Is music copyright a specialization?

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Clemenceau

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby Clemenceau » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:20 pm

Is this serious? I'm skeptical

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scalawag

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby scalawag » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:22 pm

I was referring to the lawyer who was against the cherry picked arguments.

What she did was incredibly egregious. I don't see how the opposing counsel allowed that to happen. I'm sure they had an expert but this is a big deal that this got through the system, and it's something I would never let happen, if I had tools at my disposal.

Surely this could have been addressed at the beginning before it was brought into court.

My question is are there jobs for music copyright attorneys. What schools would prepare me for this?

I think if you look at IP law you have to have a technical degree to do some of the computer science stuff. And I'm not comparing this to that but it would certainly help.

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:37 am

...are you sure that you aren't being a scatterbrained this day? You're not making a ton of sense here, and you can't focus on what people are saying.

You're talking about being a witness, not a lawyer. Lawyers are telling you what lawyers do and do not do, and you're totally blowing past that.

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:06 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Lawyers do not need to and should not be picking up a guitar and playing what is written.


I was really hoping that a lawyer has, in fact, played a guitar at trial. Google has left me disappointed.

Anyway...

scalawag wrote:I was referring to the lawyer who was against the cherry picked arguments.

What she did was incredibly egregious. I don't see how the opposing counsel allowed that to happen. I'm sure they had an expert but this is a big deal that this got through the system, and it's something I would never let happen, if I had tools at my disposal.

Surely this could have been addressed at the beginning before it was brought into court.

My question is are there jobs for music copyright attorneys. What schools would prepare me for this?

I think if you look at IP law you have to have a technical degree to do some of the computer science stuff. And I'm not comparing this to that but it would certainly help.


You clearly don't have a clue what the practice of law, let alone copyright law, looks like. You need to talk to an actual attorney in the field and accept that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Everyone posting on this thread is either in law school or a lawyer. Even those of us who know comparatively little about the actual practice of law know much, much more than you do.

If you were hearing these things from a lawyer sitting directly in front of you, would you be saying the same things in response?

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UVA2B

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby UVA2B » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:27 am

scalawag wrote:I was referring to the lawyer who was against the cherry picked arguments.

What she did was incredibly egregious. I don't see how the opposing counsel allowed that to happen. I'm sure they had an expert but this is a big deal that this got through the system, and it's something I would never let happen, if I had tools at my disposal.

Surely this could have been addressed at the beginning before it was brought into court.

My question is are there jobs for music copyright attorneys. What schools would prepare me for this?

I think if you look at IP law you have to have a technical degree to do some of the computer science stuff. And I'm not comparing this to that but it would certainly help.


A. Nony Mouse wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I think it still sounds like you want to be an expert witness, not an attorney

This exactly.
scalawag wrote:That analysis I was referring to would give me really complete comprehensive knowledge of cases decided.

Read the link below I'm not sure how this happened but I would never allow it to get to court. I just need to know whether or not there are jobs available to where if I work hard there is actually a market. I'm assuming most cases get settled.

But this is something that I wouldn't need case law to act on, the expert was deceptive and I'm capable of realizing this, and making sure that it is not brought before a court, or taken seriously in negotiations.

http://mcir.usc.edu/documents/musicologists%20brief.pdf

If it got to court I will file a motion for the evidence to be dismissed (if that's possible). But they're stepping in and that was some deceptive work done by an expert, I would cut that shit off in negotiations before it got to a partner's ear and if they said we'll see you in court I would make sure that was not brought into court.

This really isn't what lawyers do. If you're a lawyer you need to know the law. You don't need to know the music. You knowing/understanding the music isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference.

Also, FWIW: that's an amicus curiae brief. It's not really a pleading in the case, it's something that the court can read and consider whether it's worth anything or can choose to ignore. It's written by a lawyer (because you have to be a lawyer to file something in court), but it's based on all the input from the Ph.D. musicologists. If you want to be making arguments like those in this brief, you want to be a musicologist, not a lawyer. The lawyer is the conduit for those argument, they're not the source of the arguments.

tl;dr - what Zuck said.

Edit: understanding music generally is probably helpful. But there's no playing it on an instrument/internalizing it/doing the actual analysis of whether one song has ripped off another song.


What the hell is this? How was this explanation insufficient for OP? We're talking about an amicus brief here, not a pleading. There is no stopping an amicus brief from being filed with a court. How do you propose an attorney bar the court from considering an amicus brief? When you're talking about a controversial court case, there can be dozens of amicus briefs filed from a spectrum of lawyers in the industry, all of whom make separate, albeit usually related arguments. These arguments are for the court to consider when deciding how to approach the actual case at bar (where an attorney actually has control over whether evidence is heard or considered).

Look into speaking with an actual copyright attorney about your thoughts and opinions on the matter. And then realize finally that what you're talking about is being an opposing expert witness in a non-scientific specialty. And then you may realize that with something like the arts, there are plenty of valid expert opinions that may seem superficially egregious to you, but can be persuasive in a court of law.

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scalawag

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby scalawag » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:28 am

Thanks for the love.

Yes a guitar would help me understand a score, that is if there were no experts and I had to transcribe it. I can't just write it down on staff paper, I need an instrument.

This website has always given me a hard time, you guys busted my chops on some LSAT question but I broke 160 2 weeks later.

I emailed the creator of the website but this is my question

1. Is this an area of practice? I'm assuming I need to internalize the copyright cases - there aren't that many on the website. Yes I would probably play them on my guitar and make notation on a score. I would not expect an expert to be able to cite case law, if there is something that could be inserted relevantly and not stupidly. If they do this let me know but it sounds like it's a lawyer's job.

2. What schools should I look at for this.

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scalawag

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby scalawag » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:31 am

To answer your question - I want to learn the law, obviously (sounds so much easier than being a musicologist and I'm not knocking law school).

I just get the impression I should be aware of what the court decided, and know the music, in case it could be cited.

I wouldn't expect that to happen often, though.

No biglaw ambitions here, this is the only way I would want to get into that environment. Otherwise I'm going to be a solo practitioner.
Last edited by scalawag on Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:34 am

Okay OP:

1) no, what you're describing isn't a practice area
2) as with every specialization, go to the school with the best employment prospects that you can. The JD is a generalist's degree and you can prepare for any legal job from any law school.

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scalawag

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby scalawag » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:35 am

Thanks.

I'm not about to do something else just so I can do this once in a blue moon.

edit: thanks for the tip on the jd

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby Bubbles1012 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:17 pm

I am a 2l very interested in ip and summering at a firm in the Bay Area this coming summer who does mostly ip. I took all ip classes this year. Of course as a copyright lawyer you will need to know the cases and you will need to keep abreast of new cases in the field, as ip is constantly changing. Regurgitating cases however, is not helpful to any practice of law. Law is knowing the basic rules and concepts and applying them to the problem in front of you, whether that problem is a client coming in or a law school exam. I wouldn't waste your time learning cases now, I would focus on law school applications, specifically the lsat. Secondly, I do not think most copyright lawyers are musicians. You do not need to know how to play music to be a copyright lawyer, sure it can help, but you need to realize that it is a violation of the rules of evidence in basically every court for a lawyer to testify as a witness. As a lawyer you can't get up there and say I played this and transcribed it on my guitar and it's not the same. That is witness testimony. What you are describing is what an expert witness does. As for letting these cherry picked arguments reach the court, a lawyer has no ability to stop an amicus brief. He can object in court (and an amicus brief is not the other sides argument in court) but your honor this expert is wrong because I've done what he says he did and I came to different conclusions is not a valid objection. When it comes to experts you may object in regards to their credentials, methods, or applications if they are not kosher, but you cannot reject to their results. Instead you put on your own witness that has their own kosher credentials method and application and has reached what you believe is a correct result. Remember their are two sides to a story and a lawyer can't just keep the other side out of court if they don't agree. That's not how our legal system is designed.

Finally, yes their are jobs for copyright lawyers. Cases like this though are not the extent of what a copyright lawyer does. There are also disputes regarding duration, transfer of ownership, parodies and other derivative works, infringement that involves direct copying like file sharing and other types of electronic transmission like streaming, and so much more. You will work not just with music as a general copyright lawyer but also books, movies, plays, photography, and art. A lot of copyright lawyers also do other types of IP law (patent, trademark and dress, trade secret), and you don't need a science background to do patent litigation. You only need to pass the patent bar if you are going to do patent prosecution in front of the uspto.

What you are describing is a job but it is that of a musicologist or expert witness. I do not think playing the guitar and being able to read a score will be any real benefit to a copyright lawyer. It would be totally improper and objectionable for them to testify about that in court and they would need to find experts to do so regardless so it doesn't really matter whether or not they can. It doesn't sound like you want to be a lawyer, it sounds like you want to play your guitar and testify about it in court. If you do want to be a lawyer go to the best school you can get into/pay the least for in ny/sf/la since these are the hubs of ip and entertainment law.

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:42 pm

Are civil trials even a real thing? Like people file lawsuits and they go before a court and juries make judgments and stuff? I always thought that was flame invented by litigators to justify their existence.

Pretty sure that outside of maybe some crim stuff there isn't such a thing as a trial anyway so this is all moot.

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby Bubbles1012 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:59 pm

They exist. Although most things do settle. The blurred lines case (music copyright case op sounds like he would have loved to have been an expert witness in) went to trial and is being retried.

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:51 pm

Bubbles1012 wrote:They exist. Although most things do settle. The blurred lines case (music copyright case op sounds like he would have loved to have been an expert witness in) went to trial and is being retried.

The OP is NOT interested in doing this once in a blue moon though. Please answer his question!

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:56 pm

Bubbles1012 wrote:They exist. Although most things do settle. The blurred lines case (music copyright case op sounds like he would have loved to have been an expert witness in) went to trial and is being retried.

Music copyright law exists, but it doesn't entail doing what the OP wants to do.

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby snowball2 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:01 am

scalawag wrote:Working with experts would be great but if you can answer my question that would be awesome.

The amount of music theory required to do this job is fairly simple. She's isolating small parts of the melody that are out of context and don't reach the substantial similarity. She cherry picked things, and even if she kept the rhythms accurate the melodies are significantly different.

The only way I can see this happening is the lawyer did not understand any theory, he didn't pick up a guitar and play what was written and realize it was way off.


Dude, BOTH SIDES retain experts. If you are a defendant you generally receive the plaintiff's expert's report and review it with your expert who then has an opportunity to respond to it. The plaintiff has the burden of proof so they have a second shot to rebut the defendant's expert. The amicus brief you reference is of little value. It's presented by a non-party who has an interest in the issue, but no direct interest in the lawsuit. They are generally biased and are not given a lot of weight.

You don't need to have a deep knowledge of music to work in the field, just like you don't need to go to medical school to work in medical malpractice. Does musical knowledge help? Maybe, but a lawyer should never try to be a witness for their client.

There aren't a ton of lawyers working in this field. Most lawyers who do work in music copyright work in publishing or licensing (negotiating rights to use published music commercially), not especially sexy fields, and knowledge of music theory has zero value in that context.

Cases that make it to trial like the Blurred Lines or Stairway to Heaven suits are few and far between.

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby Bluem_11 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:21 am

The OP seems very optimistic/loosely based in reality, but I work in an IP boutique so can try to help.

We have lawyers who do copyright litigation. They do not ONLY do copyright litigation. Unless you get a gig in a big city where they need that specifically there isn't enough copyright work to pay the bills. Most of our litigators do a combination of copyright/trademark and a little patent litigation. Has there been an issue where copyright have come up in the form of artistic expression such as movies or music? Yes, I've even chipped in on a case or two, but the skills we've needed to bring to the table are those of a lawyer. Research & writing on legal issues, document reviews, motion practice.

Do not make law school your "I do not know what I want to do with my life" plan and try to squeeze a round peg into a square hole.

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future liT1g4tor

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby future liT1g4tor » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:08 pm

From being an artist, music producer, mixing/mastering and audio engineer, I have gained some knowledge regarding many aspects of the music industry. I have produced for some artists in the industry. IMO. Alot of the stuff regarding the legal aspect doesn't take a lawyer to do and the clients won't come because the majority of upcoming artists requiring such help won't have money for lawyers or not serious enough to hire one, since if they took their music serious they would know how to themselves.

As for the ones that really require it on a large scale will have tons of lawyers for all needs and you'll need to be established to even come close to one of these artists. In addition, the people that these big stars will have to do such work most likely wont be lawyers, but their management and/or other agents/executives that have to serve the desired role. The same people that publish their music will copyright it, it's really a simple task.

For example there are some websites that will even copyright the music for you, for free, if it is truly and wholly owned by you. On top of that, you can have BMI or another performing rights organization publish it for you. The Specialization you're describing is what an agent of a label, big or small, would do for his artists and producers on a weekly basis, every time they provide new works, and they'll need an PRO to help receive royalties for such works. Look up an across-the-board deal, most artists enter one so they'll never need a lawyer to copyright their music.

Also, the type of work you're referring to is done by performance rights organizations, such as ASCAP, BMI, etc. Perhaps maybe going in-house for one of these organizations will serve your interests, although I don't necessarily see you doing anything to different than you would at another in-house position. But I could be wrong, this is sone thing I will look into, it hasn't crossed my mind what an in-house attorney would do at such organizations.
Last edited by future liT1g4tor on Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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future liT1g4tor

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby future liT1g4tor » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:29 pm

What it sounds like you're describing you would like to be is a litigator in copyright infringement cases, which is somewhat different than IP/copyright law. If you want a job involving strictly copyright law, look into legal clearance for any big company in the industry, however, these are hard to come by. Also, if you want to litigate copyright infringements, and cases alike, you do realize the clientele that would really want to hire you and make it worth your while are going to be very successful musicians, artists & producers alike, who as mentioned previously, have many lawyers & non-lawyers for this type of stuff that they wouldn't even hire themselves. Since their music technically isn't theirs, it's the labels, or it's through their label which is a subsidiary of a larger label, they have positions for every aspect the label thrives on.

Maybe you can look into getting one of these positions, if that is what you are interested in. However, these positions would be easier to get by not going to Law School and going to Law School after you gained work experience in the field, which would either be through connections or being really good at something related to the industry + connections. As far as being some small producer that has no capital in the music industry and someone blatantly steals their music, most attorneys can get the job done to sue successfully, they don't need to specialize in "copyright law" that is of course if the music was copyrighted, if not, it will be very hard to prove.

I'll give you a list of jobs you may be interested in as an attorney, however, remember these jobs are hard to come by and you may have to settle for an internship, if that. To obtain one of these jobs is a different ball game that requires planning, capital, grit, and connections, and still, remember, the music industry is an industry full of broken promises.

Content Operations Manager, Legal Coordinator for say UMG. VP for legal affairs, Director of Digital Advocacy & Communications, Distribution & Administrative Services Analyst, Legal Clearance Counsel, IP policy administrator, Publishing operations coordinator, & director for business & legal affairs or an attorney for business & legal affairs.

This is theoretically at best, and you should not attend law school based off obtaining one of these jobs.

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smaug

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby smaug » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:39 pm

Odd shtick.

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby tomwatts » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:25 pm

future liT1g4tor wrote:Also, the type of work you're referring to is done by performance rights organizations, such as ASAP, BMW, etc.

Definitely lol-ed at these typos. (It's ASCAP and BMI.)

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future liT1g4tor

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby future liT1g4tor » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:25 pm

tomwatts wrote:
future liT1g4tor wrote:Also, the type of work you're referring to is done by performance rights organizations, such as ASAP, BMW, etc.

Definitely lol-ed at these typos. (It's ASCAP and BMI.)


LOL, my new stupid phone is tripping. It was doing that all over, changing words for words that don't even make sense or sometimes even exist. I had to go back and change like 10 words. But yeah, I said BMI prior to that auto-correct. ASCAP, BMI, SESAC (mostly for songwriters).

In addition, ASCAP & BMI are non-profits & provide the royalties for works provided to the respective owners of said works. SESAC on the other hand retains profit from royalties and is a bit more prestigious in regard to that one can't just create an account on BMI.com and set up a profile and they're good to go, it is invite only to a degree. Or you must apply and get accepted, kind of like a law school :D :lol:

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lacrossebrother

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby lacrossebrother » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:09 pm

I think the fact that a labor and employment attorney represented the Gaye's in the most significant music infringement case is telling enough.
https://www.kingballow.com/attorneys?vi ... =22&type=1
https://www.law360.com/articles/628694/ ... s-ip-fight

Although I guess this guy did the heavy lifting:
https://www.kingballow.com/attorneys?vi ... =28&type=1

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:46 pm

It really looks like OP just wants us to know he can play guitar and that his ability to do so somehow gives him an advantage over other music copyright attorneys who cannot play an instrument.

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scalawag

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby scalawag » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:07 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:It really looks like OP just wants us to know he can play guitar and that his ability to do so somehow gives him an advantage over other music copyright attorneys who cannot play an instrument.


You got it.

Jazz musicians are working theorists, I think I would be able to comprehend more technical aspects of music that come up. If I get into a law school with a music copyright class I will analyze the John William's ET score, maybe write analysis if that would be an assignment.

In music history I had to analyze a terribly complex Beethoven score - dude who wrote it was as smart as Justice Scalia or Justice Sotomayor. Jazz Studies had me taking 9 classes a semester I was teaching myself to read music on my instrument and learning jazz and classical music at the same time. My teacher became assistant dean so I changed majors and kind of got the college experience, but I plan to take counterpoint next fall.

I emailed Mr. Crohn and he initially said it sounded like I wanted to be a forensic musicologist. I considered his advice, and there were some parallels between me and the guy he sent in an article who did it (at least that we both spent a lot of time transcribing things) but he had done way more than me and it would be extremely difficult for me to become a forensic musicologist. I respect the fuck out of them though.

I don't quite understand the role of an attorney, but my understanding of music theory, and reading of a Texas Professor's "Would You Want William Hung as Your Trier of Fact" plays a huge role in why I want to do this.

Now I'm not advocating we should go to court, but with stare decisis music theory would fit in quite nicely. That was a journal article I read - Would You Want William Hung as your Trier of Fact. I agreed with almost everything the dude said - except one thing - he said courts should legislate how many notes must be taken for a melody to be plagiarized. Every melody is completely different - so every melody would have a different number of notes - yes there is confusion, however that confusion could be settled by people who are knowledgeable about music. Opinions do vary, but not as much as you would think. I think setting an arbitrary number for the number of notes would not truly determine copyright infringement. The guy who wrote it was passionate about the subject and sought out a lot of information to write his article.

Reading that journal article made me think I would love to be a music copyright attorney. I was riveted. I make very strong legal arguments (Justice Sotomayor is my role model) - I realized I'll never be as smart as she was when I read some of her opinions but I wrote a paper this year and after reading how hard she worked I'm inspired by her life experiences and wherever I go and whatever I specialize in I will work very hard in law school.

Anyways Mr. Crohn said just go to the highest ranked law school you get into. So what I will do is apply to a bunch of schools, and then probably shoot him an email and say these are the top ranked schools, would I have a shot at doing this or is it a pipe dream. And if he says school x would be a good school that would give me a decent shot I'm going for it. He did mention there would be other work and they work at small IP firms. I would be down doing that, as long as I got to do some music copyright once in a while. I would absolutely love to hash out the issues with musicologists and negotiate, even go to court if it came down to that. I would fucking love it.


And yes peanuts, not to brag, but all other things being equal I would beat an attorney with no musical background - you can take that to the bank.


futureliTigator - thank you for the recommendations. I'm interested in Business Law as well. But my strengths right now lie in my ability to make strong legal arguments (and when I spend a lot of time on it) crafting a brief that is written like an attorney. I say that not to brag, but because it's my strength and it's what I enjoy doing. I love spotting the issues, getting on an exercise bike, and writing jibberish on a note that turns into an argument. I love reading things and making strong arguments and so my question is would those jobs provide me an opportunity to do that?

And if they don't what will?

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Re: Is music copyright a specialization?

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:24 am

Oh my Zeus, he's back.

scalawag wrote:If I get into a law school with a music copyright class I will analyze the John William's ET score, maybe write analysis if that would be an assignment.


Just quoting this section for posterity.



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