Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

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grades??
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby grades?? » Thu May 18, 2017 12:27 pm

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:this is devastating for UCI law (and totally expected)

there's no other way to spin it


You're right. My understanding from reading a few online articles is that Cathrine Fisk, who is well known in the employment sector, is also planning to leave UCI for Boalt. If true, that's two really good gains for Boalt and two big losses for UCI. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boalt go T7 in the next round of rankings and UCI to fall out of T30.


There is no way Boalt goes to t7. They have some of the lowest employment scores in the t13 and there has been a massive firesale recently with their professors. A LOT of professors have been active on the hiring market either trying to leave or actually leaving. This is especially enhanced by the fact that Boalt and UC Berk generally are getting their budgets absolutely crushed, not enough money coming in to pay for professors, and much more. The UC deficit right now is brutal and no sign of abating. So no, Berk will stay around the 11-13 for the conceivable future.

LurkerTurnedMember
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Thu May 18, 2017 12:32 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:this is devastating for UCI law (and totally expected)

there's no other way to spin it


You're right. My understanding from reading a few online articles is that Cathrine Fisk, who is well known in the employment sector, is also planning to leave UCI for Boalt. If true, that's two really good gains for Boalt and two big losses for UCI. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boalt go T7 in the next round of rankings and UCI to fall out of T30.


Yeah. That's the important point, impact on students and other faculty. The commercial US news magazine rankings aren't relevant. I don't know why that would matter. On the margins it matters more for a relatively new school but even there I'm doubtful. The connections and energy were important--Chemerinsky was deeply involved in student affairs and was successful at attracting other notable scholars to the school--and that will not last without him unless someone equally substantial took the role.


Agree. And just to clarify, I added the rankings because of the recent 4-position drop by Boalt. The interim dean at Boalt I think mentioned it was because of the bad rep the former dean gave the school with the sexual harassment stuff. And reputation is a part of the ranking methodology. So I was thinking Chem is going to also boost the rep and Boalt's ranking. Also, Fisk is his wife I think.

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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Thu May 18, 2017 12:42 pm

grades?? wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:this is devastating for UCI law (and totally expected)

there's no other way to spin it


You're right. My understanding from reading a few online articles is that Cathrine Fisk, who is well known in the employment sector, is also planning to leave UCI for Boalt. If true, that's two really good gains for Boalt and two big losses for UCI. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boalt go T7 in the next round of rankings and UCI to fall out of T30.


There is no way Boalt goes to t7. They have some of the lowest employment scores in the t13 and there has been a massive firesale recently with their professors. A LOT of professors have been active on the hiring market either trying to leave or actually leaving. This is especially enhanced by the fact that Boalt and UC Berk generally are getting their budgets absolutely crushed, not enough money coming in to pay for professors, and much more. The UC deficit right now is brutal and no sign of abating. So no, Berk will stay around the 11-13 for the conceivable future.


Are you saying their profs leaving will increase the prof to student ratio and hurt them i rankings that way? Or what? Cause "highest paid profs" or "most popular profs" isn't part of the methodology.

grades??
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby grades?? » Thu May 18, 2017 12:47 pm

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
grades?? wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:this is devastating for UCI law (and totally expected)

there's no other way to spin it


You're right. My understanding from reading a few online articles is that Cathrine Fisk, who is well known in the employment sector, is also planning to leave UCI for Boalt. If true, that's two really good gains for Boalt and two big losses for UCI. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boalt go T7 in the next round of rankings and UCI to fall out of T30.


There is no way Boalt goes to t7. They have some of the lowest employment scores in the t13 and there has been a massive firesale recently with their professors. A LOT of professors have been active on the hiring market either trying to leave or actually leaving. This is especially enhanced by the fact that Boalt and UC Berk generally are getting their budgets absolutely crushed, not enough money coming in to pay for professors, and much more. The UC deficit right now is brutal and no sign of abating. So no, Berk will stay around the 11-13 for the conceivable future.


Are you saying their profs leaving will increase the prof to student ratio and hurt them i rankings that way? Or what? Cause "highest paid profs" or "most popular profs" isn't part of the methodology.


I mean professors leaving hurts the reputation, which is part of the methodology, it can drop the student:professor ratio, etc.

LurkerTurnedMember
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Thu May 18, 2017 12:50 pm

grades?? wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
grades?? wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:this is devastating for UCI law (and totally expected)

there's no other way to spin it


You're right. My understanding from reading a few online articles is that Cathrine Fisk, who is well known in the employment sector, is also planning to leave UCI for Boalt. If true, that's two really good gains for Boalt and two big losses for UCI. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boalt go T7 in the next round of rankings and UCI to fall out of T30.


There is no way Boalt goes to t7. They have some of the lowest employment scores in the t13 and there has been a massive firesale recently with their professors. A LOT of professors have been active on the hiring market either trying to leave or actually leaving. This is especially enhanced by the fact that Boalt and UC Berk generally are getting their budgets absolutely crushed, not enough money coming in to pay for professors, and much more. The UC deficit right now is brutal and no sign of abating. So no, Berk will stay around the 11-13 for the conceivable future.


Are you saying their profs leaving will increase the prof to student ratio and hurt them i rankings that way? Or what? Cause "highest paid profs" or "most popular profs" isn't part of the methodology.


I mean professors leaving hurts the reputation, which is part of the methodology, it can drop the student:professor ratio, etc.


Which professors are leaving or looking to leave? And are those profs leaving out of the ordinary rate of profs who leave? I just did a quick search and couldn't find anything on it. A source would be great. Thanks.

cavalier1138
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu May 18, 2017 1:47 pm

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:If a call to chambers has that much sway in the hiring process then the whole process is f'd up. I'm not disagreeing with people here, just tired of the gamesmanship.


I mean, sure. It's kind of unfair. But how else are you going to differentiate between two students at the top of their respective classes with pretty much identical resumes?

It's the same as any other job where they have a surplus of qualified applicants.

para219
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby para219 » Thu May 18, 2017 3:25 pm

I'm curious to know the reactions of current UCI students and alumni. Has the school said anything to "reassure" the student body?

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Davis' Webb
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby Davis' Webb » Thu May 18, 2017 4:22 pm

Current Boaltie here. When Dean C gave a presentation to the UCB community, he mentioned this was year 9 of his 10-year contract with Irvine, and when he started at Irvine he made it clear he intended to leave the school following the contract's expiration to allow for the next Dean to move the school beyond his starting. He didn't quite finish it, but he did make it known that he wouldn't be at Irvine beyond next year because he felt it was important for someone with fresh eyes to take over at that point. He signed a 5-year contract with Boalt; we'll see if he finishes it.

So yeah, it definitely sucks for Irvine students, but he hardly blindsided the administration.

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it's allgood
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby it's allgood » Thu May 18, 2017 5:00 pm

para219 wrote:I'm curious to know the reactions of current UCI students and alumni. Has the school said anything to "reassure" the student body?


I find the current high caliber of faculty, staff, and students to already be reassuring enough!!!

lolwat
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby lolwat » Thu May 18, 2017 5:29 pm

This sucks hard for UCI and Orange County. Chemerinsky was one of the few people down there with huge national pull.

This definitely affects clerkship placement to some degree

I think UCI will be fine unless there are other defections; their professors are generally of the quality that you would expect to see at a good school

I don't necessarily agree that UCI was an unnecessary law school. I would agree if it had bar exam results and placement numbers like the other schools in Orange County (one of which closed down recently). If you're looking at California broadly, sure, maybe the state didn't need another law school. But it's not all that simple. California is a big state, and my sense is that OC does not really want to be a secondary market and welcomed not having to compete with LA for all the UCLA/USC grads.

tinyvessels
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby tinyvessels » Fri May 19, 2017 3:17 am

I'm legitimately amazed at the people in this thread defending the creation of this law school. They opened up at the height of the legal market crash, and in a state that already had 19 accredited law schools, not to mention the dozens of unaccredited ones in the state. The only reason it ended being a 'respectable' law school pulling in alright employment and bar passage numbers was because of strings being pulled, in terms of offering big schollys to applicants with good numbers, and major behind the scenes backing from the UC system and Dean C.

Even if it worked out for the people that went to UCI Law, the creation of this law school basically helped fuck over the t3s and t4s struggling in the state, especially in the OC i.e. Whittier, who just pulled the rug out from under its current and former students by being the first law school to completely close.

Note, I'm not trying to say a school that underperforms like Whittier should still be running. But my point still stands.

I think their fed. clerkship numbers will def. go down, and so will employment numbers, hopefully not drastically for their students sake. They just don't have the alumni power and brand name yet for a school thats ranked in the 20-30s you would think would have. As someone from the state that talks to lawyers, a lot of boomers hiring at firms won't even know UCI has a law school.

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sublime
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby sublime » Fri May 19, 2017 10:45 am

tinyvessels wrote:I'm legitimately amazed at the people in this thread defending the creation of this law school. They opened up at the height of the legal market crash, and in a state that already had 19 accredited law schools, not to mention the dozens of unaccredited ones in the state. The only reason it ended being a 'respectable' law school pulling in alright employment and bar passage numbers was because of strings being pulled, in terms of offering big schollys to applicants with good numbers, and major behind the scenes backing from the UC system and Dean C.

Even if it worked out for the people that went to UCI Law, the creation of this law school basically helped fuck over the t3s and t4s struggling in the state, especially in the OC i.e. Whittier, who just pulled the rug out from under its current and former students by being the first law school to completely close.

Note, I'm not trying to say a school that underperforms like Whittier should still be running. But my point still stands.

I think their fed. clerkship numbers will def. go down, and so will employment numbers, hopefully not drastically for their students sake. They just don't have the alumni power and brand name yet for a school thats ranked in the 20-30s you would think would have. As someone from the state that talks to lawyers, a lot of boomers hiring at firms won't even know UCI has a law school.


I guess I'm saying at least they seemed to open it in the "right" way, rather than as a cash grab and fucking over students.

I feel bad for the Whittier kids but don't really care about them either.

Also, I get what you are saying but feel like alumni power is often flame, especially to the extent it's not just correlated to good schools.

Uci already having institutional credibility helps a ton, too.

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runinthefront
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby runinthefront » Fri May 19, 2017 10:56 am

sublime wrote:I guess I'm saying at least they seemed to open it in the "right" way, rather than as a cash grab and fucking over students.

I feel bad for the Whittier kids but don't really care about them either.

Also, I get what you are saying but feel like alumni power is often flame, especially to the extent it's not just correlated to good schools.

Uci already having institutional credibility helps a ton, too.

But it's well on its way to being a cash grab now though. At the end of the day, UCI was unnecessary and just added bodies to an already oversaturated market.

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sublime
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Re: Chemerinsky leaves Irvine for Berkeley

Postby sublime » Fri May 19, 2017 11:02 am

runinthefront wrote:
sublime wrote:I guess I'm saying at least they seemed to open it in the "right" way, rather than as a cash grab and fucking over students.

I feel bad for the Whittier kids but don't really care about them either.

Also, I get what you are saying but feel like alumni power is often flame, especially to the extent it's not just correlated to good schools.

Uci already having institutional credibility helps a ton, too.

But it's well on its way to being a cash grab now though. At the end of the day, UCI was unnecessary and just added bodies to an already oversaturated market.


Their 2015 class had 110 people in it. And as long as they are placing decently, I'm not sure how much of a responsibility, if any, they have to grads of other schools.

I also don't think it being a cash grab is a foregone conclusion.




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