COMMON 0L QUESTIONS books, study guides, E&Es, studying,etc Forum

[Nazrix]

I am also going to disagree with Nazrix's outline point. I almost always make my own outlines, and my best grades have resulted in the classes where I made my own outlines. I think taking shortcuts your first semester can be dangerous, and I would personally advise against it.

All I can say is I'm approx top 10% at a T20, never made a single outline, rarely study more than a week or two before the exam, I don't know what everyone else does with there times, but LS tests are written in one particular way, they are rarely surprises, everyone learns different, but, I would never wastes 1-3 weeks making an outline.... if you know 50% of the class backwards and forwards you can get the top grade, don't bother trying to learn half the nonsense, nobody else does, or they get overwhelmed, what can I say?

[Nazrix]

I disagree with the outline part. I read other student outlines for our classes and many of them had huge mistakes on them that would have been catastrophic to bring into an exam. You don't need Joe 1L's reading of the case, much less five Joe 1L's reading of the case. Hornbooks are good; the law reviews say that students who read them tend to score higher. Hypos and such are also good. There isn't apparently a massive difference between the different study methods, though; hornbook and practice exam students tend to do better, but there isn't any dominance by any one group of students.

Then stop getting outlines from local idiots and get them from the gets that AmJur the class like I do, I'm not saying get a piece of crap you find on some database, but get outlines that are clearly well written...also, if there is a "huge glaring error" you should honestly be able to spot it, because it won't make sense if you understand the big picture, usually.

[Nazrix]

I disagree with the outline part. I read other student outlines for our classes and many of them had huge mistakes on them that would have been catastrophic to bring into an exam. You don't need Joe 1L's reading of the case, much less five Joe 1L's reading of the case. Hornbooks are good; the law reviews say that students who read them tend to score higher. Hypos and such are also good. There isn't apparently a massive difference between the different study methods, though; hornbook and practice exam students tend to do better, but there isn't any dominance by any one group of students.

Then stop getting outlines from local idiots and get them from the gets that AmJur the class like I do, I'm not saying get a piece of crap you find on some database, but get outlines that are clearly well written...also, if there is a "huge glaring error" you should honestly be able to spot it, because it won't make sense if you understand the big picture, usually.

A hornbook is a recipe to failure vs. a concepts & insights, unless your prof really follows an nutshell approach...that said, i once took a Nutshell published in 1979 about international business transactions and copied verbatim from it on the exam, got an A+, the nutshell was written by the textbook author, the textbook was obviously then trying to make a nutshell from a textbook and was needlessly confusing.

[Nazrix]

the e&e for contracts (by blum) is a lifesaver

You are the first person, not just on this site, to ever say anything even mildly approving of the E&E for K. My professor said nasty things about Blum in a previous exam question.

The biggest problem with the K's E&E is that it isn't really worth the time when there are better supplements available (Chirelstein for an insightful reading of the key cases, Crunchtime for a straightforward review of the fundamentals with good practice questions). I wouldn't say that it's a major outlier in terms of its quality relative to that of other E&Es (especially if some of the non-1L ones are included). Based on my reading of ~1/3 of the book, I'd say Blum is too thorough on minor points that aren't that relevant (especially when he talks about dead issues from the past), but the questions were pretty helpful for a couple of the chapters.

I echo that, the point isn't that any of these supplements are overall WRONG, or out of date, they are just very very broad, and often spend a lot of time explaining a small issue, that might be perfect if you are confused on something you read in an outline, but as a holistic/main supplement they sure do take a ton of time to learn, use E&E's like a dictionary if you can, when you reach a tough concept, look it up in an E&E or wikipedia the concept to give you a base, then go to your outline from that prof to learn what his nuances in it are, then glance at some notes, or ask a classmate.. You can only fit so much in your brain so fast, consider my advice CRUNCHTIME strategies when you reach the last week or two and are like OMFG what do I do, what is consideration?? or a bilateral contract... remember when studying there are no DUMB questions... too often kids focus on the minute details, which can get you points, but the bigger points come when you see the major issues and how they link, it's rare in law school for profs to give you a great "overall," i can't tell you how many times I've left a class and been like, "what the hell is chapter 11 again?" or something super basic, don't get too lost.

[Nazrix]

the e&e for contracts (by blum) is a lifesaver

You are the first person, not just on this site, to ever say anything even mildly approving of the E&E for K. My professor said nasty things about Blum in a previous exam question.

E&Es can be too basic, or can obsess on the authors particular "example" of understanding thing, mostly first year classes are the worst, there are so many ways to teach a class like property or contracts, and so many things to focus on, beware of those on E&Es.

Take an outline and if you must read the E&E for the relevant parts, but remember, it's your prof grading...Also, profs often feel that ALL supplements are useless, surely you've had profs who say stuff like "the E&E isn't useful, but try this treatist, like whigmore on evidence (or whoever), but honestly you going to read a 10 Volume 5000 page treatise for a basic evidence course? these guys are often practicioners and hard core experts, they are out of touch)

[apper123]

I am also going to disagree with Nazrix's outline point. I almost always make my own outlines, and my best grades have resulted in the classes where I made my own outlines. I think taking shortcuts your first semester can be dangerous, and I would personally advise against it.

All I can say is I'm approx top 10% at a T20, never made a single outline, rarely study more than a week or two before the exam, I don't know what everyone else does with there times, but LS tests are written in one particular way, they are rarely surprises, everyone learns different, but, I would never wastes 1-3 weeks making an outline.... if you know 50% of the class backwards and forwards you can get the top grade, don't bother trying to learn half the nonsense, nobody else does, or they get overwhelmed, what can I say?

That's wonderful, but have you considered that others might simply not be as brilliant as you and need to do more work?

[lawisfun22]

Talking about supplements and stuff, if you don't do any of the reading or listen too much in class, what would you suggest for securities regulation, E&E or gilberts. I've had some success using gilberts for "secured transactions" the E&E seem like written textbooks in a way, way too much info, the gilberts are kind of just more fact based and just here if you dont know anything you will get a nice big picture broad understanding of the course without getting super specific. Opinions on which one you'd go with? Both are crazy amounts of pages for this course...like 600 something

[lawisfun22]

Anyone?

[JazzOne]

Anyone?

lol

Most TLSers who continue to post during law school probably read the material and listen in class.

[lawisfun22]

Okay fair enough, I guess I'll stick with gilberts

[holydonkey]

So much money for all this.

[cutiewiddlebebe]

Great thread!

However, I am still looking for a consensus on a good legal writing text that I can consult prior to beginning my first year, as I am a terrible writer. Thus far, I have seen the following mentioned with some frequency:

1. Volokh - Academic Legal Writing
2. Garner - The Element of Legal Style
3. Levi - An Introduction to Legal Reasoning
4. Ray & Ramsfield - Legal Writing: Getting it Right and Getting it Written
5. Neumann - Legal Reasoning and Legal Writing

Last, what is a good overview text on general logic and reasoning, logical fallacies, etc.? I really need to brush up on my skills.

Thank you!!

[samiseaborn]

Has anyone found a supplement that works well with the Merril and Smith Property book? Almost halfway into the semester and I couldn't tell you a damn thing about property at this point.

[ongsar]

tag

[mikeytwoshoes]

tag

I will assume SBL is not deleting tags because he is knee deep in pussy or some other reasonable explanation.

[Shaggier1]

Quick question for current students:

Is it common for 1L's to work as interns during the semester (s)? It seems like most clerkship require 2L status, at least... so that is out of the question, but are internships a viable alternative? Or is it best to just focus on your courseload during 1L?

Thanks!

[mikeytwoshoes]

Great thread!

However, I am still looking for a consensus on a good legal writing text that I can consult prior to beginning my first year, as I am a terrible writer. Thus far, I have seen the following mentioned with some frequency:

1. Volokh - Academic Legal Writing
2. Garner - The Element of Legal Style
3. Levi - An Introduction to Legal Reasoning
4. Ray & Ramsfield - Legal Writing: Getting it Right and Getting it Written
5. Neumann - Legal Reasoning and Legal Writing

Last, what is a good overview text on general logic and reasoning, logical fallacies, etc.? I really need to brush up on my skills.

Thank you!!

You want nothing to do with Volokh's book. That's about writing for law reviews. You can't use their style in 1L writing classes. The prof will force you to learn to write like a lawyer. Any knowledge you think you have will hinder your growth in this area. It will harm your confidence as a law student. Don't do it.

[Zara]

this looks useful. saving it for later

[mac.empress]

Great thread!

However, I am still looking for a consensus on a good legal writing text that I can consult prior to beginning my first year, as I am a terrible writer. Thus far, I have seen the following mentioned with some frequency:

1. Volokh - Academic Legal Writing
2. Garner - The Element of Legal Style
3. Levi - An Introduction to Legal Reasoning
4. Ray & Ramsfield - Legal Writing: Getting it Right and Getting it Written
5. Neumann - Legal Reasoning and Legal Writing

Last, what is a good overview text on general logic and reasoning, logical fallacies, etc.? I really need to brush up on my skills.

Thank you!!

You want nothing to do with Volokh's book. That's about writing for law reviews. You can't use their style in 1L writing classes. The prof will force you to learn to write like a lawyer. Any knowledge you think you have will hinder your growth in this area. It will harm your confidence as a law student. Don't do it.

I love Neumann!

[engineer]

Great thread!

However, I am still looking for a consensus on a good legal writing text that I can consult prior to beginning my first year, as I am a terrible writer. Thus far, I have seen the following mentioned with some frequency:

1. Volokh - Academic Legal Writing
2. Garner - The Element of Legal Style
3. Levi - An Introduction to Legal Reasoning
4. Ray & Ramsfield - Legal Writing: Getting it Right and Getting it Written
5. Neumann - Legal Reasoning and Legal Writing

Last, what is a good overview text on general logic and reasoning, logical fallacies, etc.? I really need to brush up on my skills.

Thank you!!

You want nothing to do with Volokh's book. That's about writing for law reviews. You can't use their style in 1L writing classes. The prof will force you to learn to write like a lawyer. Any knowledge you think you have will hinder your growth in this area. It will harm your confidence as a law student. Don't do it.

I disagree. I found a lot of what Volokh said in his book to be supremely useful for writing in general. The appendices, in which he offers alternatives for superfluous or redundant english phrases, was actually copied by my LRW prof and given to us (without attributing it to Volokh... I guess academic integrity isn't a two-way street!)

I would add "Writing to Win" (Steven Stark) to that list, and I'm awaiting on a couple others to arrive. I guess overnight shipping means something different to Amazon than it does to me.

[dakatz]

I feel like a douche asking this question, because I told myself I wouldn't waste my 0L summer, but if I were to pick up one or two E&E books over the summer months, is it important to get the newest edition? Or are they pretty much very similar?

[RVP11]

I feel like a douche asking this question, because I told myself I wouldn't waste my 0L summer, but if I were to pick up one or two E&E books over the summer months, is it important to get the newest edition? Or are they pretty much very similar?

Don't. Just don't.

[dakatz]

I feel like a douche asking this question, because I told myself I wouldn't waste my 0L summer, but if I were to pick up one or two E&E books over the summer months, is it important to get the newest edition? Or are they pretty much very similar?

Don't. Just don't.

To be honest, that's what I was hoping to hear. I think I'll spend more time planning a nice vacation instead

[cutiewiddlebebe]

I feel like a douche asking this question, because I told myself I wouldn't waste my 0L summer, but if I were to pick up one or two E&E books over the summer months, is it important to get the newest edition? Or are they pretty much very similar?

Don't. Just don't.

To be honest, that's what I was hoping to hear. I think I'll spend more time planning a nice vacation instead

Have a nice vacation, but know that you are in direct competition with people like me. Here is my OL reading list:

Have Read:
1. Getting to Maybe (x2)
2. Law School Insider
3. Law School Confidential (x2)
4. Elements of Style
5. A History of American Law
6. LEEWS
7. Learning Legal Reasoning
8. The Redbook: A Manual on Legal Style
9. The Elements of Legal Style

To Read:
1. Thinking Like a Lawyer: A New Introduction to Legal Reasoning
2. Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student
3. Legal Writing in Plain English: A Text With Exercises
4. Understanding Criminal Law
5. Constitutional Law: Principles And Policies
6. The Law of Torts: Examples & Explan​ations
7. Civil Procedure Examples & Explan​ations
8. Concepts And Case Analysis in the Law of Contracts
9. [Some book on property; to be determined]

[RVP11]

I feel like a douche asking this question, because I told myself I wouldn't waste my 0L summer, but if I were to pick up one or two E&E books over the summer months, is it important to get the newest edition? Or are they pretty much very similar?

Don't. Just don't.

To be honest, that's what I was hoping to hear. I think I'll spend more time planning a nice vacation instead

Have a nice vacation, but know that you are in direct competition with people like me. Here is my OL reading list:

Have Read:
1. Getting to Maybe (x2)
2. Law School Insider
3. Law School Confidential (x2)
4. Elements of Style
5. A History of American Law
6. LEEWS
7. Learning Legal Reasoning
8. The Redbook: A Manual on Legal Style
9. The Elements of Legal Style

To Read:
1. Thinking Like a Lawyer: A New Introduction to Legal Reasoning
2. Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student
3. Legal Writing in Plain English: A Text With Exercises
4. Understanding Criminal Law
5. Constitutional Law: Principles And Policies
6. The Law of Torts: Examples & Explan​ations
7. Civil Procedure Examples & Explan​ations
8. Concepts And Case Analysis in the Law of Contracts
9. [Some book on property; to be determined]

This should be banworthy.