Help! Law Firm Fit!

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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quiver
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby quiver » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:37 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Apparently Jenner & Block DC is a favorite among Yale students. They had like 6 summers from Yale or something out of a 11 summer class, and the others were from Harvard and Stanford only.

Definitely interview at Williams & Connolly and look for things like closed doors/empty offices. Some firms you interview at will have mostly closed doors--others will have mostly open doors.

I know Sidley DC has a good appellate practice, but I have no idea about how social their DC office is.


Thank you! Are these firms going to require all H's because I'm trying to have fun.....
If you want to do high-level appellate work in DC, you should probably put in some effort (read: you'll likely need an appellate clerkship).

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Roy McAvoy
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Roy McAvoy » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:41 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Apparently Jenner & Block DC is a favorite among Yale students. They had like 6 summers from Yale or something out of a 11 summer class, and the others were from Harvard and Stanford only.

Definitely interview at Williams & Connolly and look for things like closed doors/empty offices. Some firms you interview at will have mostly closed doors--others will have mostly open doors.

I know Sidley DC has a good appellate practice, but I have no idea about how social their DC office is.


Thank you! Are these firms going to require all H's because I'm trying to have fun.....


I thought you didn't want to participate in social events

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:54 pm

quiver wrote:
Texas2Step wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Apparently Jenner & Block DC is a favorite among Yale students. They had like 6 summers from Yale or something out of a 11 summer class, and the others were from Harvard and Stanford only.

Definitely interview at Williams & Connolly and look for things like closed doors/empty offices. Some firms you interview at will have mostly closed doors--others will have mostly open doors.

I know Sidley DC has a good appellate practice, but I have no idea about how social their DC office is.


Thank you! Are these firms going to require all H's because I'm trying to have fun.....
If you want to do high-level appellate work in DC, you should probably put in some effort (read: you'll likely need an appellate clerkship).


Oh, I am just assuming that at some point I will get a 'P' - I just hope it does not kill my chances for at least two clerkships...

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:55 pm

Roy McAvoy wrote:
Texas2Step wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Apparently Jenner & Block DC is a favorite among Yale students. They had like 6 summers from Yale or something out of a 11 summer class, and the others were from Harvard and Stanford only.

Definitely interview at Williams & Connolly and look for things like closed doors/empty offices. Some firms you interview at will have mostly closed doors--others will have mostly open doors.

I know Sidley DC has a good appellate practice, but I have no idea about how social their DC office is.


Thank you! Are these firms going to require all H's because I'm trying to have fun.....


I thought you didn't want to participate in social events


Sorry, by fun I meant participation in off-campus moot courts....definitely not the life of the party...

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:38 pm

Isn't it possible to get feeder clerkship offers before you get spring grades? And fall Yale grades are pure P/F right.

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:43 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:Isn't it possible to get feeder clerkship offers before you get spring grades? And fall Yale grades are pure P/F right.


Yep. Fall grades are P/F. I'm just gunning for two CoA clerkships - they do not have to be feeders. Plus I'm K-JD so getting a feeder is going to be rougher. All my Spring classes will have papers not exams and there will be one clinic - hopefully I do not screw that up...

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cron1834
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby cron1834 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:01 pm

Two pages so far on the best place to be a professional autist, pretty impressive.

In your case, clearly you should just pick the most prestigious place possible... given your weird humblebrag about Yale, your insistence on a graduate degree from Oxford despite zero utility in the US legal market, your talk of multiple COAs for no obvious reason, etc., I kinda feel that's what this is coming down to anyway.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:03 pm

OP, have you started law school yet?

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BulletTooth
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby BulletTooth » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:15 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Texas2Step wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:I'd narrowly tailor your search to the V28-34.



Why so specific?


It's because breaking down by vault ranking is at best a rough proxy for looking at the firms you should target. One of the most elite boutiques in the country just fell out of the V100 (Keker SF) this year. The rankings won't be at all informative for the type of jobs you're looking for (introverted work scene or robust appellate practice). For instance, Jones Day DC or Mayer Brown DC have really impressive appellate practices, but where they fall on the Vault rankings has comparatively little to do with that.

ETA: if not already clear, race was making fun of the random V## thing


That makes sense. I have Cleary (DC), Wilmer (DC), and Baker Botts. Does anyone have any thoughts on Debevoise, Cravath, S&C, or Quinn Emmanuel (NYC)?


I think Cleary DC fits what you are looking for. My impression was that there is minimal facetime required and not a ton of pressure to attend office functions. Cravath is going to be hit or miss based on the partner system--some partners will want tons of facetime and others don't care.

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:17 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:OP, have you started law school yet?


Yes, and no. I am about to go to YLS. But took ~20 law school classes in undergrad...

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:18 pm

BulletTooth wrote:
Texas2Step wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Texas2Step wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:I'd narrowly tailor your search to the V28-34.



Why so specific?


It's because breaking down by vault ranking is at best a rough proxy for looking at the firms you should target. One of the most elite boutiques in the country just fell out of the V100 (Keker SF) this year. The rankings won't be at all informative for the type of jobs you're looking for (introverted work scene or robust appellate practice). For instance, Jones Day DC or Mayer Brown DC have really impressive appellate practices, but where they fall on the Vault rankings has comparatively little to do with that.

ETA: if not already clear, race was making fun of the random V## thing


That makes sense. I have Cleary (DC), Wilmer (DC), and Baker Botts. Does anyone have any thoughts on Debevoise, Cravath, S&C, or Quinn Emmanuel (NYC)?


I think Cleary DC fits what you are looking for. My impression was that there is minimal facetime required and not a ton of pressure to attend office functions. Cravath is going to be hit or miss based on the partner system--some partners will want tons of facetime and others don't care.


Thank you! I will place a bid there for OCI!

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:19 pm

cron1834 wrote:Two pages so far on the best place to be a professional autist, pretty impressive.

In your case, clearly you should just pick the most prestigious place possible... given your weird humblebrag about Yale, your insistence on a graduate degree from Oxford despite zero utility in the US legal market, your talk of multiple COAs for no obvious reason, etc., I kinda feel that's what this is coming down to anyway.


You know, I recognize my goals and path may be unconventional but there is no need to be snarky. I may be reading you incorrectly but we all are here trying to get sound advice.

RaceJudicata
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby RaceJudicata » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:22 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:OP, have you started law school yet?


Yes, and no. I am about to go to YLS. But took ~20 law school classes in undergrad...


Not "yes, and no." The answer to the question is a resounding no.

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rpupkin
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby rpupkin » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:25 pm

I can already tell you're going to have a hard time in big law. There's a stereotype of "YLS grad who doesn't want to be in big law but does it anyway to pay off loans and spends all their time dreaming about being a law professor instead of working." You fit it to a T.

Despite that stereotype (which, frankly, is not all that unfair), firms still hire introverted YLS grads. Plenty of firms will want to hire you. I'd just apply broadly to firms with strong lit practices. Get a sense of office culture when you do your callbacks and callback lunches. Also, talk to YLS 3Ls and recent grads who have gone the big law route. If you find a firm where a bunch of the associates seem like you, go there.

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Roy McAvoy
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Roy McAvoy » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:28 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:OP, have you started law school yet?


Yes, and no. I am about to go to YLS. But took ~20 law school classes in undergrad...



No.

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:28 pm

RaceJudicata wrote:
Texas2Step wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:OP, have you started law school yet?


Yes, and no. I am about to go to YLS. But took ~20 law school classes in undergrad...


Not "yes, and no." The answer to the question is a resounding no.


If you interpret the question strictly maybe. But, he was probably asking the question as a proxy for assessing my familiarity with the profession. I'm working as an SA right now and have more law school classes on my transcript that most 1Ls. Why the hell can't I ask a question about law firm culture - especially when I only get 2 chances to find the right place and other 0Ls don't even know firm names?

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rpupkin
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby rpupkin » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:29 pm

quiver wrote:If you want to do high-level appellate work in DC, you should probably put in some effort (read: you'll likely need an appellate a SCOTUS clerkship).

It's very difficult to do only high-level appellate work as an associate in big law, even if you're coming off of a decent COA clerkship. These firms make their money off of trial-level litigation. I've had so many friends who were hired into the "appellate lit group" but who spend over half their time doing the same boring trial-level litigation tasks (discovery, evidentiary motions, etc.) that all associates do.

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quiver
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby quiver » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:30 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
cron1834 wrote:Two pages so far on the best place to be a professional autist, pretty impressive.

In your case, clearly you should just pick the most prestigious place possible... given your weird humblebrag about Yale, your insistence on a graduate degree from Oxford despite zero utility in the US legal market, your talk of multiple COAs for no obvious reason, etc., I kinda feel that's what this is coming down to anyway.


You know, I recognize my goals and path may be unconventional but there is no need to be snarky. I may be reading you incorrectly but we all are here trying to get sound advice.

I mean, cron was fairly abrasive about it, but his point stands. Why do you want to do 2 COA clerkships? For that matter, why do you want to do appellate law at all? Do you know what it entails? Given some of your statements ITT, it's not unreasonable to draw the conclusion that you're just looking to practice at the most prestigious firm and in the most prestigious area of law, apparently without ever having to see anyone.

Also, what rpupkin said.

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:31 pm

rpupkin wrote:
quiver wrote:If you want to do high-level appellate work in DC, you should probably put in some effort (read: you'll likely need an appellate a SCOTUS clerkship).

It's very difficult to do only high-level appellate work as an associate in big law, even if you're coming off of a decent COA clerkship. These firms make their money off of trial-level litigation. I've had so many friends who were hired into the "appellate lit group" but who spend over half their time doing the same boring trial-level litigation tasks (discovery, evidentiary motions, etc.) that all associates do.


Is Pro-Bono or Government the way to go then? I have been thinking about DOJ Civil Appellate or the Texas OSG.

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rpupkin
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby rpupkin » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:34 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
quiver wrote:If you want to do high-level appellate work in DC, you should probably put in some effort (read: you'll likely need an appellate a SCOTUS clerkship).

It's very difficult to do only high-level appellate work as an associate in big law, even if you're coming off of a decent COA clerkship. These firms make their money off of trial-level litigation. I've had so many friends who were hired into the "appellate lit group" but who spend over half their time doing the same boring trial-level litigation tasks (discovery, evidentiary motions, etc.) that all associates do.


Is Pro-Bono or Government the way to go then? I have been thinking about DOJ Civil Appellate or the Texas OSG.

Not sure what you mean by "pro-bono" in this context. But as for government work: yes, getting hired by an appellate division of a government agency is a good way to ensure that you'll do only appellate work as a junior attorney.

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KissMyAxe
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby KissMyAxe » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:34 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:OP, have you started law school yet?


Yes, and no. I am about to go to YLS. But took ~20 law school classes in undergrad...


So the answer is no. Those don't count for anything. Counting your chickens pretty early, aren't you? You're an introverted misanthrope who wants an appellate boutique and two COA judges, and you're a 0L. Seems legit. Why don't you get here, see how you do next year (quick warning, there are no grades first semester, but for judges, there really are). If you want a top clerkship you need to be acing your courses. This is like a kid in high school coming on here asking what he needs to do to get into YLS. It sounds like you know nothing about appellate practice. You fit an all too common mold at YLS. You're a high achieving kid whose always chasing the next gold star. Youll be happier if you stop chasing prestige for prestige's sake. Ask this question next year. Or at least ask me in a PM so we don't clutter the site.
Last edited by KissMyAxe on Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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UVA2B
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby UVA2B » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:35 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Texas2Step wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:OP, have you started law school yet?


Yes, and no. I am about to go to YLS. But took ~20 law school classes in undergrad...


Not "yes, and no." The answer to the question is a resounding no.


If you interpret the question strictly maybe. But, he was probably asking the question as a proxy for assessing my familiarity with the profession. I'm working as an SA right now and have more law school classes on my transcript that most 1Ls. Why the hell can't I ask a question about law firm culture - especially when I only get 2 chances to find the right place and other 0Ls don't even know firm names?


What? How do you have 20 credits from another law school during UG that Yale is taking you as a 0L? Those credits can't be transferrable, right? How are you working as an SA when you haven't completed 1L year? Is this some really small firm that doesn't care that you haven't taken any of the necessary 1L doctrinal courses?

Everything you've said so far just seems a little off, and it's starting to really stink.

Texas2Step
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby Texas2Step » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:36 pm

quiver wrote:
Texas2Step wrote:
cron1834 wrote:Two pages so far on the best place to be a professional autist, pretty impressive.

In your case, clearly you should just pick the most prestigious place possible... given your weird humblebrag about Yale, your insistence on a graduate degree from Oxford despite zero utility in the US legal market, your talk of multiple COAs for no obvious reason, etc., I kinda feel that's what this is coming down to anyway.


You know, I recognize my goals and path may be unconventional but there is no need to be snarky. I may be reading you incorrectly but we all are here trying to get sound advice.

I mean, cron was fairly abrasive about it, but his point stands. Why do you want to do 2 COA clerkships? For that matter, why do you want to do appellate law at all? Do you know what it entails? Given some of your statements ITT, it's not unreasonable to draw the conclusion that you're just looking to practice at the most prestigious firm and in the most prestigious area of law, apparently without ever having to see anyone.

Also, what rpupkin said.


Well, I have seen and spoken with lawyers in other practice areas and appellate seemed like the best fit. Plus, I have been described as intense, nerdy, and I love writing, thinking, and speaking (occasionally). Appellate seemed like a natural fit. In any event, I have about ~10 moot courts scheduled for 1L year and 7 pro bono groups so this train is about to leave the station. Finally, I was tentative about the 2 CoA clerkships - my advisor told me it would make more sense to do one at the district level and then clerk for a CoA.

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rpupkin
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby rpupkin » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:40 pm

Texas2Step wrote:In any event, I have about ~10 moot courts scheduled for 1L year and 7 pro bono groups so this train is about to leave the station. Finally, I was tentative about the 2 CoA clerkships - my advisor told me it would make more sense to do one at the district level and then clerk for a CoA.

I have no idea what the bolded is about. Are you sure you're talking about law school?

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star fox
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Re: Help! Law Firm Fit!

Postby star fox » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:40 pm

Texas2Step wrote:
blueapple wrote:I have no advice but you can just say you go to Yale.


I was trying not to be a D-bag about it - there are other schools out there that provide a good if not better legal education....

^ lol is this guy for real?




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