Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

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nixy

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby nixy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:59 pm

I don’t think this is actually true, but if so, I would be very curious to know what order they did the degrees (i.e. MSW —> JD —> lawyer makes more sense than JD —> MSW —> lawyer).

AspiringAspirant

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby AspiringAspirant » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:34 pm

Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:It could be a good credential to have if, say, you're interested in child welfare law.


QContinuum wrote:Have you looked at the average salaries of, and positions held by, social work grads? MSW programs are for folks who really want to be social workers. It's not some kind of networking nirvana for attorneys.

Pursue a MSW if you want to be a social worker. Otherwise, don't go. It won't help you get a legal job, and, especially since you'd be pursuing it post-law school, may even hurt (by causing people to think you don't actually want to be a lawyer).


I've made up my mind that I want to attend graduate school in fall 2019. This thread is about the comparative rigor of a JD versus other programs. You guys are derailing the thread.


You must be new here.

QContinuum

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby QContinuum » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:47 pm

nixy wrote:I don’t think this is actually true, but if so, I would be very curious to know what order they did the degrees (i.e. MSW —> JD —> lawyer makes more sense than JD —> MSW —> lawyer).


Or possibly maybe they did the MSW during law school - I know someone doing that rn. You can "double count" some credits, so some people like getting two degrees instead of one. But like nixy, I strongly suspect that JD --> MSW --> lawyer is uncommon.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby kellyjohnson » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:30 am

You have to understand: there are too many lawyers, so it is a very competitive atmosphere, and (most) law schools are designed to show who is better than who, so that those at the top can seek very limited number of prestigious opportunities.

On the other hand, there are not enough social workers, so its totally different. A 3.8 in social work probably doesnt afford you many more opportunities than a 3.2 -- you get the degree, get the license, and you can get a job as a social worker. I dont know that any social worker jobs are really any more prestigious than any other social worker job, or that employers care about GPA nearly as much as the prestige-obsessed law school. Its likely to be a totally different atmosphere.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:00 pm

AspiringAspirant wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:It could be a good credential to have if, say, you're interested in child welfare law.


QContinuum wrote:Have you looked at the average salaries of, and positions held by, social work grads? MSW programs are for folks who really want to be social workers. It's not some kind of networking nirvana for attorneys.

Pursue a MSW if you want to be a social worker. Otherwise, don't go. It won't help you get a legal job, and, especially since you'd be pursuing it post-law school, may even hurt (by causing people to think you don't actually want to be a lawyer).


I've made up my mind that I want to attend graduate school in fall 2019. This thread is about the comparative rigor of a JD versus other programs. You guys are derailing the thread.


You must be new here.


I've been lurking here since early 2010.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:03 pm

QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:I don’t think this is actually true, but if so, I would be very curious to know what order they did the degrees (i.e. MSW —> JD —> lawyer makes more sense than JD —> MSW —> lawyer).


Or possibly maybe they did the MSW during law school - I know someone doing that rn. You can "double count" some credits, so some people like getting two degrees instead of one. But like nixy, I strongly suspect that JD --> MSW --> lawyer is uncommon.


Uncommon, but they exist. Found one: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystallyons/

QContinuum

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:39 pm

Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:I don’t think this is actually true, but if so, I would be very curious to know what order they did the degrees (i.e. MSW —> JD —> lawyer makes more sense than JD —> MSW —> lawyer).


Or possibly maybe they did the MSW during law school - I know someone doing that rn. You can "double count" some credits, so some people like getting two degrees instead of one. But like nixy, I strongly suspect that JD --> MSW --> lawyer is uncommon.


Uncommon, but they exist. Found one: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystallyons/


Thanks for the great example! This strongly supports nixy's and my point: She summered at Irell 1L and MTO 2L, graduated Order of the Coif in '08, served as a CoA clerk from '08-'09, then practiced law full-time, first at a firm, then in government, from 2009 all the way through 2017. After practicing law full-time for 9 years after graduation (2008-2017), she enrolled in a MSW program in '17, and is now in the middle of her second social work internship.

In short, this is evidently someone who's practiced law for almost a decade, and apparently wants to transition out of it (or at least partially out of it; she apparently has a pretty cushy law teaching gig at New England). Alternately, maybe she just always wanted to earn a MSW, and decided to go for it the way some professionals go back to pursue a degree in poetry or fine arts.

In any case, this isn't you - rather the opposite. It's crystal clear (lol) that she's not using her MSW to get a job in child welfare law.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:48 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:I don’t think this is actually true, but if so, I would be very curious to know what order they did the degrees (i.e. MSW —> JD —> lawyer makes more sense than JD —> MSW —> lawyer).


Or possibly maybe they did the MSW during law school - I know someone doing that rn. You can "double count" some credits, so some people like getting two degrees instead of one. But like nixy, I strongly suspect that JD --> MSW --> lawyer is uncommon.


Uncommon, but they exist. Found one: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystallyons/


Thanks for the great example! This strongly supports nixy's and my point: She summered at Irell 1L and MTO 2L, graduated Order of the Coif in '08, served as a CoA clerk from '08-'09, then practiced law full-time, first at a firm, then in government, from 2009 all the way through 2017. After practicing law full-time for 9 years after graduation (2008-2017), she enrolled in a MSW program in '17, and is now in the middle of her second social work internship.

In short, this is evidently someone who's practiced law for almost a decade, and apparently wants to transition out of it (or at least partially out of it; she apparently has a pretty cushy law teaching gig at New England). Alternately, maybe she just always wanted to earn a MSW, and decided to go for it the way some professionals go back to pursue a degree in poetry or fine arts.

In any case, this isn't you - rather the opposite. It's crystal clear (lol) that she's not using her MSW to get a job in child welfare law.


She got an MSW and is a practicing lawyer, not a social worker:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleanor-cashmore-90948260/

QContinuum

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:01 pm

Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:I don’t think this is actually true, but if so, I would be very curious to know what order they did the degrees (i.e. MSW —> JD —> lawyer makes more sense than JD —> MSW —> lawyer).


Or possibly maybe they did the MSW during law school - I know someone doing that rn. You can "double count" some credits, so some people like getting two degrees instead of one. But like nixy, I strongly suspect that JD --> MSW --> lawyer is uncommon.


Uncommon, but they exist. Found one: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystallyons/


Thanks for the great example! This strongly supports nixy's and my point: She summered at Irell 1L and MTO 2L, graduated Order of the Coif in '08, served as a CoA clerk from '08-'09, then practiced law full-time, first at a firm, then in government, from 2009 all the way through 2017. After practicing law full-time for 9 years after graduation (2008-2017), she enrolled in a MSW program in '17, and is now in the middle of her second social work internship.

In short, this is evidently someone who's practiced law for almost a decade, and apparently wants to transition out of it (or at least partially out of it; she apparently has a pretty cushy law teaching gig at New England). Alternately, maybe she just always wanted to earn a MSW, and decided to go for it the way some professionals go back to pursue a degree in poetry or fine arts.

In any case, this isn't you - rather the opposite. It's crystal clear (lol) that she's not using her MSW to get a job in child welfare law.


She got an MSW and is a practicing lawyer, not a social worker:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleanor-cashmore-90948260/


Thanks, another great example! This person earned her MSW prior to earning her JD (and appears to have partially combined the two degrees in order to take advantage of the "double counting" credits I mentioned above). Again, this is not you.

Look, if you keep digging, notwithstanding your lack of success with your first two examples, I'm sure you'll eventually uncover someone who finished law school, then dove straight into social work school, yet is now practicing law. Well over 30k students earn their JDs every year - inevitably there will be someone who followed that up with an MSW. I'm not going to keep playing LinkedIn whack-a-mole with you, going example by example. The important thing is that even if/when you find an example or two of the sort you're looking for, that would hardly indicate that the JD, then MSW, then lawyer career trajectory is common, nor would it indicate that getting a post-JD MSW is helpful for advancing one's legal career (let alone more helpful than any of a number of cheaper alternatives which have been suggested ITT).

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:18 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:I don’t think this is actually true, but if so, I would be very curious to know what order they did the degrees (i.e. MSW —> JD —> lawyer makes more sense than JD —> MSW —> lawyer).


Or possibly maybe they did the MSW during law school - I know someone doing that rn. You can "double count" some credits, so some people like getting two degrees instead of one. But like nixy, I strongly suspect that JD --> MSW --> lawyer is uncommon.


Uncommon, but they exist. Found one: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystallyons/


Thanks for the great example! This strongly supports nixy's and my point: She summered at Irell 1L and MTO 2L, graduated Order of the Coif in '08, served as a CoA clerk from '08-'09, then practiced law full-time, first at a firm, then in government, from 2009 all the way through 2017. After practicing law full-time for 9 years after graduation (2008-2017), she enrolled in a MSW program in '17, and is now in the middle of her second social work internship.

In short, this is evidently someone who's practiced law for almost a decade, and apparently wants to transition out of it (or at least partially out of it; she apparently has a pretty cushy law teaching gig at New England). Alternately, maybe she just always wanted to earn a MSW, and decided to go for it the way some professionals go back to pursue a degree in poetry or fine arts.

In any case, this isn't you - rather the opposite. It's crystal clear (lol) that she's not using her MSW to get a job in child welfare law.


She got an MSW and is a practicing lawyer, not a social worker:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleanor-cashmore-90948260/


Thanks, another great example! This person earned her MSW prior to earning her JD (and appears to have partially combined the two degrees in order to take advantage of the "double counting" credits I mentioned above). Again, this is not you.

Look, if you keep digging, notwithstanding your lack of success with your first two examples, I'm sure you'll eventually uncover someone who finished law school, then dove straight into social work school, yet is now practicing law. Well over 30k students earn their JDs every year - inevitably there will be someone who followed that up with an MSW. I'm not going to keep playing LinkedIn whack-a-mole with you, going example by example. The important thing is that even if/when you find an example or two of the sort you're looking for, that would hardly indicate that the JD, then MSW, then lawyer career trajectory is common, nor would it indicate that getting a post-JD MSW is helpful for advancing one's legal career (let alone more helpful than any of a number of cheaper alternatives which have been suggested ITT).


I just think an Ivy degree would be a nice thing to have and could enhance my skills/network.

Also, I'm not diving straight into an MSW program after graduating from the JD. I will have gotten two years of JD required work experience.

nixy

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby nixy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:43 pm

But not legal practice, because you’re not admitted yet, right?

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:48 pm

nixy wrote:But not legal practice, because you’re not admitted yet, right?


I'm clerking, so it's JD required. I can't turn down an Ivy. I just can't.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:57 pm

Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
nixy wrote:But not legal practice, because you’re not admitted yet, right?


I'm clerking, so it's JD required. I can't turn down an Ivy. I just can't.


You'll be way more marketable in the legal job market coming out of a clerkship vs. applying after spending two years pursuing a MSW (i.e., two years not practicing law) post-clerkship.

Glad the Ivy mystique is apparently alive and well.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:43 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
nixy wrote:But not legal practice, because you’re not admitted yet, right?


I'm clerking, so it's JD required. I can't turn down an Ivy. I just can't.


You'll be way more marketable in the legal job market coming out of a clerkship vs. applying after spending two years pursuing a MSW (i.e., two years not practicing law) post-clerkship.

Glad the Ivy mystique is apparently alive and well.


Even with a one year period of unemployment following the clerkship?

nixy

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby nixy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:41 pm

Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
nixy wrote:But not legal practice, because you’re not admitted yet, right?


I'm clerking, so it's JD required. I can't turn down an Ivy. I just can't.

Okay, but the Ivy MA isn’t a MSW, right, so why are you talking about MSW programs?

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:05 pm

nixy wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:
nixy wrote:But not legal practice, because you’re not admitted yet, right?


I'm clerking, so it's JD required. I can't turn down an Ivy. I just can't.

Okay, but the Ivy MA isn’t a MSW, right, so why are you talking about MSW programs?


Columbia has an MSW program.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby nixy » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:30 am

I thought you were already admitted to a non-MSW Ivy MA program, so you’re not turning down an Ivy MSW?

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:21 pm

nixy wrote:I thought you were already admitted to a non-MSW Ivy MA program, so you’re not turning down an Ivy MSW?


Yes I was admitted but I want to keep my options open.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby QContinuum » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:34 pm

I'm still just not sure exactly what OP expects to get from an Ivy MSW - or, for that matter, from an Ivy MA. Does OP think Ivy MSW/MA programs arrange special networking/career events for lawyers? That Ivy MSW/MA career services folks will have an 'in' to various legal positions? That a lawyer looking to hire a lawyer will say, "oh, this applicant has an Ivy Master's in English! S/he must be a great lawyer"?

The proverbial man on the street will likely be impressed by any Ivy degree. The typical lawyer looking to hire will not consider a non-legal Ivy degree relevant - they will focus on OP's legal credentials.

(Note that I specifically speak above about MSW/MA degrees. There are cases where a Master's might add some value in a legal job search - e.g., an M.Eng. might help someone seeking a patent prosecution gig - but I can't see any case where a MSW/MA degree would be a value add worth the tuition and opportunity cost of attending.)

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:35 pm

QContinuum wrote:I'm still just not sure exactly what OP expects to get from an Ivy MSW - or, for that matter, from an Ivy MA. Does OP think Ivy MSW/MA programs arrange special networking/career events for lawyers? That Ivy MSW/MA career services folks will have an 'in' to various legal positions? That a lawyer looking to hire a lawyer will say, "oh, this applicant has an Ivy Master's in English! S/he must be a great lawyer"?

The proverbial man on the street will likely be impressed by any Ivy degree. The typical lawyer looking to hire will not consider a non-legal Ivy degree relevant - they will focus on OP's legal credentials.

(Note that I specifically speak above about MSW/MA degrees. There are cases where a Master's might add some value in a legal job search - e.g., an M.Eng. might help someone seeking a patent prosecution gig - but I can't see any case where a MSW/MA degree would be a value add worth the tuition and opportunity cost of attending.)


The degree/knowledge/network is valuable in and of itself.

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby paradiselost9 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:11 pm

Bodhicaryavatara wrote:Recent law graduate here, contemplating next steps. How rigorous are MSW programs, for instance, compared to JD programs? Are you graded on a forced curve like in law school? Should I expect to spend significantly more time on classes compared to in a JD program? Is the stress level and workload much greater? I'm just concerned that I can't "hack it" or that I'm not fit for graduate-level studies since I was a middling law student.

So, for those of you with another advanced degree on top of your JD, how did the programs compare?


i can tell you that my rando state school engineering college kicked my ass way more than my fancy law school did fwiw

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Re: Comparative level of difficulty of other graduate and professional programs versus the JD?

Postby Bodhicaryavatara » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:53 am

paradiselost9 wrote:
Bodhicaryavatara wrote:Recent law graduate here, contemplating next steps. How rigorous are MSW programs, for instance, compared to JD programs? Are you graded on a forced curve like in law school? Should I expect to spend significantly more time on classes compared to in a JD program? Is the stress level and workload much greater? I'm just concerned that I can't "hack it" or that I'm not fit for graduate-level studies since I was a middling law student.

So, for those of you with another advanced degree on top of your JD, how did the programs compare?


i can tell you that my rando state school engineering college kicked my ass way more than my fancy law school did fwiw


Yeah, that makes sense. I'm not looking at anything STEM related.



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