Steps to 1L SA

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UVA2B
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby UVA2B » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:59 pm

Sharpy wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
Sharpy wrote:
Mullens wrote:So what's your back up plan then?


For 2L and beyond, I will target midsize firms and local government jobs in both Virginia and Pittsburgh, as well as trying to leverage some of my connections in Pittsburgh for a job at the bigger firms there. Because of prior undergrad work in law firms in Pittsburgh I do have some connections to the biglaw market there.


to be clear: a large part of your backup plan if you don't get biglaw is to pursue biglaw, is that what I'm reading?
Mullens wrote:
Sharpy wrote:
Mullens wrote:So what's your back up plan then?


For my 1L summer, a judge that I know well in Pittsburgh's Court of Common Pleas has offered to help me find employment so I plan on pursuing that.

For 2L and beyond, I will target midsize firms and local government jobs in both Virginia and Pittsburgh, as well as trying to leverage some of my connections in Pittsburgh for a job at the bigger firms there. Because of prior undergrad work in law firms in Pittsburgh I do have some connections to the biglaw market there.


So if you actually have read as much TLS as you claim, then you know that your plan is target midsize firms isn't really a back up plan at all. And you also know that you can't just waltz into some government job after you strike out of biglaw because most of those jobs require a proven commitment to the work.

I'm concerned that you're unrealistically optimistic about your chances of landing biglaw and that your school choice doesn't match your goals. Good luck and I hope you succeed against the odds.



Thank you for the input. While I will not succumb to the TLS status quo of believing that it's t14 or bust when it comes to landing any kind of meaningful legal employment, I do appreciate the advice and discussion. Always a refreshing reminder of how cynical the internet can be.


Will you succumb to statistics?

24% in BL+FC
4.9% in what could possibly be considered "midlaw"
9.8% in law firms of 2-10 attorneys
10.2% unemployed
11.6% in state and local clerkships
16.9% in government service (no specification of which kind, but it's pretty likely most of these are state or local government, with a few federal mixed in)


Juxtapose these stats with a forced curve, and you should feel appropriately concerned about your employment out of W&M. They don't have horrible employment prospects, but at best 30% end up in your primary and alternate goals. Depending on how much you're paying for W&M as an OOS student hoping to go back to Pittsburgh, it's just decidedly risky for what you think you want.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wm/

Sharpy
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby Sharpy » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:37 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:A: Give me advice.
B: [Advice]
A: No, not that advice! Advice that makes me feel great about my poor decisions!
B: [Advice]
A: You're too cynical. See you when I'm a millionaire, suckas!


More like

A: Give me advice
B: [Dont go to law school unless you go to t14]
A: Well that's not what I asked, can I get some advice on my original question?
B: [It's not even worth trying to get a good job if you go to a school thats not in the t14, give up now]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

UVA2B wrote:
Sharpy wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
Sharpy wrote:
Mullens wrote:So what's your back up plan then?


For 2L and beyond, I will target midsize firms and local government jobs in both Virginia and Pittsburgh, as well as trying to leverage some of my connections in Pittsburgh for a job at the bigger firms there. Because of prior undergrad work in law firms in Pittsburgh I do have some connections to the biglaw market there.


to be clear: a large part of your backup plan if you don't get biglaw is to pursue biglaw, is that what I'm reading?
Mullens wrote:
Sharpy wrote:
Mullens wrote:So what's your back up plan then?


For my 1L summer, a judge that I know well in Pittsburgh's Court of Common Pleas has offered to help me find employment so I plan on pursuing that.

For 2L and beyond, I will target midsize firms and local government jobs in both Virginia and Pittsburgh, as well as trying to leverage some of my connections in Pittsburgh for a job at the bigger firms there. Because of prior undergrad work in law firms in Pittsburgh I do have some connections to the biglaw market there.


So if you actually have read as much TLS as you claim, then you know that your plan is target midsize firms isn't really a back up plan at all. And you also know that you can't just waltz into some government job after you strike out of biglaw because most of those jobs require a proven commitment to the work.

I'm concerned that you're unrealistically optimistic about your chances of landing biglaw and that your school choice doesn't match your goals. Good luck and I hope you succeed against the odds.



Thank you for the input. While I will not succumb to the TLS status quo of believing that it's t14 or bust when it comes to landing any kind of meaningful legal employment, I do appreciate the advice and discussion. Always a refreshing reminder of how cynical the internet can be.


Will you succumb to statistics?

24% in BL+FC
4.9% in what could possibly be considered "midlaw"
9.8% in law firms of 2-10 attorneys
10.2% unemployed
11.6% in state and local clerkships
16.9% in government service (no specification of which kind, but it's pretty likely most of these are state or local government, with a few federal mixed in)


Juxtapose these stats with a forced curve, and you should feel appropriately concerned about your employment out of W&M. They don't have horrible employment prospects, but at best 30% end up in your primary and alternate goals. Depending on how much you're paying for W&M as an OOS student hoping to go back to Pittsburgh, it's just decidedly risky for what you think you want.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wm/


I will be graduating from W&M debt free and I also do not have any student loan debt from undergrad either.

Your statistics are correct, however, in terms of "my primary and alternate goals" your 30% number is incorrect. Government service as well state/local clerkships are absolutely career paths that I would be interested in if I could not attain biglaw, they have to be as a result of going to W&M, so those would have to be factored into your percentage as well. In addition to that, 6.7% of graduates also obtain jobs in business & industry which I would also not be opposed to if not able to secure biglaw.

With that in mind I got to a 64% chance that I will obtain either my primary or alternate goals by attending W&M.
http://law.wm.edu/careerservices/docume ... ummary.pdf

I do understand that it may seem like my "alternate" goals are shifting and that I am grasping at straws, but if I don't secure biglaw I'm basically going to take any job I can get out of W&M and the only one that I don't even want to consider doing is working in a firm with 2-10 attorneys. That combined with going there debt free doesn't make it as risky to my as you are making it out to be.

I'm also just curious, in your opinion, what circumstances do you think would make attending W&M not risky? In your opinion, is there any value in attending a school thats not in the t14?

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UVA2B
Posts: 2384
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby UVA2B » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:45 pm

Sharpy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:A: Give me advice.
B: [Advice]
A: No, not that advice! Advice that makes me feel great about my poor decisions!
B: [Advice]
A: You're too cynical. See you when I'm a millionaire, suckas!


More like

A: Give me advice
B: [Dont go to law school unless you go to t14]
A: Well that's not what I asked, can I get some advice on my original question?
B: [It's not even worth trying to get a good job if you go to a school thats not in the t14, give up now]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

UVA2B wrote:
Sharpy wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
Sharpy wrote:
Mullens wrote:So what's your back up plan then?


For 2L and beyond, I will target midsize firms and local government jobs in both Virginia and Pittsburgh, as well as trying to leverage some of my connections in Pittsburgh for a job at the bigger firms there. Because of prior undergrad work in law firms in Pittsburgh I do have some connections to the biglaw market there.


to be clear: a large part of your backup plan if you don't get biglaw is to pursue biglaw, is that what I'm reading?
Mullens wrote:
Sharpy wrote:
Mullens wrote:So what's your back up plan then?


For my 1L summer, a judge that I know well in Pittsburgh's Court of Common Pleas has offered to help me find employment so I plan on pursuing that.

For 2L and beyond, I will target midsize firms and local government jobs in both Virginia and Pittsburgh, as well as trying to leverage some of my connections in Pittsburgh for a job at the bigger firms there. Because of prior undergrad work in law firms in Pittsburgh I do have some connections to the biglaw market there.


So if you actually have read as much TLS as you claim, then you know that your plan is target midsize firms isn't really a back up plan at all. And you also know that you can't just waltz into some government job after you strike out of biglaw because most of those jobs require a proven commitment to the work.

I'm concerned that you're unrealistically optimistic about your chances of landing biglaw and that your school choice doesn't match your goals. Good luck and I hope you succeed against the odds.



Thank you for the input. While I will not succumb to the TLS status quo of believing that it's t14 or bust when it comes to landing any kind of meaningful legal employment, I do appreciate the advice and discussion. Always a refreshing reminder of how cynical the internet can be.


Will you succumb to statistics?

24% in BL+FC
4.9% in what could possibly be considered "midlaw"
9.8% in law firms of 2-10 attorneys
10.2% unemployed
11.6% in state and local clerkships
16.9% in government service (no specification of which kind, but it's pretty likely most of these are state or local government, with a few federal mixed in)


Juxtapose these stats with a forced curve, and you should feel appropriately concerned about your employment out of W&M. They don't have horrible employment prospects, but at best 30% end up in your primary and alternate goals. Depending on how much you're paying for W&M as an OOS student hoping to go back to Pittsburgh, it's just decidedly risky for what you think you want.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/wm/


I will be graduating from W&M debt free and I also do not have any student loan debt from undergrad either.

Your statistics are correct, however, in terms of "my primary and alternate goals" your 30% number is incorrect. Government service as well state/local clerkships are absolutely career paths that I would be interested in if I could not attain biglaw, they have to be as a result of going to W&M, so those would have to be factored into your percentage as well. In addition to that, 6.7% of graduates also obtain jobs in business & industry which I would also not be opposed to if not able to secure biglaw.

With that in mind I got to a 64% chance that I will obtain either my primary or alternate goals by attending W&M.
http://law.wm.edu/careerservices/docume ... ummary.pdf

I do understand that it may seem like my "alternate" goals are shifting and that I am grasping at straws, but if I don't secure biglaw I'm basically going to take any job I can get out of W&M and the only one that I don't even want to consider doing is working in a firm with 2-10 attorneys. That combined with going there debt free doesn't make it as risky to my as you are making it out to be.

I'm also just curious, in your opinion, what circumstances do you think would make attending W&M not risky? In your opinion, is there any value in attending a school thats not in the t14?


Debt free from W&M if you're truly ok with local government, small law firm, etc. types of jobs is a fantastic outcome. That's exactly the type of situation where W&M makes perfect sense. But you very significantly buried the lead by looking first for 1L SAs in Biglaw, with a backup plan equally difficult in midlaw, and left that local government part as sort of an afterthought.

Your characterization of TLS being exclusively T14 or bust is wildly accusatory and also pretty much baseless. But if you ultimately wanted to do Biglaw and wouldn't be happy with the types of jobs you are clearly ok with, W&M would not be a great call. There is significantly more nuance to choosing a law school than just "T14 or bust," "T1 regional for free," etc. Now that you've supplied what is enough information in my mind to give any advice, I'd say W&M is perfectly reasonable for you.

ETA: and for the record, people did answer your question substantively and the rest of this discussion is more appropriately threshold discussion for what you ultimately cared about: 1L SAs

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RedGiant
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby RedGiant » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:52 pm

This is a bit OOS, but if you are genuinely interested in transactional law, then you should consider working in-house, instead of at any sort of job that a judge from the Court of Common Pleas can help you land. If you are indeed truly interested in transactional law, there's a lot to be gained from working in-house your 1L summer. First, these jobs pay, and many judicial clerkships do not. Second, these give you broad exposure to many types of business law--drafting, commercial contracts, whatever industry the Co is in, possibly securities and M&A, depending on what's going on at the company that summer. This is not an option you hear about a ton on TLS, and in-house jobs tend to be posted later (so you have to hold out for them), but there are a ton of them, and they are good, paying, well-received (by biglaw recruiters) jobs. Keep that in mind too.

Also, please, please, please, before you go to law school--lose the argumentativeness. Just soften your tone. Don't be that guy. You don't need to be right. You don't need to be smarter. Just be more pleasant to deal with. This will pay dividends. Good luck.

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Future Ex-Engineer
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby Future Ex-Engineer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:53 pm

Every few weeks there is a thread where OP is so dumb I actually laugh out loud at work from reading when I'm supposed to be doing something else.

OP succeeded in being the most recent addition to that club.

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carsondalywashere
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby carsondalywashere » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:56 pm

RedGiant wrote:This is a bit OOS, but if you are genuinely interested in transactional law, then you should consider working in-house, instead of at any sort of job that a judge from the Court of Common Pleas can help you land. If you are indeed truly interested in transactional law, there's a lot to be gained from working in-house your 1L summer. First, these jobs pay, and many judicial clerkships do not. Second, these give you broad exposure to many types of business law--drafting, commercial contracts, whatever industry the Co is in, possibly securities and M&A, depending on what's going on at the company that summer. This is not an option you hear about a ton on TLS, and in-house jobs tend to be posted later (so you have to hold out for them), but there are a ton of them, and they are good, paying, well-received (by biglaw recruiters) jobs. Keep that in mind too.

Also, please, please, please, before you go to law school--lose the argumentativeness. Just soften your tone. Don't be that guy. You don't need to be right. You don't need to be smarter. Just be more pleasant to deal with. This will pay dividends. Good luck.

What about doing in-house for people interested in litigation?

cavalier1138
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:23 pm

Sharpy wrote:A: Give me advice
B: [Dont go to law school unless you go to t14]
A: Well that's not what I asked, can I get some advice on my original question?
B: [It's not even worth trying to get a good job if you go to a school thats not in the t14, give up now]


Literally no one has said that in any thread, let alone this one.

Of course, if you define "good job" as "biglaw" (and you certainly appear to), then you should go to a school that gives you a reasonable chance at that job. W&M doesn't, and you're rushing into a decision which will affect the rest of your life.

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melmelcoolj
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby melmelcoolj » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:10 pm

Mullens wrote:
melmelcoolj wrote:
Mullens wrote:
Sharpy wrote:Hi everyone. I'm a 0L who will be starting at W&M in the fall. While I know that as a result of attending W&M my big law prospects are somewhat limited and can vary greatly depending on how I do, I was just curious whether anyone could provide a rough idea on what the necessary steps would be if I wanted a shot at securing a 1L SA at a firm? For instance, GPA range I should be targeting, when I should be applying, what firms are more likely to take 1L's (if that's even a thing), etc.

Market does not matter, but since NYC is the largest one and therefore gives me the most opportunities, you can answer under the assumption that NYC is where I will be looking.

Thanks in advance.


Step 1: Go somewhere other than W&M. I mean that seriously. Almost all 1L SAs go to students at T14 schools who have very high grades and/or are diverse.

Step 2: Apply on December 1st or shortly thereafter. Definitely apply before you get grades.

Step 3: Go to law firm receptions and network

Step 4: Even if you do everything right, there's a decent chance you strike out at a T14. Very very unlikely you get a 1L SA at a market-paying firm in NYC from W&M.


I'm also an incoming 1L matriculating at one of the CCN. I'm wondering what qualifies for "diverse" for law firms? When you say "have very high grades," what do you mean? Top 50%? Top 20%? Top 10%? Top 1%? I know it probably varies from firm to firm. Does one have to be URM, or one can be just some minority (i.e. not a straight middle class white male) in terms of sexual orientation, nationality, race, etc.?

I'm just trying to realistically assess my chances. And since you mentioned applying in December, I'm a little confused -- I assume grades don't come out till late in December. How can I know I have "very high grades" before I see them?

Sorry if these are naive questions -- I'm new to legal employment, and thanks in advance for your help.


Law firm diversity is much more in line with conventional notions of diversity than the law school URM categories. The reason that diversity matters for 1L SAs is because some firms only hire 1Ls through a diversity program. These jobs usually require some sort of diversity statement and are more holistic in their review of candidates than the firms might be during OCI (as in, they don't care about grades and some hire before grades even come out but do care strongly about school).

Grades can matter because some firms will hire 1L SAs only after seeing their grades. I know it's confusing that you have to apply in December and then the firms don't even hire until January/February, but the advice exists for a couple reasons. Some firms will start the interview process in December before grades come out and then wait to make final decisions until they see grades. Other firms will hire without grades from top schools (usually HYSCCN only). And some firms will wait until grades come out and then interview candidates solely based on grades. The level of grades that are required varies. When I was a 1L, it seemed like firms would only look at you if you were in the top 10% if not diverse. And even then, it was still somewhat of a crapshoot. 1L hiring has expanded a bit in recent years so you might find something with lower grades, but it's probably related to the strong economy and who knows if that will continue.

1L SAs are just much more of a crapshoot than finding a job through 2L OCI. Firms take far fewer students (some take none at all) and so they can be pickier about candidates. The thing to remember is that while a 1L SA is nice out of a CCN, it is by no means required to get biglaw during your 2L summer. 1L summer offers you the chance to try some other area of the law that might interest you down the road (public interest, government, in-house) and get that experience before you go into biglaw from 2L summer and beyond. In many cases, I would argue that students might even be better served in the long run doing something other than biglaw their 1L summer.


Thanks so much Mullens for the very detailed answer! Unlike the OP, I'm not really set on getting an 1L SA -- anything law school-related would be okay for me (e.g. public interest, government, in-house, NGOs, international courts, research, etc.) I don't necessarily NEED to work in a biglaw firm my 1L summer, but I just want to see what "diversity internships" are about.

The reason I'm asking is that I don't think I will be top 10% at CNN, unless something truly ridiculous happens -- that said, I'm somewhat diverse. So I guess I will only get into the firms that only care about my school name, or want me for my so-called diversity.

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jaekeem
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby jaekeem » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:30 pm

Well, this was an amusing topic.

As someone who spent his undergrad at w&m (at uva now), enjoy Williamsburg tc! beautiful city. kinda small and quaint though.

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barkschool
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby barkschool » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:48 pm

carsondalywashere wrote:What about doing in-house for people interested in litigation?


Some in-house field a lot of their litigation through a senior vp or someone experienced, and if you could get into one of those companies and help out in some limited capacity it would be a good way to pivot to litigation.

You would also get business experience ("experience") in the meantime.

But, most in-house companies farm their litigation to outside counsel. You would have to ask "do you deal with a lot of litigation, how often does outside counsel assist on litigation matters, ect..."

ausimpv
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby ausimpv » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:32 pm

What I've learned is that people on this forum love giving drastic advice and convincing people they will fail, maybe because they did. OP, while you do need to be realistic, 1L SA's are mostly reserved for URMs. You also need decent grades first semester, like top 25%. I am a URM with a 1L SA getting paid the market rate of $180k and no I'm not at a T14. Yes, I got the only spot over the countless T14 individuals who applied. No, I did not know anyone in the firm. What got me the job was interviewing skills and following up, and professionalism. Or maybe it was luck, idk. So there's nothing wrong with having big law as your goal. But just be realistic and don't get hung up on having it your first summer.. second summer is the one that matters anyway. Good luck.

cavalier1138
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:38 pm

ausimpv wrote:What I've learned is that people on this forum love giving drastic advice and convincing people they will fail, maybe because they did. OP, while you do need to be realistic, 1L SA's are mostly reserved for URMs. You also need decent grades first semester, like top 25%. I am a URM with a 1L SA getting paid the market rate of $180k and no I'm not at a T14. Yes, I got the only spot over the countless T14 individuals who applied. No, I did not know anyone in the firm. What got me the job was interviewing skills and following up, and professionalism. Or maybe it was luck, idk. So there's nothing wrong with having big law as your goal. But just be realistic and don't get hung up on having it your first summer.. second summer is the one that matters anyway. Good luck.


If you'd bothered to read the thread, you would have noticed that literally everyone mentioned that diversity hires are possible from anywhere. The OP is not a URM, so this kind of go-get-'em-tiger bullshit is just pointless.

No one is giving "drastic" advice. Everyone in this thread has correctly identified the chances of getting biglaw from W&M, and no one has claimed that failure is guaranteed. The point is that going to a school with a specific goal when that school gives you very low chances at achieving that goal is a dumb risk to take.

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carsondalywashere
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby carsondalywashere » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:52 pm

barkschool wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:What about doing in-house for people interested in litigation?


Some in-house field a lot of their litigation through a senior vp or someone experienced, and if you could get into one of those companies and help out in some limited capacity it would be a good way to pivot to litigation.

You would also get business experience ("experience") in the meantime.

But, most in-house companies farm their litigation to outside counsel. You would have to ask "do you deal with a lot of litigation, how often does outside counsel assist on litigation matters, ect..."


Cool, thanks the info! Will most lit people work for a judge after 1L?

cavalier1138
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:58 pm

carsondalywashere wrote:Cool, thanks the info! Will most lit people work for a judge after 1L?


People work everywhere after 1L. Interning for a judge actually seems like a bit of a backup plan for a lot of 1L summers, but it depends on the judge.

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Generally
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby Generally » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:42 pm

I know a guy at CNN who was top 5% after first semester, interviewed at a ton of places and barely got a 1L SA on his last callback. Not diverse. It's possible, but even when you are in what you think is a strong position for it, it seems to be a very uphill battle needing a lot of luck.

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UVA2B
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby UVA2B » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:44 pm

Generally wrote:I know a guy at CNN who was top 5% after first semester, interviewed at a ton of places and barely got a 1L SA on his last callback. Not diverse. It's possible, but even when you are in what you think is a strong position for it, it seems to be a very uphill battle needing a lot of luck.


I know what you meant now, but first time I read this I definitely started thinking through legal analysts on CNN.

ausimpv
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby ausimpv » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:04 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
ausimpv wrote:What I've learned is that people on this forum love giving drastic advice and convincing people they will fail, maybe because they did. OP, while you do need to be realistic, 1L SA's are mostly reserved for URMs. You also need decent grades first semester, like top 25%. I am a URM with a 1L SA getting paid the market rate of $180k and no I'm not at a T14. Yes, I got the only spot over the countless T14 individuals who applied. No, I did not know anyone in the firm. What got me the job was interviewing skills and following up, and professionalism. Or maybe it was luck, idk. So there's nothing wrong with having big law as your goal. But just be realistic and don't get hung up on having it your first summer.. second summer is the one that matters anyway. Good luck.


If you'd bothered to read the thread, you would have noticed that literally everyone mentioned that diversity hires are possible from anywhere. The OP is not a URM, so this kind of go-get-'em-tiger bullshit is just pointless.

No one is giving "drastic" advice. Everyone in this thread has correctly identified the chances of getting biglaw from W&M, and no one has claimed that failure is guaranteed. The point is that going to a school with a specific goal when that school gives you very low chances at achieving that goal is a dumb risk to take.


I said some people can't help giving drastic advice, which is certainly true of this board of individuals. If you felt like it didn't apply to you then move along. Simple. You sound a bit too offended for a post that was not directed towards you. Calm down.

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barkschool
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby barkschool » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:12 pm

ausimpv wrote:1L SA's are mostly reserved for URMs.


yeah

ausimpv wrote:What got me the job was interviewing skills and following up, and professionalism. Or maybe it was luck, idk..


oh

AspiringAspirant
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby AspiringAspirant » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:40 pm

ausimpv wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
ausimpv wrote:What I've learned is that people on this forum love giving drastic advice and convincing people they will fail, maybe because they did. OP, while you do need to be realistic, 1L SA's are mostly reserved for URMs. You also need decent grades first semester, like top 25%. I am a URM with a 1L SA getting paid the market rate of $180k and no I'm not at a T14. Yes, I got the only spot over the countless T14 individuals who applied. No, I did not know anyone in the firm. What got me the job was interviewing skills and following up, and professionalism. Or maybe it was luck, idk. So there's nothing wrong with having big law as your goal. But just be realistic and don't get hung up on having it your first summer.. second summer is the one that matters anyway. Good luck.


If you'd bothered to read the thread, you would have noticed that literally everyone mentioned that diversity hires are possible from anywhere. The OP is not a URM, so this kind of go-get-'em-tiger bullshit is just pointless.

No one is giving "drastic" advice. Everyone in this thread has correctly identified the chances of getting biglaw from W&M, and no one has claimed that failure is guaranteed. The point is that going to a school with a specific goal when that school gives you very low chances at achieving that goal is a dumb risk to take.


I said some people can't help giving drastic advice, which is certainly true of this board of individuals. If you felt like it didn't apply to you then move along. Simple. You sound a bit too offended for a post that was not directed towards you. Calm down.


It was pretty clear from your original post that you were referencing the posters in this thread, like cavalier, that were telling OP it was likely he wouldn't achieve his goals at W&M. I think they call it "subtweeting" in the twitterverse. In any event, you look disingenuous acting like that wasn't what you were doing .

gbullock19
Posts: 53
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby gbullock19 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:32 am

I noticed that it's always the same two or three people who reply to these kind of threads. OP, just know your goals may change, I know mine did. I'm on a full scholarship to a historically black law school (granted it's the highest ranked of all HBCUs) that isn't high ranked on the USNWR rankings but consistently gets people big law jobs, international jobs, and even big gov't jobs that are six-figure salaries. I'm a current 1L and I'm taking advantage of all my resources. Work hard, keep your head down and you'll do fine. My roommate who is a 3L is about to secure a job in mid-law making 135k/year and she's only top 30%. You can be the exception if you work hard. :wink:

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:03 am

It's great things are turning out well for your roommate, but keep in mind your school/situation is completely different from the OP's.

cavalier1138
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:37 am

gbullock19 wrote:I noticed that it's always the same two or three people who reply to these kind of threads. OP, just know your goals may change, I know mine did. I'm on a full scholarship to a historically black law school (granted it's the highest ranked of all HBCUs) that isn't high ranked on the USNWR rankings but consistently gets people big law jobs, international jobs, and even big gov't jobs that are six-figure salaries. I'm a current 1L and I'm taking advantage of all my resources. Work hard, keep your head down and you'll do fine. My roommate who is a 3L is about to secure a job in mid-law making 135k/year and she's only top 30%. You can be the exception if you work hard. :wink:


So, a few things...

1. Congrats to your roommate.
2. Are you saying that 50% of your classmates don't work hard?
3. Of the people who are employed as lawyers after graduation, Howard does have a disproportionately high number of students going to big firms, especially compared to other schools with similar overall stats. But that doesn't change the outcome for the rest of the class.
4. What federal government job starts you with a six-figure salary?
5. Is the OP going to a HBCU? What are the employment stats at W&M?

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TheBlueDevil
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby TheBlueDevil » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:44 pm

UVA2B wrote:mass mailing your non-major market where you have significant ties


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how does this work in practice? If you're a 1L at a T13 with strong ties to a secondary market and you want a 1L SA, what do you do?

Some of the big firms I've looked at have diversity or IP programs for 1Ls, but most don't seem to have any program set aside for 1Ls. Obviously, if you have a diverse or IP-appropriate background, it makes sense to apply to those programs. But what if you don't? Can you still apply to those firms? And even if you do, what about those firms that don't seem to have 1L programs at all?

If you can apply, how does the process compare to regular mass mailing (as is described here: viewtopic.php?t=195818)? That is, if there's no particular program for you to apply to, do you just blast your resume & cover letter (or cover email?) to the hiring managers?

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Nagster5
Posts: 636
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Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby Nagster5 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:02 am

TheBlueDevil wrote:
UVA2B wrote:mass mailing your non-major market where you have significant ties


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how does this work in practice? If you're a 1L at a T13 with strong ties to a secondary market and you want a 1L SA, what do you do?

Some of the big firms I've looked at have diversity or IP programs for 1Ls, but most don't seem to have any program set aside for 1Ls. Obviously, if you have a diverse or IP-appropriate background, it makes sense to apply to those programs. But what if you don't? Can you still apply to those firms? And even if you do, what about those firms that don't seem to have 1L programs at all?

If you can apply, how does the process compare to regular mass mailing (as is described here: viewtopic.php?t=195818)? That is, if there's no particular program for you to apply to, do you just blast your resume & cover letter (or cover email?) to the hiring managers?


Yes. Most firms have a recruiting contact email on their website, nalp, etc. Find it and send a resume/CL. If they don't have it listed on their website, you can always call reception and ask for the appropriate recruiting email. A lot of them will respond and say they don't have 1L positions, but such is mass mailing.

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TheBlueDevil
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:00 pm

Re: Steps to 1L SA

Postby TheBlueDevil » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:34 am

Nagster5 wrote:
TheBlueDevil wrote:
UVA2B wrote:mass mailing your non-major market where you have significant ties


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how does this work in practice? If you're a 1L at a T13 with strong ties to a secondary market and you want a 1L SA, what do you do?

Some of the big firms I've looked at have diversity or IP programs for 1Ls, but most don't seem to have any program set aside for 1Ls. Obviously, if you have a diverse or IP-appropriate background, it makes sense to apply to those programs. But what if you don't? Can you still apply to those firms? And even if you do, what about those firms that don't seem to have 1L programs at all?

If you can apply, how does the process compare to regular mass mailing (as is described here: viewtopic.php?t=195818)? That is, if there's no particular program for you to apply to, do you just blast your resume & cover letter (or cover email?) to the hiring managers?


Yes. Most firms have a recruiting contact email on their website, nalp, etc. Find it and send a resume/CL. If they don't have it listed on their website, you can always call reception and ask for the appropriate recruiting email. A lot of them will respond and say they don't have 1L positions, but such is mass mailing.


I see, thank you for your help!




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