First job by tier school?

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Nebby

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Nebby » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:25 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:So do people really get this excellent job the moment they step out of their hls graduation and recieve their bar passage? And do people who come from tier four get much worse? I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter. Or do they? If you could tell me your tier you graduated and how your first job was like. Thank you.

Yes. Over half of Tier Four graduates do not have a job lined up 9 months after graduation. About 94% of HLS graduates do. The jobs that HLS graduates get cannot be gotten at a Tier Four--not even by someone at or near the top of their class at a Tier Four.


If you look at the question you will notice it's looking for more in depth description of first jobs and how that first job was like. The benefits or drawbacks of that first job based on the tier that person school of graduation. But I starting to see, they all must pass the same bar test. And they all start at the bottom. And they all must learn the ropes once hired. The years will pass by, and the name of the school they graduate will matter less and less. Especially as they specialize in certain areas. Judges, partner, a lawyer who wins a landmark case, chairman of CDVF, or eeoc, or OSHA. Congressman. The tools that get a person to top of that ladder is not the name of their school. But I really wanted more thorough description of a first job.

First jobs from HLS:
Law Firm with more than 100 lawyers
Entry-level positions with the federal government
Entry-level positions at prestigious nonprofits/international NGOs
Clerkship positions on federal trial, appellate, and the Supreme Court
Academic positions

First jobs from tier four:
Law firm jobs with 1 to 10 lawyers
Entry Level positions in state or local government
Entry level positions at community nonprofits
Little to no clerkship possibilities
No academic positions

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Synch

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Synch » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:27 am

Words, OP has the best words.

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jnwa

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby jnwa » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:28 am

Nebby wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:So do people really get this excellent job the moment they step out of their hls graduation and recieve their bar passage? And do people who come from tier four get much worse? I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter. Or do they? If you could tell me your tier you graduated and how your first job was like. Thank you.

Yes. Over half of Tier Four graduates do not have a job lined up 9 months after graduation. About 94% of HLS graduates do. The jobs that HLS graduates get cannot be gotten at a Tier Four--not even by someone at or near the top of their class at a Tier Four.


If you look at the question you will notice it's looking for more in depth description of first jobs and how that first job was like. The benefits or drawbacks of that first job based on the tier that person school of graduation. But I starting to see, they all must pass the same bar test. And they all start at the bottom. And they all must learn the ropes once hired. The years will pass by, and the name of the school they graduate will matter less and less. Especially as they specialize in certain areas. Judges, partner, a lawyer who wins a landmark case, chairman of CDVF, or eeoc, or OSHA. Congressman. The tools that get a person to top of that ladder is not the name of their school. But I really wanted more thorough description of a first job.

First jobs from HLS:
Law Firm with more than 100 lawyers
Entry-level positions with the federal government
Entry-level positions at prestigious nonprofits/international NGOs
Clerkship positions on federal trial, appellate, and the Supreme Court
Academic positions

First jobs from tier four:
Law firm jobs with 1 to 10 lawyers
Entry Level positions in state or local government
Entry level positions at community nonprofits
Little to no clerkship possibilities
No academic positions
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AntsInMyEyesJohnson

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby AntsInMyEyesJohnson » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:34 am

pancakes3 wrote:What's so hard about the concept that for many TTTT grads their first job is "no job" ?


This.

SFSpartan

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby SFSpartan » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:34 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:I think you are an intelligent contributor. But you use ad hominine. Or however you spell it. I shan't need to worry about how intelligent I look. Nor do I need to concern myself with the way my words fly eloquently or not. All that counts is whether the substance I use is good. Now I shall list a few bottom tiered people. John Grisham attended University of Mississippi, the law school, currently a tier 3. His net worth is 220 million dollars. Not a good example, I'm sure. Christina Perez, tv judge, from Whittier. Judge Jeanine Pirro, news anchor, from Albany law school, was chairwomen of New York State CDVF. A Westchester court judge--Started as a district attorney. Megyn Kelly also attended Albany law school. But, what am trying to prove? Is that the name of the school ONLY matters when reaching the first job. After that, it's weight diminishes. My intelligence is not relevant in the argument.


Actually, I've responded substantively to each post you've written. While I have called some of your ideas dumb, I have answered you substantively every time.

I would again encourage you to use words that you know how to spell and use correctly. I can assure you that actual lawyers care much more than any reasonable person should about grammar errors. I can further assure you that misspelling words and making errors is an excellent way to get a reputation for doing sloppy work.

It's great that the people you mentioned are successful (despite the fact that Megan Kelly and Judge Pirro's shows have serious problems re: logic and use of facts). However, you are cherry picking the data that supports your argument. Specifically, you named four people, all of whom graduated law school a long time ago, while ignoring the tens of thousands of unemployed TTT grads that have graduated over the past decade. Thus, you've picked four data points that make your argument appear correct, while the data strongly suggests otherwise.

Further, the people you picked don't support your argument that strongly because their primary success was had outside the legal profession. The debate we are having here is whether HLS/T14 schools are TTTs lead people to be more successful as lawyers. Therefore, the fact that an author, two TV personalities, and someone that has a law-related show (I'm referring to Christina Perez - those small claims judge shows are really more like reality shows than actual court) doesn't really help your argument.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that you can't be successful as a grad of a TTT law school. Rather, I'm arguing that (i) HLS and T14 schools are better if one wants to be successful as a lawyer; (ii) that working in a large law firm acts as a rubber stamp for other legal jobs - allowing large firm alumni to get jobs that are functionally impossible to get without that experience; and (iii)that the name of your law school, while it does become less significant over time, is always significant to some extent. With points (ii) and (iii) in mind, I'll turn my attention to a subsequent post

Pilloriedbrain wrote:Well, I would never discourage some to get into thè best school they can. The benefit is mainly with the first job, then school name becomes ancillary especially after fiver years in. Also, the most ambitious people go to Harvard and the like making the school great, not the other way around. Which makes them preferable for their first job. However, after five years or so, I'd imagine the name means less to employers. Like would you hire a first timer from Harvard or a tier four lawyer with five years of directly relevant experience under his belt. Logic says the experienced one. Even if they were both first timers, they both passed the bar, the only difference is that name, hls. So first job, hls gets picked.


While your school name is most strongly correlated to your first job, that first job can and does act as a rubber stamp for subsequent jobs. Put differently, there are many jobs which are functionally impossible to get without large firm experience. Specifically, I'm thinking of roles such as GC at a unicorn startup, a variety of in house gigs, prestigious BigFed positions and partner at a large law firm. These mid and late career jobs overwhelmingly go to people with previous big firm experience. And graduates of top law schools overwhelmingly start their career in big firms. Moreover, it is extremely difficult to get to a big firm without having previous experience at a big firm (as has been well documented on this site, biglaw firms typically hire laterals from other biglaw firms). Ergo, your school can help you get your first job, which helps you get a subsequent role.

To put the above differently, while quality of work product is more important five years out, having biglaw experience is often a necessary rubber stamp for certain positions. If you don't have that initial experience, you often are not able to move up. Thus, school is beneficial, as it makes individuals more likely to get the experience that allows them to move on to subsequent positions.

Your post also ignores the importance of the relationships one gains in law school. Having relationships with successful classmates can be important in moving one's career forward. I'm fairly certain that ATL ran a story last year showing that associates and partners at failing firms were more likely to get a job after their firm failed if they went to a highly ranked school. This is likely due to the fact that going to a top LS helps one build relationships with peers who are also successful as attorneys, and are able to provide assistance when needed. Not going to do a deep dive on this point though.

The other logical flaw in the post above is your assumption that the legal profession is a meritocracy. The legal profession is not a meritocracy in the same way that business or engineering are meritocracies - there, quality of work is paramount and, at least as far as business is concerned, the market cares primarily about talent. Legal work, in contrast is not especially difficult. In fact, I would posit that any reasonably intelligent person, having gone to law school, is capable of doing most average legal work. Since the work itself is, in general, not particularly complicated, things such as school name tend to correlate strongly with success in this profession. Personally, I think the focus on school name is misplaced. It is, however, a reality that the legal profession is obsessed with prestige, and that the name of one's law school is of some importance.

HonestAdvice

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby HonestAdvice » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:42 pm

OP - While the legal economy changed forever in 2008, there was never a time when graduates from the schools you're talking about had legitimate opportunities for a good first job. I'm not only speaking about big law or DA positions, but also the chance to work at a respected smaller firm or in-house. The difference was they could all get jobs for solos or tiny firms, learn the tricks of the trade and create better options for themselves. That's now over, and in many cases the vast majority of these graduates only get doc review work, which makes it near impossible to ever get real legal work.

You're right that the ladder isn't over after law school, but your implied argument is wrong. Your logic is that if a Adam from Harvard with a great first job fails then Bill from New England School of Law with no first job can be successful. That's not how the game works.

Picture you're in a pizza shop for lunch. Your lunch is the legal economy, and the 8 slices are 8 people in 8 jobs. As your lunch hour progresses, there are fewer and fewer slices. The pizza shop doesn't replace the slices you've eaten with new slices so that you always have 8 slices. Those slices are gone. Your body has converted them into shit, and they no longer taste cheesy and delicious. They taste like shit. The assumption you should be drawing is not if Adam fails then Bill will succeed. It's that if Adam fails then Bill is fucked.

lavarman84

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby lavarman84 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:08 pm

HonestAdvice wrote:OP - While the legal economy changed forever in 2008, there was never a time when graduates from the schools you're talking about had legitimate opportunities for a good first job. I'm not only speaking about big law or DA positions, but also the chance to work at a respected smaller firm or in-house. The difference was they could all get jobs for solos or tiny firms, learn the tricks of the trade and create better options for themselves. That's now over, and in many cases the vast majority of these graduates only get doc review work, which makes it near impossible to ever get real legal work.

You're right that the ladder isn't over after law school, but your implied argument is wrong. Your logic is that if a Adam from Harvard with a great first job fails then Bill from New England School of Law with no first job can be successful. That's not how the game works.

Picture you're in a pizza shop for lunch. Your lunch is the legal economy, and the 8 slices are 8 people in 8 jobs. As your lunch hour progresses, there are fewer and fewer slices. The pizza shop doesn't replace the slices you've eaten with new slices so that you always have 8 slices. Those slices are gone. Your body has converted them into shit, and they no longer taste cheesy and delicious. They taste like shit. The assumption you should be drawing is not if Adam fails then Bill will succeed. It's that if Adam fails then Bill is fucked.


I chuckled at this. I think you're mistaking your idea of a "prestigious" job for a "good" job.

ghostoftraynor

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby ghostoftraynor » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:37 am

Not sure why everyone is being so nice to OP. Beyond being purposefully ignorant, he is dismissive of people who have tried, tried, and tried again to answer his question. TLS community, you have been great, but I doubt OP deserves it.

Anyway, I'm also compelled to answer question for OP, but not for its sake. Just a somewhat interesting question that may be useful for later generations.

First jorb HLS: Pretty much guaranteed big law, and top of the line clerkships/ government work are in your sights.

First jorb non-HLS t13: Opportunities vary depending on ranking, but generally same as above but less guarantee and on average lower prestige.

First jorb non t13 strong state school/big state: This is an amorphous category, but I mean like the top schools in big states. Your state probably has big law, and going to strong local school (best non t13 in state, especially if state doesn't have t13) gives you about a 10-15% chance of getting big law there. NYC might be a shot too. If so, you'll have same opportunities as above, but they will be fewer, and you will be probably judged. Not saying that is fair, but it will happen. If you aren't one of said top students, you will work for a firm of 1-10 and make around 60k, depending on COL. Also decent chance you will be unemployed.

First jorb at any other school: Depends on school, but chances of big law are fairly non existent. Same with big gov and federal clerkships. Maybe state gov/clerkships. Most likely will work at small firm, but also VERY good chance no work at all.

Post first jorb: After your first job, your school won't matter as much, but it always will. Harvard on the resume is always going to give you points. What is important is what your job is. Its possible to get big law from a small firm, but very hard. And its generally difficult to move up the ladder. A cravath associate could go to DLA, but DLA couldn't go to cravath. Doesn't really matter how "great" you are unless you somehow have built up a crazy book of business. Clerkships, Gov, work similarly. Also, if you didn't go to HLS academia is almost out of the question. Especially if not t13.

In sum, yes, there are famous people from every school. Your chance of being the needle in the haystack are slim. Its honestly more about luck than talent. If you go to a t4, be prepared to be unemployed. If you aren't, you will be working for a small firm. Not terrible, but don't expect to make it big unless you end up starting you are own PI firm and land a case that gets a lot of punitive damages.

P.S. sure grammar is somewhat overstated. The ideas expressed should be more important than the form used to express them. But you are thinking about going into what is possibly the most anal profession of them all. Make sure your yours are the correct form or you can kiss success goodbye, regardless of your first job.

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:51 am

OP intentionally misspelled "ladder" like 4 times. Either this is a troll or a 5 year old. He's using large words incorrectly as well.

Your intelligence matters in an argument because it's impossible to argue with a rock.

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mwells56

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby mwells56 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:58 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:OP intentionally misspelled "ladder" like 4 times. Either this is a troll or a 5 year old. He's using large words incorrectly as well.

Your intelligence matters in an argument because it's impossible to argue with a rock.


This is totally irrelevant but that last line reminded me of something my high school psych teacher said to us about how vastly more intelligent humans are than every other species, it went something like "People always say that dolphins are so freaking smart. Try and find a dolphin that can beat me at Scrabble."

HonestAdvice

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby HonestAdvice » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:08 pm

ghostoftraynor wrote:Not sure why everyone is being so nice to OP. Beyond being purposefully ignorant, he is dismissive of people who have tried, tried, and tried again to answer his question. TLS community, you have been great, but I doubt OP deserves it.

Anyway, I'm also compelled to answer question for OP, but not for its sake. Just a somewhat interesting question that may be useful for later generations.

First jorb HLS: Pretty much guaranteed big law, and top of the line clerkships/ government work are in your sights.

First jorb non-HLS t13: Opportunities vary depending on ranking, but generally same as above but less guarantee and on average lower prestige.

First jorb non t13 strong state school/big state: This is an amorphous category, but I mean like the top schools in big states. Your state probably has big law, and going to strong local school (best non t13 in state, especially if state doesn't have t13) gives you about a 10-15% chance of getting big law there. NYC might be a shot too. If so, you'll have same opportunities as above, but they will be fewer, and you will be probably judged. Not saying that is fair, but it will happen. If you aren't one of said top students, you will work for a firm of 1-10 and make around 60k, depending on COL. Also decent chance you will be unemployed.

First jorb at any other school: Depends on school, but chances of big law are fairly non existent. Same with big gov and federal clerkships. Maybe state gov/clerkships. Most likely will work at small firm, but also VERY good chance no work at all.

Post first jorb: After your first job, your school won't matter as much, but it always will. Harvard on the resume is always going to give you points. What is important is what your job is. Its possible to get big law from a small firm, but very hard. And its generally difficult to move up the ladder. A cravath associate could go to DLA, but DLA couldn't go to cravath. Doesn't really matter how "great" you are unless you somehow have built up a crazy book of business. Clerkships, Gov, work similarly. Also, if you didn't go to HLS academia is almost out of the question. Especially if not t13.

In sum, yes, there are famous people from every school. Your chance of being the needle in the haystack are slim. Its honestly more about luck than talent. If you go to a t4, be prepared to be unemployed. If you aren't, you will be working for a small firm. Not terrible, but don't expect to make it big unless you end up starting you are own PI firm and land a case that gets a lot of punitive damages.

P.S. sure grammar is somewhat overstated. The ideas expressed should be more important than the form used to express them. But you are thinking about going into what is possibly the most anal profession of them all. Make sure your yours are the correct form or you can kiss success goodbye, regardless of your first job.

I think he has a personality disorder and some kind of learning impairment, which evokes pity.



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