NC big firm business and about 85% of that stuff has dried up and may never come back (no institutional buyer will touch CDOs and related products for years to come).

What does this mean to 1Ls and 0Ls? Know that there are roughly 1/3 as many SA spots here as there were from 1999-2008. This means that a lot of those qualified students (think top 25%, maybe LR) who would have snatched these coveted positions are now battling tooth and nail for the $40-60k jobs in Winston-Salem, Greensboro and Raleigh that median students would have had a great chance at in past years. People below the top third or so will either land a job through: (1) networking/connections; (2) persistence; (3) luck; or (4) not at all.

This is not to say that the school does not do a decent job at trying to adapt to the changed legal market (in fact I feel like we have overperformed during the downturn). It's just that the NC market is incredibly, incredibly bad and the economic Kharybdis is dragging UNC and Wake down hard no matter what the schools try to do about it.

Anecdotally, I also found the NC market as the hardest to crack during OCI as an out of state student. Firms here are incredibly suspicious if you didn't grow up in NC/SC/VA and aren't married or have kids.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:59 am

IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:Legal market in NC is, ummmm, pretty rough.

Most people do not appreciate how hard the collapse of the financial industry hit this market. From about 1989-2007, Bank of America and Wachovia kicked an unbelievable amount of butt as beneficiaries of bank deregulation and the real estate bubble. This created a HUGE amount of work as law firms helped BofA and Wachovia gobble up hundreds (literally) of smaller state banks across the country in the 1990s. The 2000s saw these same firms (and market newcomers like Dechert and Cadwalader) make a Mount Everest of benjamins manufacturing crap CDOs and helping invent Satan's personal financial WMD, the credit default swap.

This all came to a grinding halt in 2008 when the banks dropped a nuke on the economy. Carpetbagging firms from NYC shrunk their offices from 150+ to 20-30 attorneys, and the NC firms mini-sized their SA classes from 20-25 down to 4-8. Leveraged finance, structured products, and other bank work was a disproportionately large part of NC big firm business and about 85% of that stuff has dried up and may never come back (no institutional buyer will touch CDOs and related products for years to come).

What does this mean to 1Ls and 0Ls? Know that there are roughly 1/3 as many SA spots here as there were from 1999-2008. This means that a lot of those qualified students (think top 25%, maybe LR) who would have snatched these coveted positions are now battling tooth and nail for the $40-60k jobs in Winston-Salem, Greensboro and Raleigh that median students would have had a great chance at in past years. People below the top third or so will either land a job through: (1) networking/connections; (2) persistence; (3) luck; or (4) not at all.

This is not to say that the school does not do a decent job at trying to adapt to the changed legal market (in fact I feel like we have overperformed during the downturn). It's just that the NC market is incredibly, incredibly bad and the economic Kharybdis is dragging UNC and Wake down hard no matter what the schools try to do about it.

Anecdotally, I also found the NC market as the hardest to crack during OCI as an out of state student. Firms here are incredibly suspicious if you didn't grow up in NC/SC/VA and aren't married or have kids.


I grew up in Va and am married:D. But, really, you don't think going to wake forest is enough? Do you think that not being from around NC/SC/VA is a big disadvantage? I feel like by going to a NC school you are showing your commitment. I am from around the area, so I guess I don't really know, though...

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IrwinM.Fletcher
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:54 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
I grew up in Va and am married:D. But, really, you don't think going to wake forest is enough? Do you think that not being from around NC/SC/VA is a big disadvantage? I feel like by going to a NC school you are showing your commitment. I am from around the area, so I guess I don't really know, though...


It's probably no different from most insular markets like Atlanta, only slightly smaller. Going to school here without putting down family roots, etc. didn't seem like enough to quell their suspicion.

Wound up having much better luck in regions that ironically had very few Wake grads.

Wakelaw15
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Wakelaw15 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:30 pm

IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:Legal market in NC is, ummmm, pretty rough.

Most people do not appreciate how hard the collapse of the financial industry hit this market. From about 1989-2007, Bank of America and Wachovia kicked an unbelievable amount of butt as beneficiaries of bank deregulation and the real estate bubble. This created a HUGE amount of work as law firms helped BofA and Wachovia gobble up hundreds (literally) of smaller state banks across the country in the 1990s. The 2000s saw these same firms (and market newcomers like Dechert and Cadwalader) make a Mount Everest of benjamins manufacturing crap CDOs and helping invent Satan's personal financial WMD, the credit default swap.

This all came to a grinding halt in 2008 when the banks dropped a nuke on the economy. Carpetbagging firms from NYC shrunk their offices from 150+ to 20-30 attorneys, and the NC firms mini-sized their SA classes from 20-25 down to 4-8. Leveraged finance, structured products, and other bank work was a disproportionately large part of NC big firm business and about 85% of that stuff has dried up and may never come back (no institutional buyer will touch CDOs and related products for years to come).

What does this mean to 1Ls and 0Ls? Know that there are roughly 1/3 as many SA spots here as there were from 1999-2008. This means that a lot of those qualified students (think top 25%, maybe LR) who would have snatched these coveted positions are now battling tooth and nail for the $40-60k jobs in Winston-Salem, Greensboro and Raleigh that median students would have had a great chance at in past years. People below the top third or so will either land a job through: (1) networking/connections; (2) persistence; (3) luck; or (4) not at all.

This is not to say that the school does not do a decent job at trying to adapt to the changed legal market (in fact I feel like we have overperformed during the downturn). It's just that the NC market is incredibly, incredibly bad and the economic Kharybdis is dragging UNC and Wake down hard no matter what the schools try to do about it.

Anecdotally, I also found the NC market as the hardest to crack during OCI as an out of state student. Firms here are incredibly suspicious if you didn't grow up in NC/SC/VA and aren't married or have kids.


Thanks for this post. This is kind of what I was concerned about. I'm glad that you were able to find a position in another market. I have ties outside of the state, and I will probably try to find something here and also try at least one other market.

ash0117
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby ash0117 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:35 pm

Hey guys!

Just wondering if any of you have taken exams for any of these professors:
-Reynolds
-Green
-Grebeldinger
-Kami Simmons

I am starting to develop my finals study plan over fall break and I just wanted to know if they focus on issue spotters or policy questions, BLL, cases or whatever. Not asking for specific questions, I'll use sample questions and model questions they provide for that. Just wanted to know what they favor, especially Reynolds and Green.

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moandersen
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby moandersen » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:20 am

ash0117 wrote:Hey guys!

Just wondering if any of you have taken exams for any of these professors:
-Reynolds
-Green
-Grebeldinger
-Kami Simmons

I am starting to develop my finals study plan over fall break and I just wanted to know if they focus on issue spotters or policy questions, BLL, cases or whatever. Not asking for specific questions, I'll use sample questions and model questions they provide for that. Just wanted to know what they favor, especially Reynolds and Green.


Ill help you out. Much better than writing this note...

Reynolds: mix of MC and essay. MC are hard/confusing/long hypos. Essays a little more straightforward and basically an issue spotter and follow IRAC or CREAC. Just know that her exam is a total crap shoot. I have friends (and including myself) get really burned from her exams either in contracts and family law. Many top students took her family law class p/f because shes known to kill gpa.

Green: I had him for civ pro, but it was basically a torts exam. mix of MC and essay. The exam will be long as hell - like 4.5 hours long, so you need to pace yourself. essay will be huge race horse style issue spotter (as most torts essays are). He also is a fan of the IRAC/CEAC method I believe. As for MC, expect a ton of questions that are a mix of easy and hard applying the BLL.

ash0117
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby ash0117 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:59 pm

moandersen wrote:
ash0117 wrote:Hey guys!

Just wondering if any of you have taken exams for any of these professors:
-Reynolds
-Green
-Grebeldinger
-Kami Simmons

I am starting to develop my finals study plan over fall break and I just wanted to know if they focus on issue spotters or policy questions, BLL, cases or whatever. Not asking for specific questions, I'll use sample questions and model questions they provide for that. Just wanted to know what they favor, especially Reynolds and Green.


Ill help you out. Much better than writing this note...

Reynolds: mix of MC and essay. MC are hard/confusing/long hypos. Essays a little more straightforward and basically an issue spotter and follow IRAC or CREAC. Just know that her exam is a total crap shoot. I have friends (and including myself) get really burned from her exams either in contracts and family law. Many top students took her family law class p/f because shes known to kill gpa.

Green: I had him for civ pro, but it was basically a torts exam. mix of MC and essay. The exam will be long as hell - like 4.5 hours long, so you need to pace yourself. essay will be huge race horse style issue spotter (as most torts essays are). He also is a fan of the IRAC/CEAC method I believe. As for MC, expect a ton of questions that are a mix of easy and hard applying the BLL.


Thanks so much! Ugh, Reynolds' MC quizzes already terrorize me... I was hoping for an all essay exam since I seem to do rather well on those, so far at least. Any study tips?

Wakelaw15
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Wakelaw15 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:26 pm

Is there any way to get old professor exams from prior years (other than those on file in the library)? Do they ever get returned?

Every class I'm in there's either no old exams released, or they are from like ten or more years ago.

SteelyDan
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby SteelyDan » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:37 pm

Wakelaw15 wrote:Is there any way to get old professor exams from prior years (other than those on file in the library)? Do they ever get returned?

Every class I'm in there's either no old exams released, or they are from like ten or more years ago.

Talk to the prof and see if they have any to add to the library's collection. Some of them just forget.

Alternatively, use exams from other profs who teach the same subject.

ash0117
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby ash0117 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:59 pm

Bumping for those applying and new admits that should be coming around soon :)

Bulls
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Bulls » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:06 pm

3L's, do 2L grades come out as they come in to the registrar? When should I start checking WIN for Foy's LegAd grade that just had to be run through the scantron machine?

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YankeesFan
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby YankeesFan » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:11 pm

^^^Interested in that answer as well

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moandersen
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby moandersen » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:24 pm

There is no big reveal. They show up as they come in.

pifhib2
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby pifhib2 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:48 pm

Yup. Two of mine already posted.

Wakelaw15
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Wakelaw15 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:01 pm

When do grades typically come out for 1Ls? Is after the new year a likely bet (exams started 11th final one was today).

pifhib2
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby pifhib2 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:55 am

Wakelaw15 wrote:When do grades typically come out for 1Ls? Is after the new year a likely bet (exams started 11th final one was today).


Yes.

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IrwinM.Fletcher
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:16 am

Wakelaw15 wrote:When do grades typically come out for 1Ls? Is after the new year a likely bet (exams started 11th final one was today).


Probably late in the afternoon on Friday, January 11.

Circlewave
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Circlewave » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:15 pm

Hi folks

I just got admitted - it's very exciting because it was my first one. I had a few questions about the school. I love it, but there's a few things that are really important to me:

1. Cost of Living - I've been living in DC for 4 years, so stuff's expensive as hell. I'm assuming WS is cheaper, but what's rent/food/gas/booze like? I might be getting some assistance, but I can't count on it.

2. Nightlife/Social Scene - I'm definitely not a club kind of dude, but I do like going to bars that are decently lively, and I'm a really big live music person. What sort of stuff can I expect?

3. Job Prospects - I'm interested in any personal experiences people can share, but specifically - I've heard (and seen in this thread) that North Carolina can be tough to break into if you're an outsider. Given that I was raised in Pittsburgh and don't have many ties to the area (save for a cousin and his wife in Greensboro), will I have a rough time of it finding work?

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YankeesFan
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby YankeesFan » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:38 am

Circlewave wrote:1. Cost of Living - I've been living in DC for 4 years, so stuff's expensive as hell. I'm assuming WS is cheaper, but what's rent/food/gas/booze like? I might be getting some assistance, but I can't count on it.


I came from a DC undergrad as well and I can tell you the difference is unbelievable. 1200 dollars got you a small apartment in foggy bottom, but my roommate and I pay a little more than half of that..combined. Gas is so much cheaper and drinks, depending on where you go can be anywhere from astoundingly cheap (Slopera, Roses) to just about DC prices (Tates, Finnegans).

Circlewave wrote:2. Nightlife/Social Scene - I'm definitely not a club kind of dude, but I do like going to bars that are decently lively, and I'm a really big live music person. What sort of stuff can I expect?


Nothing like DC, but a decent bar scene, especially on 4th Street and up by Finnegans.

Circlewave wrote:3. Job Prospects - I'm interested in any personal experiences people can share, but specifically - I've heard (and seen in this thread) that North Carolina can be tough to break into if you're an outsider. Given that I was raised in Pittsburgh and don't have many ties to the area (save for a cousin and his wife in Greensboro), will I have a rough time of it finding work?


It can be, especially at first. I am from the northeast originally, undergrad in DC and when I was interviewing as a 1L I always got asked Why NC? But I spent the summer working in NC and during my 2L interviews I was never again asked why NC. If your not from here, you almost need to spend the first summer in NC to make sure that people know you want to be here permanently. As for the prospects, I'm a little above median and I got some OCI interviews but struck out. However, I mass mailed like crazy (pretty much every firm from Asheville to Wilmington) and got tons of interviews and although I got hired by a mid-size firm in Charlotte in October, I am pretty sure I could have gotten one or more offers from other places in different cities. If you don't just rely on OCI and Simplicity you should be able to find something.

jstr00az
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby jstr00az » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:09 am

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:Legal market in NC is, ummmm, pretty rough.

Most people do not appreciate how hard the collapse of the financial industry hit this market. From about 1989-2007, Bank of America and Wachovia kicked an unbelievable amount of butt as beneficiaries of bank deregulation and the real estate bubble. This created a HUGE amount of work as law firms helped BofA and Wachovia gobble up hundreds (literally) of smaller state banks across the country in the 1990s. The 2000s saw these same firms (and market newcomers like Dechert and Cadwalader) make a Mount Everest of benjamins manufacturing crap CDOs and helping invent Satan's personal financial WMD, the credit default swap.

This all came to a grinding halt in 2008 when the banks dropped a nuke on the economy. Carpetbagging firms from NYC shrunk their offices from 150+ to 20-30 attorneys, and the NC firms mini-sized their SA classes from 20-25 down to 4-8. Leveraged finance, structured products, and other bank work was a disproportionately large part of NC big firm business and about 85% of that stuff has dried up and may never come back (no institutional buyer will touch CDOs and related products for years to come).

What does this mean to 1Ls and 0Ls? Know that there are roughly 1/3 as many SA spots here as there were from 1999-2008. This means that a lot of those qualified students (think top 25%, maybe LR) who would have snatched these coveted positions are now battling tooth and nail for the $40-60k jobs in Winston-Salem, Greensboro and Raleigh that median students would have had a great chance at in past years. People below the top third or so will either land a job through: (1) networking/connections; (2) persistence; (3) luck; or (4) not at all.

This is not to say that the school does not do a decent job at trying to adapt to the changed legal market (in fact I feel like we have overperformed during the downturn). It's just that the NC market is incredibly, incredibly bad and the economic Kharybdis is dragging UNC and Wake down hard no matter what the schools try to do about it.

Anecdotally, I also found the NC market as the hardest to crack during OCI as an out of state student. Firms here are incredibly suspicious if you didn't grow up in NC/SC/VA and aren't married or have kids.


I grew up in Va and am married:D. But, really, you don't think going to wake forest is enough? Do you think that not being from around NC/SC/VA is a big disadvantage? I feel like by going to a NC school you are showing your commitment. I am from around the area, so I guess I don't really know, though...


You are wrong. I went to UNC. I am married. I lived for 10 years in VA. I own a home in the Research Triangle. No firm would touch me. It is a brutal market. Very insular. Very good old boys, and crushed by the economy. The banking collapse as described above meant that people who would've otherwise had those jobs are trying to grab anything they can get. Wake Forest is in a worse position than UNC because it is out in Winston Salem, and not in Raleigh. I personally know many grads from 2010, 2011, and 2012 and its very rough.

If your dad knows someone who owed him a favor, and you're from NC born and raised, you stand a somewhat better chance.

jstr00az
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:36 am

Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby jstr00az » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:14 am

Circlewave wrote:Hi folks

I just got admitted - it's very exciting because it was my first one. I had a few questions about the school. I love it, but there's a few things that are really important to me:

1. Cost of Living - I've been living in DC for 4 years, so stuff's expensive as hell. I'm assuming WS is cheaper, but what's rent/food/gas/booze like? I might be getting some assistance, but I can't count on it.

2. Nightlife/Social Scene - I'm definitely not a club kind of dude, but I do like going to bars that are decently lively, and I'm a really big live music person. What sort of stuff can I expect?

3. Job Prospects - I'm interested in any personal experiences people can share, but specifically - I've heard (and seen in this thread) that North Carolina can be tough to break into if you're an outsider. Given that I was raised in Pittsburgh and don't have many ties to the area (save for a cousin and his wife in Greensboro), will I have a rough time of it finding work?


You will have a very tough time. Don't listen to what 1Ls or 2Ls are saying. They have no clue. In two years they will, but it will be too late. Look at the employment statistics for Wake from 2011. It is horrific from a price/debt and placement perspective. If you are not from NC you face suspicion from hiring partners. If you are, it's still rough, but at least you don't have to explain why you are in NC.

Wakelaw15
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Re: Wake Law Students taking Questions!!!

Postby Wakelaw15 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:31 am

jstr00az wrote:You will have a very tough time. Don't listen to what 1Ls or 2Ls are saying. They have no clue. In two years they will, but it will be too late. Look at the employment statistics for Wake from 2011. It is horrific from a price/debt and placement perspective. If you are not from NC you face suspicion from hiring partners. If you are, it's still rough, but at least you don't have to explain why you are in NC.


Wow. And this is from Christmas day. Im a 1L but have talked with a lot of upperclassmen. My sense is that if you have excellent grades (top 10% maybe top 20) you will be fine, and if you have reasonable grades (top half) you will have a shot if you have something else you bring to the table (work experience, likability/ability to generate business, etc.). If you have bad grades or even just mediocre grades and a doomsday, this is so f%%ked up, why is this happening attitude then you may be really screwed. A firm has no reason to hire someone with bad grades or a bad attitude in this economy.




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