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A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
vhopeful88

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Postby vhopeful88 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:46 pm

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:51 pm

It is not realistic. It is not a good idea to attend a school with the plan of transferring. The odds that you will do well enough at UNC as a 1L to transfer to the T14 is approximately 10-15% (because you will need grades in this range to transfer).

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby EncyclopediaOrange » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:51 pm

vhopeful88 wrote:Realistically, what are chances of transferring from UNC to a T14? 160 LSAT, was waitlisted at Columbia & Georgetown this cycle. I really want to be in biglaw, most likely in DC. I'd like to hear from people who have made a similar move or those who know more about what this process looks like and realistically what my shots are.


This is a bad idea.

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby vhopeful88 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:53 pm

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EncyclopediaOrange

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby EncyclopediaOrange » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:13 pm

vhopeful88 wrote:Can you please elaborate?


This:

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:It is not realistic. It is not a good idea to attend a school with the plan of transferring. The odds that you will do well enough at UNC as a 1L to transfer to the T14 is approximately 10-15% (because you will need grades in this range to transfer).


Even if your LSAT score were, say, a 174 (10 points higher than UNC's 75th percentile), there is just no guarantee that your aptitude for taking the LSAT would correlate with your actual law school performance. All, or nearly all, of your grades during your first year will be based on one 3-6 hour exam for each course at the end of each semester. So many different things could go wrong that cause you to do poorly. E.g. Having a cold, your computer dying, spending half of your allotted time on a red herring. Any one of these things happening during one of your exams could destroy any chance you have of transferring.

I'm not saying you can't work your ass off and crush it at UNC, even with an LSAT score that is below its median (which is relevant because you are going to be graded compared to every other one of your classmates who will primarily have better scores than a 160). I'm just saying the odds of doing so are very bad and very unpredictable. If you aren't ok with graduating from UNC, don't go there.

I think the credited TLS response is, "retake." Good luck!

Edits for clarity.
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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby barkschool » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:14 pm

Read the sticky

Retake the lsat

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby vhopeful88 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:36 am

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby grades?? » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:39 am

OP you are an idiot. Im at a t14. I crushed the LSAT- talking mid to high 170s. I got median-pwned. A lot of people have the same experience. If you can't take the time to master the lsat, you are gonna get crushed in law school and good luck getting a job in DC from UNC lulz.

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby vhopeful88 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:43 am

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lymenheimer

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby lymenheimer » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:44 am

vhopeful88 wrote:Let me be clear: I am seeking advice. Not to be called an idiot for asking. I can appreciate that you feel that my LSAT is too low, but I disagree that this test will be a reflection of my performance or my ability to attend a more competitive school. Thanks for your opinion.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=170597

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:46 am

The way to best position yourself to transfer is to get top grades. It's pretty straightforward. There is no magic advice to setting yourself apart.

Keep in mind that you will be graded on a curve where what you get will be determined as much by what your classmates do as by what you do, so you don't have the control over this that people often think they do. But there are lots of guides to getting good grades here. There are also already lots of threads about transferring and you can find more specific info by reading through the HYS transfer threads from the last few years.

Also, 0Ls are not allowed to post in the transfer forum so I've moved this.

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby grades?? » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:48 am

vhopeful88 wrote:
grades?? wrote:OP you are an idiot. Im at a t14. I crushed the LSAT- talking mid to high 170s. I got median-pwned. A lot of people have the same experience. If you can't take the time to master the lsat, you are gonna get crushed in law school and good luck getting a job in DC from UNC lulz.



Let me be clear: I am seeking advice. Not to be called an idiot for asking. I can appreciate that you feel that my LSAT is too low, but I disagree that this test will be a reflection of my performance or my ability to attend a more competitive school. Thanks for your opinion.



Okay here is the legitimate advice everyone will keep repeating: DO NOT GO TO A SCHOOL YOU WOULD NOT BE HAPPY GRADUATING AT MEDIAN FROM. What does median at UNC get you? Like a 50% chance of getting a legal job and about a <2% chance of biglaw in DC.

Will you be able to transfer? SURE, if you are in the top 10 or so kids at UNC. But you clearly aren't listening to the legitimate reasons people are describing to you, so I can't imagine you are gonna do well in law school. Go to UNC. Enjoy. But you will 95% chance you will not be able to transfer into the t14.

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby grades?? » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:54 am

Also OP you say you have a "high" GPA- a 3.67 is a nice, strong gpa but it is not high in any sense of the word. Also, Im sure your impressive softs are stuff like worked for a congressman as an intern or started a business. yawn.

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby vhopeful88 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:57 am

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:58 am

Someone else upvoted this analogy of how 1L grading works so I'll trot it out again:

1L grading is like 10th grade health class quizzes where the grades distribution ran from a 94 to a 100. What meaningful distinction is there between someone who scored a 97 and a 99?

hint: there isn't.

Your low score on the LSAT doesn't have much value in determining your performance but it is the single most important determination on how "competitive" a school you're eligible for.

1) It's important for 1L admissions.
2) A staunch refusal to retake is irrational, which is a reflection on your decision-making. It demonstrates an inability to grasp the totality of the situatoin and your endgames in favor of short term gains and conditional and probabilistically dependent outcomes.
3) Transferring in and of itself is not going to help you get biglaw in DC. You'll go into OCI with your transfer grades and your transfer resume - and firms will know. The V15 parter who posts on TLS has said as much - when he sees a transfer he sees someone who is chasing prestige. The stigma is real.

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby vhopeful88 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:00 am

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:09 am

Then you need to reset your career goals. There are overwhelming odds that you won't get biglaw at all, much less DC biglaw. Or really any job in DC.

Sorry you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are no shortcuts.

Whatever "personal" and "financial" reasons are - they're either not as compelling as you think they are, or they're so overwhelming that it'll adversely affect your 1L performance anyway.

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby vhopeful88 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:30 am

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby grades?? » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:41 am

vhopeful88 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:Then you need to reset your career goals. There are overwhelming odds that you won't get biglaw at all, much less DC biglaw. Or really any job in DC.

Sorry you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are no shortcuts.

Whatever "personal" and "financial" reasons are - they're either not as compelling as you think they are, or they're so overwhelming that it'll adversely affect your 1L performance anyway.



Wasn't trying to "shortcut" at all. What kind of meaningful job would I be able to get for only a year with a decent salary that would look good to these top law schools? And how would one get to DC biglaw, then? Being from the area, I know they recruit at all the DC law schools-- including American and Catholic, which are tier 2 and 3 schools....So I can't imagine a T14 is a guaranteed ticket or the only route at getting into DC big law. Unless you have experience indicating otherwise, in which case I would love to hear about it


Yes I do have experience. Getting DC biglaw even top 20% of your class at Columbia isn't guaranteed. Those American/Catholic kids? I bet you its literally the top 1-2 people in their class that MIGHT get ONE opportunity at DC biglaw. DC biglaw is no joke and almost impossible to get a job from a top t14 student. It is statistically <.01% likely from a tier 2 and 3 school (mind you they are also in the area, which UNC certainly is not, with no perceivable DC alumni base unlike American/Catholic).

Also, go do anything for a year. The top schools don't care. Go work 5 hours a day at a grocery store and then study for the lsat. What matters is the score. I know people who took a year off and literally traveled for 10 months before law school apps and they are all at top 6 law schools.

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:44 am

.. double post.
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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:45 am

vhopeful88 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:Then you need to reset your career goals. There are overwhelming odds that you won't get biglaw at all, much less DC biglaw. Or really any job in DC.

Sorry you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are no shortcuts.

Whatever "personal" and "financial" reasons are - they're either not as compelling as you think they are, or they're so overwhelming that it'll adversely affect your 1L performance anyway.



Wasn't trying to "shortcut" at all. What kind of meaningful job would I be able to get for only a year with a decent salary that would look good to these top law schools? And how would one get to DC biglaw, then? Being from the area, I know they recruit at all the DC law schools-- including American and Catholic, which are tier 2 and 3 schools....So I can't imagine a T14 is a guaranteed ticket or the only route at getting into DC big law. Unless you have experience indicating otherwise, in which case I would love to hear about it


1) The "meaningfulness" of your gap year job doesn't play into your admissions at all. LSAT/GPA are the overwhelming deterministic factors for every school including Yale. Paralegal is the default suggestiong though. You can also try sales, the Hill if you're in DC, etc.

2) There are no guaranteed tickets to DC biglaw. You get DC biglaw by having good/great grades at a T14. DC biglaw in general is a funnel for the entire country where top students all eventually want to end up. Between the BigFed opportunities and the limited BL opportunities and insane supply of JD's, DC legal employment is a tough get no matter who/where you are.

3) You need top grades (like top 5-10%) at American, Catholic, Howard to even get screeners for DC big law. After that, you'll still need to network like crazy and really kill it in your interviews to get a SA offer. It's tough to get BL even from GW. Hell, even the odds coming out of GULC for DC BL doesn't make it anywhere near a "guarantee."

4) This is the reality. It really doesn't matter what you think, what you imagine, what's fair, or what your friends have told you. The employment numbers are out there and you can see for yourself. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:49 am

pancakes3 wrote:Someone else upvoted this analogy of how 1L grading works so I'll trot it out again:
3) Transferring in and of itself is not going to help you get biglaw in DC. You'll go into OCI with your transfer grades and your transfer resume - and firms will know. The V15 parter who posts on TLS has said as much - when he sees a transfer he sees someone who is chasing prestige. The stigma is real.


This.

UNC grad here. You need to be about in the top 10% at UNC to transfer to a T14. But as pancakes points out, the premise of your question is flawed. Being top 10% at UNC gives you a pretty decent shot at DC biglaw, and taking on full-sticker tuition at a T14 probably gives you a marginal benefit at best in terms of getting DC biglaw. If there's any effect, it's that you'd have access to more firms at OCI.

There are lots of smart, hard-working people at UNC. Many of them don't end up in the top 10%. This includes folks with full or close to full scholarships who have been habitual overachievers who came in above 75% in both LSAT and GPA. You just can't count on it. <Edit> And even if you do get top 10%, I've seen folks in the top 10% gun hard for DC and come up empty handed. For it to really be a sure thing, you'd need to be in the top 5% or even top 10 students.

There are a lot of good things about UNC, but if you want a decent shot at DC biglaw, the advice that everyone has stated here is correct—retake. If you insist on going to UNC, you should be ready to stay in NC or the Southeast and hustle to find a small firm to work at or a local or state government job. You had also better have ties in NC or somewhere close in the Southeast otherwise that task becomes much more difficult.
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vhopeful88

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby vhopeful88 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:51 am

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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby PeanutsNJam » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:53 am

There is a lot of exaggerating going on in this thread but here are a few unassailable truths:

- You have no control over what your grades will be and have no way of knowing what they will be. LSAT/GPA are as good a predictor of law school performance as SAT/ACT scores are a predictor of undergrad performance. At the extremes, there is some valid correlation (180 vs 150), but close that gap and there is no meaningful correlation (170 vs 160).

- UNC will not give you good odds of getting biglaw, regardless of what city we're talking about.

- DC is more competitive than most cities, although I am not targeting or applying to that city for 2L OCI so I don't have any first-hand experience.

- You need to be in the top 10% to have a reasonable chance at Columbia/NYU. That means you have to get better grades than 90% of your classmates. To put that into perspective, in a class of 30 people, you have to have one of the 3 highest grades.
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Re: Transferring from UNC Law to T14???

Postby vhopeful88 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:53 am

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