Cornell 1L taking questions

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tyrant_flycatcher
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby tyrant_flycatcher » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:41 pm

CFC1524 wrote:
lowlands wrote:I searched the thread for this, but I'm asking again in case the answer has changed over the last few years: What's the public interest scene looking like these days? At ASW one student on the current student panel said he hoped/wished more Cornell students would pursue PI, which I found interesting. Are people finding good careers outside of biglaw? Are the resources and support there for the relatively few students who are pursuing PI?

I'm having a pretty tough time deciding between a few possible career paths, so I'm not committed to PI at the moment, just interested to hear people's take.

ETA I'm class of 2019.


A couple threshold points: yes, the large majority of students are not pursuing PI, and yes, sometimes it can feel like you're being pushed towards biglaw (although I'd add the push is more a result of professional realities than anything a classmate or the school does)

Obvious points aside, Cornell is a great place to pursue PI, and the "scene" is strong, supportive, and well-developed. There are a fair number of people directly pursing public interest jobs, and plenty more interested in related issues / involved in clinics, clubs, societies, etc. Essentially, there are lots of really good resources out there (Dean Comstack, teachers, upperclassmen, alumni, career services), you just have to be a little bit more engaged than someone who just wants a standard firm job in NYC. This is a good thing, honestly, as it keeps you involved / reminds you there are other things out there than your 4 doctrinals.

I'm a (soon-to-be) 2L, so I don't know too much about whether people "are finding good careers outside of biglaw." That said, of the 3L's and graduates I've talked to, all of them are employed in positions they find interesting / with organizations they wanted to work for. The new loan repayment program is solid (can speak more to this if you'd like), so that's something to bear in mind as well.


IDK whether the scene is "strong." Basically everyone on the PILU board my year now has a 2L SA. The respective boards at NYU and Michigan would probably pass out upon learning this. That said it does seem like Cornell has more resources for PI-focused students than actual PI-focused students, so you won't lack attention or opportunities. I'm pretty sure this past year Career Services extended the application deadline for a grant or fellowship for PI-focused students multiple times because there was no one there to claim it.

CFC1524
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby CFC1524 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:05 pm

lowlands wrote:Yeah, I'd love to hear more about the LRAP if you're willing; I'm not quite sure what changed when it was recently revamped.


Not sure how familiar you are with everything, so some of this may be a little redundant. Anyways, step one is getting a qualified job; basically, any standard PI or gov job will do the trick (legal aid, public defender, non-profit etc), although things can get a little tricky as you branch out to non-legal stuff. Clerkships don't qualify per se, but there is a deferral process setup where you can retroactively get your payments reimbursed. Assuming you have a qualifying job, you'll receive an annual award equal to the amount of your total IBR or PAYE payment. You don't have to place your loans in either program, but the award will be calculated as if you had. Max annual income is 80,000 (includes spouse if you file taxes jointly), and there's a discretionary cap at 15,000 per year. Most federal loans are eligible, and private loans you take out to study for the bar are eligible as well. You can stay in the program for a maximum of 10 (non-consecutive) years; if you still have loans at the end, they will (most likely) be forgiven under the fed's PSLF program.

I'm not too familiar with the old LRAP (it was gone when I applied), but I'm reasonably certain graduates had to make some sort of (relatively small) contribution. That's not the case anymore and obviously that's a pretty big improvement.

tyrant_flycatcher wrote:IDK whether the scene is "strong." Basically everyone on the PILU board my year now has a 2L SA. The respective boards at NYU and Michigan would probably pass out upon learning this. That said it does seem like Cornell has more resources for PI-focused students than actual PI-focused students, so you won't lack attention or opportunities. I'm pretty sure this past year Career Services extended the application deadline for a grant or fellowship for PI-focused students multiple times because there was no one there to claim it.


Yea, I guess "strong" was a bit misleading; I was referring more to the resources available than the number of students per se. I definitely agree that a large percentage of the class goes for biglaw, and I know quite a few in my year as well who started out with PI-goals but are most likely headed to a firm instead. That said, I'd probably wager this is fairly standard across the t-14; NYU is a notable exception (18.6% PI score on LST, plus double the student-body size), but Michigan has the same PI score as Cornell (12%) with a similar number of students. So yea, I guess strong wasn't quite right, but (independent of geographical preferences) Cornell is probably as good of a school for PI as most of the t-14

lowlands
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby lowlands » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:58 am

Thanks to you both for the answers, they are helpful. I suppose I'll just continue to think about this for what remains of the summer, and try to get involved with what I can once school starts. I know I may regret saying this at some point, but I seriously can't wait to get started.

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Mikey
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby Mikey » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:37 pm

Can someone below median at Cornell get biglaw or would it be a difficult?

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby smiles123 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:41 pm

^ I think that depends a lot on interview skills and prior work experience. To be honest, I'd say no. I know quite a few people who are below median and are mass mailing everywhere. Is it possible; absolutely. People below median get biglaw. People below median strike out. It just depends, and... a lot of it is based on luck whether you hit it off with an interviewer.

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby proteinshake » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:05 pm

smiles123 wrote:^ I think that depends a lot on interview skills and prior work experience. To be honest, I'd say no. I know quite a few people who are below median and are mass mailing everywhere. Is it possible; absolutely. People below median get biglaw. People below median strike out. It just depends, and... a lot of it is based on luck whether you hit it off with an interviewer.

If 65ish percent get big law, wouldn't that mean at least 15 percent below median get big law? and that's without including those who go on to Fed Clerk. what's wrong with this reasoning?

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby runinthefront » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:33 pm

proteinshake wrote:
smiles123 wrote:^ I think that depends a lot on interview skills and prior work experience. To be honest, I'd say no. I know quite a few people who are below median and are mass mailing everywhere. Is it possible; absolutely. People below median get biglaw. People below median strike out. It just depends, and... a lot of it is based on luck whether you hit it off with an interviewer.

If 65ish percent get big law, wouldn't that mean at least 15 percent below median get big law? and that's without including those who go on to Fed Clerk. what's wrong with this reasoning?

there's nothing wrong with that reasoning.

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby hopefuljumbo23 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:52 pm

runinthefront wrote:
proteinshake wrote:
smiles123 wrote:^ I think that depends a lot on interview skills and prior work experience. To be honest, I'd say no. I know quite a few people who are below median and are mass mailing everywhere. Is it possible; absolutely. People below median get biglaw. People below median strike out. It just depends, and... a lot of it is based on luck whether you hit it off with an interviewer.

If 65ish percent get big law, wouldn't that mean at least 15 percent below median get big law? and that's without including those who go on to Fed Clerk. what's wrong with this reasoning?

there's nothing wrong with that reasoning.


How many people do you guys think fall below median? I was estimating 50, since we are a 200 person class. Is that too few?

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proteinshake
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby proteinshake » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:57 pm

hopefuljumbo23 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
proteinshake wrote:
smiles123 wrote:^ I think that depends a lot on interview skills and prior work experience. To be honest, I'd say no. I know quite a few people who are below median and are mass mailing everywhere. Is it possible; absolutely. People below median get biglaw. People below median strike out. It just depends, and... a lot of it is based on luck whether you hit it off with an interviewer.

If 65ish percent get big law, wouldn't that mean at least 15 percent below median get big law? and that's without including those who go on to Fed Clerk. what's wrong with this reasoning?

there's nothing wrong with that reasoning.


How many people do you guys think fall below median? I was estimating 50, since we are a 200 person class. Is that too few?

wouldn't it be half (100).

or can I not math.

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runinthefront
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby runinthefront » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:05 pm

proteinshake wrote:
hopefuljumbo23 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
proteinshake wrote:
smiles123 wrote:^ I think that depends a lot on interview skills and prior work experience. To be honest, I'd say no. I know quite a few people who are below median and are mass mailing everywhere. Is it possible; absolutely. People below median get biglaw. People below median strike out. It just depends, and... a lot of it is based on luck whether you hit it off with an interviewer.

If 65ish percent get big law, wouldn't that mean at least 15 percent below median get big law? and that's without including those who go on to Fed Clerk. what's wrong with this reasoning?

there's nothing wrong with that reasoning.


How many people do you guys think fall below median? I was estimating 50, since we are a 200 person class. Is that too few?

wouldn't it be half (100).

or can I not math.

we can't math-- since many, many people could have the same exact GPA. So it doesn't have to be half ( i think). But in reality the original post was still off

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proteinshake
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby proteinshake » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:16 pm

runinthefront wrote:
proteinshake wrote:
hopefuljumbo23 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
proteinshake wrote:
smiles123 wrote:^ I think that depends a lot on interview skills and prior work experience. To be honest, I'd say no. I know quite a few people who are below median and are mass mailing everywhere. Is it possible; absolutely. People below median get biglaw. People below median strike out. It just depends, and... a lot of it is based on luck whether you hit it off with an interviewer.

If 65ish percent get big law, wouldn't that mean at least 15 percent below median get big law? and that's without including those who go on to Fed Clerk. what's wrong with this reasoning?

there's nothing wrong with that reasoning.


How many people do you guys think fall below median? I was estimating 50, since we are a 200 person class. Is that too few?

wouldn't it be half (100).

or can I not math.

we can't math-- since many, many people could have the same exact GPA. So it doesn't have to be half ( i think). But in reality the original post was still off

haha

and yeah I thought so, I heard below median biglaw is definitely doable via Lavitz

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby hopefuljumbo23 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:34 pm

proteinshake wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
proteinshake wrote:
hopefuljumbo23 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
proteinshake wrote:
smiles123 wrote:^ I think that depends a lot on interview skills and prior work experience. To be honest, I'd say no. I know quite a few people who are below median and are mass mailing everywhere. Is it possible; absolutely. People below median get biglaw. People below median strike out. It just depends, and... a lot of it is based on luck whether you hit it off with an interviewer.

If 65ish percent get big law, wouldn't that mean at least 15 percent below median get big law? and that's without including those who go on to Fed Clerk. what's wrong with this reasoning?

there's nothing wrong with that reasoning.


How many people do you guys think fall below median? I was estimating 50, since we are a 200 person class. Is that too few?

wouldn't it be half (100).

or can I not math.

we can't math-- since many, many people could have the same exact GPA. So it doesn't have to be half ( i think). But in reality the original post was still off

haha

and yeah I thought so, I heard below median biglaw is definitely doable via Lavitz


Okay yeah, fair enough. I wasn't clear. I guess in my head I was thinking - median isn't announced to anyone. People guesstimate that it's somewhere around 3.4. So like people perceive median as somewhere between 3.3 to 3.5. So when I say below median, I guess I don't mean LITERALLY below the median - I mean somewhere below 3.3.

Does that make any sense?

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby Lavitz » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:01 pm

I mean, there shouldn't be more than a couple of people with the exact same gpa which also happens to be the median. There is a median gpa. You are either above it, below it, or the person(s) with it. So it should be half above, half below, but as you note, the point is that what is "below median" in reality doesn't matter at all. All that matters is whether an employer thinks "this is below median" when they pick up your resume. How many people that will happen to will mostly depend on the employer and how closely they pay attention to the grade explanation sheet. But how many are below the 3.35 estimated median? Idk, maybe 35%? 3.2? Maybe 20%? But I'm also just making this up.

Also, getting biglaw in general, regardless of grades, depends on interviewing skills and other factors. Grades make you eligible for better firms, interviewing gets you the job. It's a bit easier for people with good grades primarily because their grades get them in the door at firms with larger class sizes that can afford to hire more people. And sure, sometimes interviewers will be so impressed with grades that they'll lower the bar for you. And if your grades are really bad, yeah, that'll hurt. But just "below median" is not going to be noticeably different than just above median. You'll generally be interviewing with firms in the same gpa range.

I've been getting conflicting reports on how well the class of 2018 in the aggregate. But it sounds like it's the typical feast or famine almost completely unrelated to gpa and almost entirely dependent on personality. And at the end of the day, over 70% of your class should get biglaw.

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby hopefuljumbo23 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:38 am

Lavitz wrote:I mean, there shouldn't be more than a couple of people with the exact same gpa which also happens to be the median. There is a median gpa. You are either above it, below it, or the person(s) with it. So it should be half above, half below, but as you note, the point is that what is "below median" in reality doesn't matter at all. All that matters is whether an employer thinks "this is below median" when they pick up your resume. How many people that will happen to will mostly depend on the employer and how closely they pay attention to the grade explanation sheet. But how many are below the 3.35 estimated median? Idk, maybe 35%? 3.2? Maybe 20%? But I'm also just making this up.

Also, getting biglaw in general, regardless of grades, depends on interviewing skills and other factors. Grades make you eligible for better firms, interviewing gets you the job. It's a bit easier for people with good grades primarily because their grades get them in the door at firms with larger class sizes that can afford to hire more people. And sure, sometimes interviewers will be so impressed with grades that they'll lower the bar for you. And if your grades are really bad, yeah, that'll hurt. But just "below median" is not going to be noticeably different than just above median. You'll generally be interviewing with firms in the same gpa range.

I've been getting conflicting reports on how well the class of 2018 in the aggregate. But it sounds like it's the typical feast or famine almost completely unrelated to gpa and almost entirely dependent on personality. And at the end of the day, over 70% of your class should get biglaw.


Thanks for this, Lavitz!

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby ForumCommissar » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:37 pm

I'm pretty new to TLS and law in general so forgive me if this is an ignorant set of questions.

Right now I plan on having a 3.8 UGPA, but worst case scenario I get a 3.6-3.7. I haven;t taken the LSAT, of course, but I'm aiming to just break 170, as I got a 160 on my diagnostic and I want to be conservative with how much I can improve over the next year.

I understand Cornell has pretty decent NYC Biglaw, which is the route I want to take. I'm already used to working long, 60-hour weeks from the summer, only instead it was for shit pay; so Biglaw, though likely more stressful (I will have far less bargaining power) will not completely stun me.

Assuming I get say, a 171, with my 3.8 GPA, it seems I could get significant scholarship to go to Cornell. Would this be my best route, or would I be better off at a place like NYU even though I'd get far less scholarship (about half according to lsn).

I also live near Chicago so I'm used to the New York type climate.

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby Lavitz » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:07 pm

ForumCommissar wrote:I'm pretty new to TLS and law in general so forgive me if this is an ignorant set of questions.

Right now I plan on having a 3.8 UGPA, but worst case scenario I get a 3.6-3.7. I haven;t taken the LSAT, of course, but I'm aiming to just break 170, as I got a 160 on my diagnostic and I want to be conservative with how much I can improve over the next year.

I understand Cornell has pretty decent NYC Biglaw, which is the route I want to take. I'm already used to working long, 60-hour weeks from the summer, only instead it was for shit pay; so Biglaw, though likely more stressful (I will have far less bargaining power) will not completely stun me.

Assuming I get say, a 171, with my 3.8 GPA, it seems I could get significant scholarship to go to Cornell. Would this be my best route, or would I be better off at a place like NYU even though I'd get far less scholarship (about half according to lsn).

I also live near Chicago so I'm used to the New York type climate.

I chose Cornell with 150K over NYU with 62K. Don't regret it. If you're just interested in NYC biglaw, there should be no difference in your employment outcomes. Only difference will be living in Ithaca vs. living in NYC during law school. Living in NYC would be worth some premium for most people, but it was definitely not enough in my case (difference would have been 100K at repayment).

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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby ForumCommissar » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:10 pm

Lavitz wrote:
ForumCommissar wrote:I'm pretty new to TLS and law in general so forgive me if this is an ignorant set of questions.

Right now I plan on having a 3.8 UGPA, but worst case scenario I get a 3.6-3.7. I haven;t taken the LSAT, of course, but I'm aiming to just break 170, as I got a 160 on my diagnostic and I want to be conservative with how much I can improve over the next year.

I understand Cornell has pretty decent NYC Biglaw, which is the route I want to take. I'm already used to working long, 60-hour weeks from the summer, only instead it was for shit pay; so Biglaw, though likely more stressful (I will have far less bargaining power) will not completely stun me.

Assuming I get say, a 171, with my 3.8 GPA, it seems I could get significant scholarship to go to Cornell. Would this be my best route, or would I be better off at a place like NYU even though I'd get far less scholarship (about half according to lsn).

I also live near Chicago so I'm used to the New York type climate.

I chose Cornell with 150K over NYU with 62K. Don't regret it. If you're just interested in NYC biglaw, there should be no difference in your employment outcomes. Only difference will be living in Ithaca vs. living in NYC during law school. Living in NYC would be worth some premium for most people, but it was definitely not enough in my case (difference would have been 100K at repayment).

I couldn't care less about where I live during law school, and have no interest in PI unless it was financially sound for me to do so. Cornell is definitely shaping up as the best option here unless Northwestern gives me significant scholarship as well.

petitprince
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby petitprince » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:15 pm

Hi there!
I am not quite sure how this thread works - would it be not welcome to ask for PS advice/review here?
I am aiming for 2017 entry and currently working through my applications. Would really appreciate if someone can offer some advice on my PS/other materials, or is willing to have a chat - please write me a private message!

Thanks a ton, :)

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hopefuljumbo23
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby hopefuljumbo23 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:43 pm

If you do an externship, you still have to pay full tuition right (minus whatever scholly you have)?

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Yea All Right
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby Yea All Right » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:30 pm

hopefuljumbo23 wrote:If you do an externship, you still have to pay full tuition right (minus whatever scholly you have)?


Yup

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hopefuljumbo23
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby hopefuljumbo23 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:54 am

Yea All Right wrote:
hopefuljumbo23 wrote:If you do an externship, you still have to pay full tuition right (minus whatever scholly you have)?


Yup


Thanks. Def not doing an externship then, lol.

Does anyone have any thoughts on education law at Cornell? Trying to see if I should make it my elective next semester!

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Lavitz
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby Lavitz » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:22 am

hopefuljumbo23 wrote:Thanks. Def not doing an externship then, lol.

Does anyone have any thoughts on education law at Cornell? Trying to see if I should make it my elective next semester!

Heise is awesome, and I've heard it's a pretty interesting class. IIRC, it's hard to get an A, but easy to get an A- if you're good at spotting issues and typing fast. I wish I had taken it during 2L, but I'm not a morning person, and I also wasn't aware he wouldn't teach it during my 3L year.

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hopefuljumbo23
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby hopefuljumbo23 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:13 pm

Lavitz wrote:
hopefuljumbo23 wrote:Thanks. Def not doing an externship then, lol.

Does anyone have any thoughts on education law at Cornell? Trying to see if I should make it my elective next semester!

Heise is awesome, and I've heard it's a pretty interesting class. IIRC, it's hard to get an A, but easy to get an A- if you're good at spotting issues and typing fast. I wish I had taken it during 2L, but I'm not a morning person, and I also wasn't aware he wouldn't teach it during my 3L year.


Awesome! It's at 8:35 on Tues and Thurs next semester, so that's the only deterring factor. I'm still gonna take it though :D - so pumped to have an elective next semester!!!

alembicox1188
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby alembicox1188 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:18 pm

3.79/164

I was accepted to Cornell ED earlier this week and I do not expect to get any scholarship. When I applied, I believed that the reputation of a Cornell degree is worth the money. But after withdrawing my other applications I am beginning to get nervous about the cost. I got a full ride to a tier 2 NY school (the only offer I received before the Cornell decision) and I think I could have gotten decent $$$ from a top 30 school.

i know that around half of the students at Cornell are paying sticker. Are these students under more pressure to get good grades compared to those who got scholarships? Is landing a 160k Big Law position the only way to make Cornell worth sticker? Do I have a shot at getting some $$$?

I just want to know the general strategy and outlook of somebody paying sticker (and taking on lots of debt) at a lower top 14. I am really excited about attending Cornell but now I am really starting to think about how I can make my degree viable with lots of debt.

wyattg
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Re: Cornell 1L taking questions

Postby wyattg » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:23 pm

alembicox1188 wrote:3.79/164

I was accepted to Cornell ED earlier this week and I do not expect to get any scholarship. When I applied, I believed that the reputation of a Cornell degree is worth the money. But after withdrawing my other applications I am beginning to get nervous about the cost. I got a full ride to a tier 2 NY school (the only offer I received before the Cornell decision) and I think I could have gotten decent $$$ from a top 30 school.

i know that around half of the students at Cornell are paying sticker. Are these students under more pressure to get good grades compared to those who got scholarships? Is landing a 160k Big Law position the only way to make Cornell worth sticker? Do I have a shot at getting some $$$?

I just want to know the general strategy and outlook of somebody paying sticker (and taking on lots of debt) at a lower top 14. I am really excited about attending Cornell but now I am really starting to think about how I can make my degree viable with lots of debt.


Can you take a year off and retake/reapply regular decision? I had a 3.5/167 and got a surprisingly decent scholarship at Cornell, so with your GPA you could probably get serious $$ if you retake.




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