Columbia 1L Taking Questions (Class of '11) Forum

[M51]

This board was so helpful during the application process, so here's to paying it forward.
CLS started classes on August 13th with Legal Methods, so we've been here for 5-6 weeks already, heading into our first "finals" (pass/fail).

Anything about Columbia in particular, Law School in general, or the Application process. Ask away!
My LSN is here: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/M51/jd
CLS Class of 2011 Information is here: http://www.law.columbia.edu/jd_applican ... assprofile

This summary is 25% wrong, at least. Do NOT use: http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/

edit: changed the thread title because I am sadly no longer a 1L

[kritiosboy]

.

[sluggo]

Any comments and/or speculation about Columbia as it relates to academia and/or clerkships would be great. How competitive with HYS is it, and how does it compare with Chi?

Your take on the experience on living in that part of NYC would also be great.

Perhaps most importantly, tell us what you can about the intangibles of the school. Specifically, what are your fellow classmates like? Do you have a bunch of uninteresting people that are just interested in making a lot of money after school. Are they sociable, etc?

Thanks in advance.

[M51]

I'm coming to Columbia on Thursday, what should I check out?

List off the top of my head:
- Campus. It's random and amazing in the middle of Manhattan. Plus, it's right across from the Law School. People eat their lunches on the steps, use the library, gym, etc.
- Cathedral. 112th and Amsterdam. Tourists come by the busload daily to gawk and take pictures. Since you're already here, why not.
- Broadway 110th - 116th. Walk it, gives you a nice feel of the Morningside Heights area. Not even close to midtown/downtown and you'll either love that, or hate it.
- Riverside Park. It's the park everyone goes to to run, etc. CLS already had a few events there so far. Nice place. Central Park's not that far also.
- Class. You probably should get permission first, but even if you don't, no one's going to notice you in a 1L Lecture (90+ students). I recommend a Torts class if you can find it.
- Bars. Most 1Ls will be at Bar Review on a Thursday night, at least for a bit. It's usually somewhere on the Upper West Side. PM me if you want the location for this week. It'll be crowded.
- Or: Local Bars. Lions Head (109th and Amsterdam), 1020 (110th and Amsterdam), and the Heights (112th and Broadway) are popular among law students.

Any comments and/or speculation about Columbia as it relates to academia and/or clerkships would be great. How competitive with HYS is it, and how does it compare with Chi?

Your take on the experience on living in that part of NYC would also be great.

Perhaps most importantly, tell us what you can about the intangibles of the school. Specifically, what are your fellow classmates like? Do you have a bunch of uninteresting people that are just interested in making a lot of money after school. Are they sociable, etc?

Thanks in advance.

Academia/Clerkship: I have no idea what the exactly #s are, but it's an option only for the upper performers. Top third probably have the option for a decent clerkship. It's not on the same level as HYS. From what I'm told it's more or less on the same level as Chicago. I've met very few people here who are interested in academia, and most are not interested in clerkship. There's certainly a corporate big-law vibe here in talking to fellow classmates, but also a sizable minority interested in public interest, and a fair amount of interest in international law.

Morningside Heights: It's hard to describe. But it's 100% NOT anyone's stereotype of Manhattan (whether good or bad). There are plenty of Columbia students around (mostly grad students), but very mixed with locals and a fair amount of tourists (Japanese tourists are hilarious ). Everything you want is within a 5 block radius, but it's never crowded. Lots of diversity, since we're between Harlem and a very hispanic stretch of upper west side. You have your popular student bars where on any given night, there'll be at least one group of CLS students there already, and your more local ones where you'll hardly ever see anyone you know there. I pass at least a few law students I know every weekend just running errands around the area. And of course, we're a 15 minute subway right from midtown, and 30 minutes from downtown.

People: Extemely social group. Interesting's subjective, but the people who seem like they're just going to bury thier heads in a book all 3 years make up at most 5% of the student body (or maybe I just never see them, since they're not out). With 400 people, you can't get to know everyone, but my general impressions are that no one's going to work themselves too hard. It's 6 weeks into the semester, and I still see the "gunners" out at bars and parties on weeknights. Feels a bit like high school, except the only classes are AP classes, everyone's 21+, and much less class incest . Oh, and a high number of married/engaged people. I think we're the most diverse student body of any T14 school too, and it really shows. Add in the 200 or so international LLMs each year, and some days it feels like a mini UN in the law school lobby. But, people are all from upper-middle to upper class families (I estimate 95%+), so that diversity thing's a little skewed. So far, the people have been amazing. The only thing that annoys me about the people is the polite humbleness everyone's so into. The next Yalie who tells me "Wow, everyone here's so smart, I feel overwhelmed".... ::mutters::

[riccardo426]

Thanks a lot.

In your case, why did you see Columbia as your out and out number 1 choice? (I'm making that conclusion from reading your LSN profile, which said you sent in a targeted LOR and added Columbia-specific things to your PS).

Do you find Columbia law harder than your undergraduate studies?

Can students get involved in the center for Law and Culture?

[jitsrenzo]

Amazing - Columbia is my first choice too. I just have a few quick questions. Thanks in advance!

1. How does Columbia compare to NYU? I know you haven't gone to NYU, but what made you want to ED at Columbia and not NYU?

2. How competitive is the school overall? Pretty cutthroat or are things OK?

3. How hard is it to get into the clinicals?

4. What are the 1L courses like? Do you have a set curriculum for the first year? You mentioned pass/fail - is that the grading system for the first semester/year?

I will post more if I can think of anything.

[M51]

Thanks a lot.

In your case, why did you see Columbia as your out and out number 1 choice? (I'm making that conclusion from reading your LSN profile, which said you sent in a targeted LOR and added Columbia-specific things to your PS).

Do you find Columbia law harder than your undergraduate studies?

Can students get involved in the center for Law and Culture?

I've always loved the Morningside Heights area, and would have gone there for UG if I had the choice. CLS was also the highest ranked school I had a shot at, so that didn't hurt . Law school so far has been a lot more work than UG, but I slacked off a lot in UG. I'm doing about 20 hours of class each week (including TA sessions) and 15 hours of law school related work outside of class. I can't say how "hard" it is until I take some finals and get grades back in Febuary. And yes, once you come here, every Club, Society, Center will ply you with free lunches and booze at every opportunity to lure you in. I've maybe paid for 3 weekday lunches in my 6 weeks here.

Amazing - Columbia is my first choice too. I just have a few quick questions. Thanks in advance!

1. How does Columbia compare to NYU? I know you haven't gone to NYU, but what made you want to ED at Columbia and not NYU?

2. How competitive is the school overall? Pretty cutthroat or are things OK?

3. How hard is it to get into the clinicals?

4. What are the 1L courses like? Do you have a set curriculum for the first year? You mentioned pass/fail - is that the grading system for the first semester/year?

I will post more if I can think of anything.

1. Well, besides the area (like I said, Morningside Heights is a totally differant experiance than the village), CLS does a lot more things to help/force(?) you to network and do things with your fellow 1Ls for the first month, whereas NYU just jumps right in. Sometimes, this felt like summer camp, but the result is a much more cohesive student body, not an easy task with 400 incoming students. From what I hear, CLS does a LOT more hand-holding than other Law Schools. We've also had more randomly extravagant dressy events than NYU law. Of course, we're paying for all this out of our tuitions, but it's nice to pretend it's free as advertised .

2. Out of 400 students, we've identified less than 10 gunners. And, like I said before, they all go out and have fun and most of them are really nice and fun people. Maybe 1 out of 5 people have cracked open a hornbook (extra study material) already, and only 2 out of 5 even have hornbooks. Very few people (<10%) are in study groups right now. Everyone'll get an objective "great" job when they graduate, not many people are looking for clerkships/acedemia, so the atmosphere is very low pressure. But, it's still law school, not UG, and people are more mature, which shows in thier attitude towards doing work. If it's there, people are more than willing to do it, but very few people are going above and beyond (or they're just lying to me about it ). I think it'll pick up in intensity by Thanksgiving.

3. You only pick 1 1L class, and it can't be a clinic. So, I have no idea.

4. 3 1L courses are pass/fail (Legal Meathods, Writting, Research). 3 are graded (Civ Pro, Contracts, Torts/ConLaw). Set classes except for one elective class spring semester. Almost every professor uses Socratic questioning, but it's soooooooooooo gentle. They're all but spoon feeding you the answers and/or just asking for your views on things (aka: make an arguement, any arguement). Most people have looked dumb in class by now, but it's not really a humiliating thing. Helps for class bonding . Professors are not all great, but the good ones are amazing. I've been lucky with my professors, but I've heard some grumblings. Usually, you get 2 great professors, and 1 meh one. Biggest complaint in general is that it's all theory and very little black letter law... but that's what you're supposed to get from good schools.

[jitsrenzo]

Thanks so much. I certainly hope to be able to join you.

[Haribo]

Do you have any "inside" information or insight on the dual degree programs with France and the UK? What is required to take part in them, and is it something that many students are interested in?

[littleboyblue]

looking back at your application package do you think there was one thing in it that really made you a standout or something you were particularly proud of?

[M51]

Do you have any "inside" information or insight on the dual degree programs with France and the UK? What is required to take part in them, and is it something that many students are interested in?

Nope. But I do hear rumblings that the UK one with the London School of Economics is superhard to get in.

looking back at your application package do you think there was one thing in it that really made you a standout or something you were particularly proud of?

I Early Decisioned. People will tell you it doesn't matter, it just limits your choices, etc... but check on LSN for evidence to the contrary. For CLS Index #s 4.2/4.3 it matters. If you're sure about Columbia being your top choice, I recommend ED. I even got some need-based aid after I was accepted when they had absolutely no incentive to give me any. CLS has also known to act unpredictably in financial aid bidding wars, as in, they'll up some offers and ignore others with no discernible pattern, so I wouldn't bank on that as a reason to not ED.

You can find my Personal Statement in the PS thread somewhere, but it was very much on the safe side. Being from a school (William and Mary) that's known for grade deflation probably helped compensate for my CLS-25percentile GPA. It's also why there's so many people here from Williams, Swarthmore, etc, even though those are tiny schools.

[nycgal73]

how do i get in ?! what types of columbia specific things should i put into my PS ?

[DOS]

Yep, another 1L at Columbia, my impressions very similar, and I do not even think I know M51.

As for getting in:

LSAT- even more important than it competitors. Roughly 400 people at CLS: 170-175 range. 75% at 175: this means that they now HAVE TO find about 100 people 176+ who are NOT going to HYS OR to any other attractive law school AND who are not hard splitters. Their simply are not that many strong soft splitters (3.33-3.65 (at 3.7 or higher w/176+ aren't you going to Harvard?)) existing with these scores. If you want to go to Columbia do very respectably in school (lots of people can do this) and break 175 on the LSAT (This requires skill and luck- hard). I was not even positive that I was going to apply to Columbia b/c of my GPA, but I got a fee waiver b/c of my LSAT and got in.

Diversity helps - Columbia (and not just the law school) takes this seriously. There is also a separate essay for diversity.

Go to a pedigree school like an Ivy. Their is a correlation here. There is also some circumstantial evidence too that this helps at CLS. I am not sure if it is a cause or an effect. However, if you are a close call, I think (but cannot prove) this would help you.

Look at the Index for CLS on LSN. But it is not fool-proof.

[underdawg]

Yep, another 1L at Columbia, my impressions very similar, and I do not even think I know M51.

As for getting in:

LSAT- even more important than it competitors. Roughly 400 people at CLS: 170-175 range. 75% at 175: this means that they now HAVE TO find about 100 people 176+ who are NOT going to HYS OR to any other attractive law school AND who are not hard splitters. Their simply are not that many strong soft splitters (3.33-3.65 (at 3.7 or higher w/176+ aren't you going to Harvard?)) existing with these scores. If you want to go to Columbia do very respectably in school (lots of people can do this) and break 175 on the LSAT (This requires skill and luck- hard). I was not even positive that I was going to apply to Columbia b/c of my GPA, but I got a fee waiver b/c of my LSAT and got in.

Diversity helps - Columbia (and not just the law school) takes this seriously. There is also a separate essay for diversity.

Go to a pedigree school like an Ivy. Their is a correlation here. There is also some circumstantial evidence too that this helps at CLS. I am not sure if it is a cause or an effect. However, if you are a close call, I think (but cannot prove) this would help you.

Look at the Index for CLS on LSN. But it is not fool-proof.

i'm sure there are lots of high schoolers on these boards that will take heed!

[DOS]

"i'm sure there are lots of high schoolers on these boards that will take heed!"

If your numbers/Index are really a little low for CLS, and you have the good fortune to go to a top UG, then I would spend the money and apply anyway. Based on the numbers released from Yale (see another thread), CLS gave people from there a noticeable bump.

[Ken]

M51, thanks on behalf of everyone for kindly paying it forward. Greatly appreciated.

If you think the Dean of Admissions or Dean would ever grant TLS an interview, that would be amazing. Just posted the interview of the Dean of Northwestern and the Dean of Admissions at Cornell gave a great interview that will be posted tomorrow, but Columbia would be a great addition as clearly there is a large amount of interest. Thanks again for coming back and answering everyone's questions.

Best,

Ken

[M51]

how do i get in ?! what types of columbia specific things should i put into my PS ?

Like DOS said, Columbia is huge on the index #, so try to do well on your LSATs (duh =P). This isn't very helpful, but in terms of what matters, it dwarfs everything else. If you have a 4.4+, you're pretty much in unless you have significant negative factors/application-gaffs.

My Personal Statement is here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=175
CLS has a wealth of information on their website about the school, including the entire registrar. I would only recommend you do the mini why-CLS thing at the end if your PS topic isn't stunningly great/unique, otherwise, it might burden the statement. There are many many things that make CLS unique among law schools. It doesn't hurt to show why you're specifically interested in some of these things. Doing the research shows Columbia a) That you're genuinely interested, and this is not just a rankings thing for you: So, higher yield rate, b) You've taken the time to find things out about CLS, so you're more invested in the school: So, higher yield rate. Law schools love things that give them higher yield rate. Imagine all the applications that end with something along the lines of "I'd love to go to Columbia Law School because it's a top law school and in New York City, a city which I really really love. Thus, I would be a perfect fit for CLS!" Sounds much more hollow without the research and substance. The more specific you can get, the better imo, just stay away from mentioning professor's names, unless you're 100% sure they won't be retiring/leaving/taking a sabbatical (which, you really can't be).

And thank YOU Ken, for setting up this amazing website. I'm really not sure I'd be where I am without all the great (and fast) application tips and advice around these boards.

[Missesmoo]

Thank you for your input!

My questions:

-What is your least favorite part about CLS (could be anything from location, to student body, to curriculum)?

-What do you think about your professors? Are they stimulating, boring, etc.

-(I know this topic has been beaten to death, but) Is there a wide breadth of undergraduate institutions represented? Any Caucasian students from lower ranked schools (who haven't cured cancer)? I realize you probably don't know where many people went to UG, but I figured I would ask

[Prodigy]

But, people are all from upper-middle to upper class families (I estimate 95%+)

Do they have any sort of elitist mentality when it comes to wealth / social status?

I would hate to be looked down upon for three years because I don't come from an upper class family.

[M51]

Thank you for your input!

My questions:

-What is your least favorite part about CLS (could be anything from location, to student body, to curriculum)?

-What do you think about your professors? Are they stimulating, boring, etc.

-(I know this topic has been beaten to death, but) Is there a wide breadth of undergraduate institutions represented? Any Caucasian students from lower ranked schools (who haven't cured cancer)? I realize you probably don't know where many people went to UG, but I figured I would ask

Least Favorite Part: Hmmm... Almost all people here are type A personalities. And you spend SO much time with other law students that it'll wear on you (even if you're also type A). I recommend regularly hanging out with friends who don't go to law school, just so it doesn't become too much. Columbia-specific? No complaints. The people exceed all expectations, the location was everything I thought it'd be, and curriculum is typical for 1L year. It's expensive though. I think the only school with a cost of living that exceed CLS is Yale. Sometimes, I have nightmares about accumulated interest torturing me with glee.

Professors: My professors are great. And I'm not just saying that, I truly enjoy them. For the most part, class is a mix of fun in watching the professor guide students to the point he/she wants to make (well, fun for me, but I'm a huge dork in that respect) and apprehension about being cold called. That is, all the "real" professors for Civ Pro, Contracts, Torts. The "not real" professors for legal writing and research are a different story. They're typically much much younger and not so good at running a small section (my TAs are much better). But you only see them 1-2 hours a week, it's pass/fail, and you'll get by fine.

UG Diversity: Actually, one of the first questions everyone asks you during orientation is naturally where you went to UG. That, plus a CLS-published "facebook" (yearbook-ish thing) that has everyone's information on it, means everyone knows where everyone else went to UG. There are a LOT of people from Yale and UPenn. Other than these two, the other Ivies are well represented except for Princeton. 25% of our incoming class is from California, and that's been traditionally the most well represented state, so lots of UCLA, USC, USD, etc. It's not just the top15 UG schools, but you'd find 90% of the people here coming from at least a top50 school or a really good liberal arts school. I haven't met anyone here from community college or anything like that, but maybe they just don't advertise. You're also not judged at all based on what UG you attended. If you're here from a lesser UG, you've already proven you belong since CLS probably rejected quite a # of people from HYP to let you in. Also, people from non-topUGs are not all URM. Most of them are white. Many of them straight out of UG. If you've got the #s... they trump other minor considerations. Most Random School: We have 2 people in our class from Lewis and Clark College. Unless you're from Oregon, I bet you've never heard of the school.

Do they have any sort of elitist mentality when it comes to wealth / social status?

I would hate to be looked down upon for three years because I don't come from an upper class family.

Not at all. It's not snobby rich kids. It's just all people who have never had to think a certain way. So, they don't notice/think about the things that someone who's been less well off would. The standard for "normal mentality" basically jumps up a few tax brackets, and you have much different childhood experiences etc. But nothing bad or exclusive or condescending at all. There's never any show of extravagance or anything either. Most people are/feel poor living in NYC, no matter how rich their parents are.

[yme16]

If you dont mind, could you please discribe your daily schedule, include study time ,thank you.

[M51]

If you dont mind, could you please describe your daily schedule, include study time ,thank you.

I would categorize myself as a medium worker at CLS. There are lots of people putting in more time, and lots of people putting in less time. It all depends on what you're going for (Top 33% = Stone Scholar, Top 3% = Kent Scholar, Top 99% = Great Job), and how efficient you are at reading cases/legal theory. I'm shooting for a Stone Scholar (::fingers crossed::), and I'm a mid-paced reader by law school standards. I thought I read fast before, but some people here are ridiculous.


Rough Schedual...

Monday: 11AM Wake up, shower, skip legal research class (P/F), grab lunch. 1PM-5PM Class/TA Sections. 5PM-6PM Dinner. 6PM-10PM Study. 10PM+ Go out, watch tv, etc. 3AM prepare for bed.
Tue/Wed/Thur: 9:30AM Wake up, shower, eat breakfast. 10:40AM-4PM Class (w/ 1 hour lunch break). 4PM-5PM Dinner. 5PM-8PM nap. 8PM-10PM Study. 10PM+ Go out, watch tv, etc. 3AM prepare for bed.
Friday/Sat/Sun: 10-15 hours of study time total.

If I really put my mind to it, I know I can cut down my total study time by 33%. But, then I wouldn't enjoy the reading as much. Besides Civ Pro, the other reading materials are all pretty fun. Just finished a case where defendant followed God's light while driving on to the other side of road, then believed that she was batman so stepped on the accelerator in face of oncoming traffic in order to fly. She didn't end up in the air until after the collision. Held: It's negligent to drive when you know you're prone to sudden bouts of insanity and delusions. Especially when batman can't actually fly.

Priceless.

[underdawg]

^
yeah the court applied a "reasonable FUCKING BATSHIT INSANE person" standard. good shit.

[neskerdoo]

Roughly 400 people at CLS: 170-175 range. 75% at 175: this means that they now HAVE TO find about 100 people 176+

or 101 people with a 175

[totalidiot]

If you dont mind, could you please describe your daily schedule, include study time ,thank you.

I would categorize myself as a medium worker at CLS. There are lots of people putting in more time, and lots of people putting in less time. It all depends on what you're going for (Top 33% = Stone Scholar, Top 3% = Kent Scholar, Top 99% = Great Job), and how efficient you are at reading cases/legal theory. I'm shooting for a Stone Scholar (::fingers crossed::), and I'm a mid-paced reader by law school standards. I thought I read fast before, but some people here are ridiculous.


Rough Schedual...

Monday: 11AM Wake up, shower, skip legal research class (P/F), grab lunch. 1PM-5PM Class/TA Sections. 5PM-6PM Dinner. 6PM-10PM Study. 10PM+ Go out, watch tv, etc. 3AM prepare for bed.
Tue/Wed/Thur: 9:30AM Wake up, shower, eat breakfast. 10:40AM-4PM Class (w/ 1 hour lunch break). 4PM-5PM Dinner. 5PM-8PM nap. 8PM-10PM Study. 10PM+ Go out, watch tv, etc. 3AM prepare for bed.
Friday/Sat/Sun: 10-15 hours of study time total.

If I really put my mind to it, I know I can cut down my total study time by 33%. But, then I wouldn't enjoy the reading as much. Besides Civ Pro, the other reading materials are all pretty fun. Just finished a case where defendant followed God's light while driving on to the other side of road, then believed that she was batman so stepped on the accelerator in face of oncoming traffic in order to fly. She didn't end up in the air until after the collision. Held: It's negligent to drive when you know you're prone to sudden bouts of insanity and delusions. Especially when batman can't actually fly.

Priceless.

first tls post in a while to make me laugh out loud haha.