Why Work 1L Summer?

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pricon
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Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby pricon » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:12 pm

You could go hike the Appalachian Trail with a hottie, or something.

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UVA2B
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:17 pm

This can't be serious, but in case it is: if you want continued employment as an attorney following law school, you'll need legal work to demonstrate your ability to handle the work, and equally important, you need legal work that you can talk about in an interview. Hiking the Appalachian Trail sounds like all kinds of fun I'm sure, but lawyers aren't going to interview you about your experience on the Appalachian Trail when they're considering bringing you on as an associate.

It's a professional school. Treat the school like it's a profession.

pricon
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby pricon » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:20 pm

Sure, it's serious. People downplay this summer's importance in OCI on this thread. Just connected the wrong dots.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:24 pm

What exact legal work you do 1L summer is not crucial for OCI/other job opportunities. Not doing legal work of any kind will make you stand out, not in a good way.

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UVA2B
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:25 pm

Ok, so maybe you mistook what people were saying when they say it doesn't matter what you do during 1L summer prior to OCI. It doesn't matter so long as it's legal experience you can talk about during interviews. Firm job, government job, internship with a judge, in-house internship, or unpaid PI internship are all perfectly valid experiences during the summer. But flat-out doing nothing/having fun during the summer is not a great plan. It'll show a lack of commitment to the profession, and further, it won't give you legal work to speak about in your interviews during OCI and other hiring avenues.

ETA: Scooped

pricon
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby pricon » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:28 pm

Sums it up. Also explains the lack of AT hiking being reported.

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Vursz
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby Vursz » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:39 pm

I always look at resumes to see what people did during their summers. If there's nothing legal there, it looks baaaaaaaad. Almost fatally so.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby BmoreOrLess » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:21 am

You'll have all the time in the world to hike the Appalachian Trail with hotties during 2L/3L.

NoDayButToday
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby NoDayButToday » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:51 am

I think it's a good idea to work at least part of the summer, though I was talking with my uncle the other day (partner at Southern biglaw firm), and he was recommending for 1L summer finding something 4-6 weeks instead of 8-12. (I'm done with law school, but have cousins who are starting 1L this year) Basically, he was suggesting a split without taking on a second position. Most 1L summer positions don't pay and it can be more expensive to be working for free (with commute costs or the need to live in a certain area for the summer to be close to the jobs) than to be just hanging out. We were talking generally about the problem of burn-out, both post-1L in law school and at firms, and he pointed out that when he was in law school a lot of people really didn't work 1L summer, and that work-life balance was generally better. I know in the more competitive markets, firms/orgs don't necessarily go for splitting, but personally I wish he and I had had this discussion when I was looking for work 1L summer. I never had a break through all of law school--there was always journal work or longer term projects/papers to be done during summers and winter breaks. I always got the sense most classmates were in the same position. So, while the experience is important for OCI purposes, I think if you can find a half-summer experience, that's good enough and could be better for you, mentally, in the long-term.

cavalier1138
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:54 am

NoDayButToday wrote:I think it's a good idea to work at least part of the summer, though I was talking with my uncle the other day (partner at Southern biglaw firm), and he was recommending for 1L summer finding something 4-6 weeks instead of 8-12. (I'm done with law school, but have cousins who are starting 1L this year) Basically, he was suggesting a split without taking on a second position. Most 1L summer positions don't pay and it can be more expensive to be working for free (with commute costs or the need to live in a certain area for the summer to be close to the jobs) than to be just hanging out. We were talking generally about the problem of burn-out, both post-1L in law school and at firms, and he pointed out that when he was in law school a lot of people really didn't work 1L summer, and that work-life balance was generally better. I know in the more competitive markets, firms/orgs don't necessarily go for splitting, but personally I wish he and I had had this discussion when I was looking for work 1L summer. I never had a break through all of law school--there was always journal work or longer term projects/papers to be done during summers and winter breaks. I always got the sense most classmates were in the same position. So, while the experience is important for OCI purposes, I think if you can find a half-summer experience, that's good enough and could be better for you, mentally, in the long-term.


When your uncle was in law school, the job search consisted of rolling out of bed into a junior associate position at a decent firm.

I appreciate the idea of getting a bit more of a break during the summer, but that's not something anyone's going to give you in the workforce. And boomer attorneys (boomers in general, too) are some of the worst people to ask for job advice.

NoDayButToday
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby NoDayButToday » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:06 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
NoDayButToday wrote:I think it's a good idea to work at least part of the summer, though I was talking with my uncle the other day (partner at Southern biglaw firm), and he was recommending for 1L summer finding something 4-6 weeks instead of 8-12. (I'm done with law school, but have cousins who are starting 1L this year) Basically, he was suggesting a split without taking on a second position. Most 1L summer positions don't pay and it can be more expensive to be working for free (with commute costs or the need to live in a certain area for the summer to be close to the jobs) than to be just hanging out. We were talking generally about the problem of burn-out, both post-1L in law school and at firms, and he pointed out that when he was in law school a lot of people really didn't work 1L summer, and that work-life balance was generally better. I know in the more competitive markets, firms/orgs don't necessarily go for splitting, but personally I wish he and I had had this discussion when I was looking for work 1L summer. I never had a break through all of law school--there was always journal work or longer term projects/papers to be done during summers and winter breaks. I always got the sense most classmates were in the same position. So, while the experience is important for OCI purposes, I think if you can find a half-summer experience, that's good enough and could be better for you, mentally, in the long-term.


When your uncle was in law school, the job search consisted of rolling out of bed into a junior associate position at a decent firm.

I appreciate the idea of getting a bit more of a break during the summer, but that's not something anyone's going to give you in the workforce. And boomer attorneys (boomers in general, too) are some of the worst people to ask for job advice.


Fair, things have changed--his tuition also would have been a lot less (he is Gen X, but still, point taken) and there was generally less competition. Still, why not take a break when you can, though, even if it's not something you're going to get in the workforce? The fact that work is going to be intense with fewer breaks is, in my mind an even better argument for making the most of the opportunities you could have to relax.

Besides, if you take a summer associate position that is say, May 27 to July 7 instead of say, May 20 to July 31, what difference does it make to the screeners in OCI? Your LinkedIn or your resume are going to say "May to July" regardless. And even if it is just "June and July," is that really going to hurt you?

pricon
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby pricon » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:43 am

I agree that the specific question of "why work the last 2-3 weeks in July" is not as easy to answer.

As for burnout: not only is heading toward biglaw the better concern over interning three extra weeks, but interning three extra weeks does not break anyone who should be going to law school in the first place.

NoDayButToday
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby NoDayButToday » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:36 pm

It probably would not break someone no, but it does take a toll in the long-term. I really don't understand why we value nose-to-the-grindstone over balance in the country and in this industry. Just because someone can handle it doesn't mean we should expect them, too. We should value vacation and down-time more in this country. I think if people took more breaks, where they can afford them, they'd have more stamina and do better work for longer. We work in an industry with an alarming rate of alcoholism, substance abuse, and untreated mental health problems. People can't turn it off so they self-medicate instead. Every time I've vacationed with an attorney, they have their work phone on hand to take calls from the beach or their work laptops to spend mornings answering emails while their families sleep. It's not healthy and it's not sustainable--we have to be able to turn our work off and learn to relax. The work never ends, regardless of your field of law, so we have to impose boundaries. It's not such a radical idea--most other developed countries have labor policies that encourage their workers to rest and relax with loved ones. And I think if we worked on reversing this trend as early as law school summer legal employment, especially 1L summer where everyone concedes it doesn't matter what you're doing, we could see a happier, healthier, and more efficient legal workforce across the board.

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jchiles
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby jchiles » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:50 pm

I think if you can't get a 1L SA, law clerk job at a well-regarded small firm or company that pays well, or a funded internship placement and are stuck with an unpaid position, you should just do 6 weeks there and on you resume list it as "summer 201_: bogus internship" or whatever. I was never asked about the actual dates of my summer employment at OCI or in other interviews.

But you can't get away with doing nothing law-related 1L summer unless you have a really good explanation and probably not even then.

pricon
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby pricon » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:56 pm

It's a self-fulfilling cycle. You are expecting a lot out of people, to ask them get organized despite huge obstacles (maybe the prisoner's dilemma). Cultural changes need to come from on high. If our legislature desystematizes the greed prerequisite for financial security, I'll be on board. I do my part and vote accordingly, then I play the game as it's handed out. Income disparity is skyrocketing. Get on the rocket or move to Sweden.

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jchiles
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby jchiles » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:00 pm

pricon wrote:It's a self-fulfilling cycle. You are expecting a lot out of people, to ask them get organized despite huge obstacles (maybe the prisoner's dilemma). Cultural changes need to come from on high. If our legislature desystematizes the greed prerequisite for financial security, I'll be on board. I do my part and vote accordingly, then I play the game as it's handed out. Income disparity is skyrocketing. Get on the rocket or move to Sweden.


Nah dude what I'm saying is just do a 6 week summer internship and move on

pricon
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby pricon » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:58 pm

jchiles wrote:
pricon wrote:It's a self-fulfilling cycle. You are expecting a lot out of people, to ask them get organized despite huge obstacles (maybe the prisoner's dilemma). Cultural changes need to come from on high. If our legislature desystematizes the greed prerequisite for financial security, I'll be on board. I do my part and vote accordingly, then I play the game as it's handed out. Income disparity is skyrocketing. Get on the rocket or move to Sweden.


Nah dude what I'm saying is just do a 6 week summer internship and move on


Sorry, I was perhaps unclearly responding to the post just before yours, by NoDayButToday. Like I said, I actually think there is some merit to your idea.
Last edited by pricon on Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

merde_happens
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby merde_happens » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:59 pm

If I interviewed a candidate with literally zero 1L summer experience it would be an auto-reject unless they had some super compelling reason. It's like a) I have nothing to talk to you about now, b) I don't know if you have any work ethic or capability to be at least somewhat competent in a professional environment (doubly bad if you were k-JD), and c) wtf were you doing with your time? Summer breaks are long - there's plenty of time to work and go hike the Appalachian trail.

Even if it's just part-time or only for a month, you need to do something.

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rpupkin
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Re: Why Work 1L Summer?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:06 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
NoDayButToday wrote:I think it's a good idea to work at least part of the summer, though I was talking with my uncle the other day (partner at Southern biglaw firm), and he was recommending for 1L summer finding something 4-6 weeks instead of 8-12. (I'm done with law school, but have cousins who are starting 1L this year) Basically, he was suggesting a split without taking on a second position. Most 1L summer positions don't pay and it can be more expensive to be working for free (with commute costs or the need to live in a certain area for the summer to be close to the jobs) than to be just hanging out. We were talking generally about the problem of burn-out, both post-1L in law school and at firms, and he pointed out that when he was in law school a lot of people really didn't work 1L summer, and that work-life balance was generally better. I know in the more competitive markets, firms/orgs don't necessarily go for splitting, but personally I wish he and I had had this discussion when I was looking for work 1L summer. I never had a break through all of law school--there was always journal work or longer term projects/papers to be done during summers and winter breaks. I always got the sense most classmates were in the same position. So, while the experience is important for OCI purposes, I think if you can find a half-summer experience, that's good enough and could be better for you, mentally, in the long-term.


When your uncle was in law school, the job search consisted of rolling out of bed into a junior associate position at a decent firm.

I appreciate the idea of getting a bit more of a break during the summer, but that's not something anyone's going to give you in the workforce.

Most 1L jobs I see are not "in the workforce" in the normal sense of that phrase. There are plenty of 1L-internship employers that would be fine with someone working for 4-6 weeks. So long as the 1L job is legal, and so long as the applicant spends enough time there to say something semi-intelligent about it during an OCI interview, I think the "work for 4-6 weeks" advice isn't bad. You won't get many more chances in life to travel (or do whatever you'd like) for 1-2 free months.




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