First job by tier school? Forum

[Pilloriedbrain]

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

Some people I think have this implicit perception that the ladder is over once they finish law school--that then everything settles, and they will do the simple life, have a family, etc.

However, it just gets more brutal.

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

[heythatslife]

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

Some people I think have this implicit perception that the ladder is over once they finish law school--that then everything settles, and they will do the simple life, have a family, etc.

However, it just gets more brutal.

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

Being a T14 grad doesn't solve all the challenges of being a junior lawyer, ergo it doesn't matter what school you go to?

JFC, you're either a troll or an idiot, and I'm done trying to explain to you.

[jnwa]

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

Some people I think have this implicit perception that the ladder is over once they finish law school--that then everything settles, and they will do the simple life, have a family, etc.

However, it just gets more brutal.

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

When a t4 grad looks stuff up his boss comes in and says "awhh look at my cute wittle 1st year associate".

[stego]

I feel uncomfortable making fun of people for their writing on the Internet when English is probably not their first language.

First-year associates at the same big law firm all get paid the same amount no matter which school they went to. But the top law schools' grads are more likely to get those jobs and the T4 grads are more likely to have crappy jobs or no jobs at all.

Where has OP indicated he's ESL? The mistakes he's making are those typical of native speakers poorly trained in writing, and nothing in his posting history suggests he's ESL.

Didn't check his posting history. I've worked with a lot of ESL learners and can usually tell but I concede I was reaching on this one. My apologies, OP.

[Pilloriedbrain]

I feel uncomfortable making fun of people for their writing on the Internet when English is probably not their first language.

First-year associates at the same big law firm all get paid the same amount no matter which school they went to. But the top law schools' grads are more likely to get those jobs and the T4 grads are more likely to have crappy jobs or no jobs at all.

Where has OP indicated he's ESL? The mistakes he's making are those typical of native speakers poorly trained in writing, and nothing in his posting history suggests he's ESL.

I don't believe poorly trained is the correct terminology. I could have a poor teacher, but yet be an astounding writer. If I'm making mistakes, it would mean I'm a poor writer. However, it's mostly the fact Im extemporaneously writing with little to zero proof reading.

[Pilloriedbrain]

I feel uncomfortable making fun of people for their writing on the Internet when English is probably not their first language.

First-year associates at the same big law firm all get paid the same amount no matter which school they went to. But the top law schools' grads are more likely to get those jobs and the T4 grads are more likely to have crappy jobs or no jobs at all.

Where has OP indicated he's ESL? The mistakes he's making are those typical of native speakers poorly trained in writing, and nothing in his posting history suggests he's ESL.

Didn't check his posting history. I've worked with a lot of ESL learners and can usually tell but I concede I was reaching on this one. My apologies, OP.

[Pilloriedbrain]

I feel uncomfortable making fun of people for their writing on the Internet when English is probably not their first language.

First-year associates at the same big law firm all get paid the same amount no matter which school they went to. But the top law schools' grads are more likely to get those jobs and the T4 grads are more likely to have crappy jobs or no jobs at all.

Where has OP indicated he's ESL? The mistakes he's making are those typical of native speakers poorly trained in writing, and nothing in his posting history suggests he's ESL.

Didn't check his posting history. I've worked with a lot of ESL learners and can usually tell but I concede I was reaching on this one. My apologies, OP.

None taken. But damn I wish I could speak a foriegn language. I wanted to go to Germany to study the german language. But then law school accepted me. Maybe next summer.

[Pilloriedbrain]

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

Some people I think have this implicit perception that the ladder is over once they finish law school--that then everything settles, and they will do the simple life, have a family, etc.

However, it just gets more brutal.

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

Being a T14 grad doesn't solve all the challenges of being a junior lawyer, ergo it doesn't matter what school you go to?

JFC, you're either a troll or an idiot, and I'm done trying to explain to you.

I agreed with you on that point when you first mentioned it. It's become ancillary to multiple points that were more poignant. If you notice, I capitulated the question was flawed.

[Pilloriedbrain]

I'll be honest, I just love using big words in writing. THEY LOOK SO MAGNIFICENT!!

[Oskosh]

I feel uncomfortable making fun of people for their writing on the Internet when English is probably not their first language.

First-year associates at the same big law firm all get paid the same amount no matter which school they went to. But the top law schools' grads are more likely to get those jobs and the T4 grads are more likely to have crappy jobs or no jobs at all.

Where has OP indicated he's ESL? The mistakes he's making are those typical of native speakers poorly trained in writing, and nothing in his posting history suggests he's ESL.

I don't believe poorly trained is the correct terminology. I could have a poor teacher, but yet be an astounding writer. If I'm making mistakes, it would mean I'm a poor writer. However, it's mostly the fact Im extemporaneously writing with little to zero proof reading.

Lmao, loving this thread.

[lavarman84]

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

This sounds made-up. This is pretty much the opposite of what lawyers want.

[cavalier1138]

Yes, as everyone has said, people who go to HLS have better jobs, and have them lined up earlier, than students at T4 schools. Go to lawschooltransparency.com and compare the job statistics by school. This doesn't mean every HLS student ever ends up with a great job, or that no T4 student can ever get a good job. But as a generalization, it absolutely holds.

I don't know what "I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter" means, but I'm pretty sure it's not correct.

I misspelt ladder. My question was poorly formed. The question is after one receives the first jobs, what drawback does the law school someone attended to incur? My father went to MIT on a free ride to receive his graduate degree in nuclear engineering. I said if took the lsat again I'd be able to get into much better schools. He said don't. After you get your first job, you're right back to learning a whole new set of nuts and bolts. You're real goal is to learn those faster. Then master even bigger fish. The school name could hold a guy back in their first entry job. But it's not the name that will launch you up to partner. Perhaps a hls grad presumed more qualified then really is for a job might run into a drawback because he'll lose the job, when he doesn't deliver expected results. I think the CEO of Enron went to Harvard business. He was not up to par. Anyhow, I hope I'm giving more thorough understanding of my jejune question.

Ok, on the off-chance that this isn't trolling (or that some poor real person reads this thread and takes you seriously):

Your dad is not a lawyer, and your dad is wrong. Jobs like biglaw associate positions are pretty much only offered right out of school. So if your "ladder" includes biglaw jobs, over 90% of students at T4 schools don't even have the chance to get their foot on the first rung. Other competitive jobs in the public service area (like international NGOs, DOJ jobs, high-level PI, etc.) literally throw resumes out if they don't come from a certain pedigree of school.

At any rate, people have been far more polite with you than you deserve. This was a ridiculous question from the start, and you could have answered it yourself by looking at any one of a half-dozen sites and reports that break down employment by school and salary.

[AntsInMyEyesJohnson]

Yes, as everyone has said, people who go to HLS have better jobs, and have them lined up earlier, than students at T4 schools. Go to lawschooltransparency.com and compare the job statistics by school. This doesn't mean every HLS student ever ends up with a great job, or that no T4 student can ever get a good job. But as a generalization, it absolutely holds.

I don't know what "I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter" means, but I'm pretty sure it's not correct.

I misspelt ladder. My question was poorly formed. The question is after one receives the first jobs, what drawback does the law school someone attended to incur? My father went to MIT on a free ride to receive his graduate degree in nuclear engineering. I said if took the lsat again I'd be able to get into much better schools. He said don't. After you get your first job, you're right back to learning a whole new set of nuts and bolts. You're real goal is to learn those faster. Then master even bigger fish. The school name could hold a guy back in their first entry job. But it's not the name that will launch you up to partner. Perhaps a hls grad presumed more qualified then really is for a job might run into a drawback because he'll lose the job, when he doesn't deliver expected results. I think the CEO of Enron went to Harvard business. He was not up to par. Anyhow, I hope I'm giving more thorough understanding of my jejune question.

Ok, on the off-chance that this isn't trolling (or that some poor real person reads this thread and takes you seriously):

Your dad is not a lawyer, and your dad is wrong. Jobs like biglaw associate positions are pretty much only offered right out of school. So if your "ladder" includes biglaw jobs, over 90% of students at T4 schools don't even have the chance to get their foot on the first rung. Other competitive jobs in the public service area (like international NGOs, DOJ jobs, high-level PI, etc.) literally throw resumes out if they don't come from a certain pedigree of school.

At any rate, people have been far more polite with you than you deserve. This was a ridiculous question from the start, and you could have answered it yourself by looking at any one of a half-dozen sites and reports that break down employment by school and salary.

Might as well just let him believe what he has his mind set on. Sure, OP, while someone from a tier four school might not get the high-paying, prestigious jobs their first year out of school, since they very likely won't have any job out of law school (how is this not clicking for you?), those grads will surely outshine those dumb HLS kids working at those overrated firms in NYC and those laughable clerkships. This is exactly why you see so many T4 grads as partners at the big firms and as federal judges.

In short, do it, OP. You're on track to have all of the opportunities in the world, provided you pick that T4 instead of a top school.

[Tiago Splitter]

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

This sounds made-up. This is pretty much the opposite of what lawyers want.

The partner told the associate to leave the meter running while he retrieved the book.

[SFSpartan]

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

Some people I think have this implicit perception that the ladder is over once they finish law school--that then everything settles, and they will do the simple life, have a family, etc.

However, it just gets more brutal.

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

I'm not sure where you got that I had that ridiculous implicit perception. But I don't think LS=career. That said, it is pretty well established that a majority of people will foreclose certain career paths by going to a low-ranked school.

That story sounds made up. As others have pointed out, no reasonable lawyer would actually do that. Also, pretty much nobody uses case reporters any more - that's what we have Westlaw for.

Stop listening to your father. He might be an otherwise intelligent, lovely person, but he is grossly misinformed on this particular topic. In general, don't listen to your parents when they are talking about things that are outside their area of expertise.

Your use of big/intelligent words in your writing is super random and kind of weird. It also doesn't fit with the rest of your poorly spelled, poorly formed thoughts (i.e. it makes you look dumb, which is probably the opposite of what you are going for). Nobody likes the guy that uses big words so that other people will think he's smart. Don't be that guy, OP.

[Nebby]

So do people really get this excellent job the moment they step out of their hls graduation and recieve their bar passage? And do people who come from tier four get much worse? I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter. Or do they? If you could tell me your tier you graduated and how your first job was like. Thank you.

Yes. Over half of Tier Four graduates do not have a job lined up 9 months after graduation. About 94% of HLS graduates do. The jobs that HLS graduates get cannot be gotten at a Tier Four--not even by someone at or near the top of their class at a Tier Four.

[Auxilio]

Your use of big/intelligent words in your writing is super random and kind of weird. It also doesn't fit with the rest of your poorly spelled, poorly formed thoughts (i.e. it makes you look dumb, which is probably the opposite of what you are going for). Nobody likes the guy that uses big words so that other people will think he's smart. Don't be that guy, OP.

An example of this working really badly against you OP: because of previous posts implying (being blunt) low intelligence and bad spelling I came across a word I didn't know "jejune" and my thought wasn't "I don't know that word I will look it up" it was "Does he mean genuine? God he's bad at spelling"

Now, that is obviously partly my fault for not knowing the word jejune, but I don't come off worse for it--you do.

[PresTTTigious]

The average T4 grad will be getting a presTTTTigious job.

[Pilloriedbrain]

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

Some people I think have this implicit perception that the ladder is over once they finish law school--that then everything settles, and they will do the simple life, have a family, etc.

However, it just gets more brutal.

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

I'm not sure where you got that I had that ridiculous implicit perception. But I don't think LS=career. That said, it is pretty well established that a majority of people will foreclose certain career paths by going to a low-ranked school.

That story sounds made up. As others have pointed out, no reasonable lawyer would actually do that. Also, pretty much nobody uses case reporters any more - that's what we have Westlaw for.

Stop listening to your father. He might be an otherwise intelligent, lovely person, but he is grossly misinformed on this particular topic. In general, don't listen to your parents when they are talking about things that are outside their area of expertise.

Your use of big/intelligent words in your writing is super random and kind of weird. It also doesn't fit with the rest of your poorly spelled, poorly formed thoughts (i.e. it makes you look dumb, which is probably the opposite of what you are going for). Nobody likes the guy that uses big words so that other people will think he's smart. Don't be that guy, OP.

I think you are an intelligent contributor. But you use ad hominine. Or however you spell it. I shan't need to worry about how intelligent I look. Nor do I need to concern myself with the way my words fly eloquently or not. All that counts is whether the substance I use is good. Now I shall list a few bottom tiered people. John Grisham attended University of Mississippi, the law school, currently a tier 3. His net worth is 220 million dollars. Not a good example, I'm sure. Christina Perez, tv judge, from Whittier. Judge Jeanine Pirro, news anchor, from Albany law school, was chairwomen of New York State CDVF. A Westchester court judge--Started as a district attorney. Megyn Kelly also attended Albany law school. But, what am trying to prove? Is that the name of the school ONLY matters when reaching the first job. After that, it's weight diminishes. My intelligence is not relevant in the argument.

[mwells56]

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

Some people I think have this implicit perception that the ladder is over once they finish law school--that then everything settles, and they will do the simple life, have a family, etc.

However, it just gets more brutal.

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

I'm not sure where you got that I had that ridiculous implicit perception. But I don't think LS=career. That said, it is pretty well established that a majority of people will foreclose certain career paths by going to a low-ranked school.

That story sounds made up. As others have pointed out, no reasonable lawyer would actually do that. Also, pretty much nobody uses case reporters any more - that's what we have Westlaw for.

Stop listening to your father. He might be an otherwise intelligent, lovely person, but he is grossly misinformed on this particular topic. In general, don't listen to your parents when they are talking about things that are outside their area of expertise.

Your use of big/intelligent words in your writing is super random and kind of weird. It also doesn't fit with the rest of your poorly spelled, poorly formed thoughts (i.e. it makes you look dumb, which is probably the opposite of what you are going for). Nobody likes the guy that uses big words so that other people will think he's smart. Don't be that guy, OP.

I think you are an intelligent contributor. But you use ad hominine. Or however you spell it. I shan't need to worry about how intelligent I look. Nor do I need to concern myself with the way my words fly eloquently or not. All that counts is whether the substance I use is good. Now I shall list a few bottom tiered people. John Grisham attended University of Mississippi, the law school, currently a tier 3. His net worth is 220 million dollars. Not a good example, I'm sure. Christina Perez, tv judge, from Whittier. Judge Jeanine Pirro, news anchor, from Albany law school, was chairwomen of New York State CDVF. A Westchester court judge--Started as a district attorney. Megyn Kelly also attended Albany law school. But, what am trying to prove? Is that the name of the school ONLY matters when reaching the first job. After that, it's weight diminishes. My intelligence is not relevant in the argument.

Bro, chill with the unnecessary language.

And for every John Grisham, Christina Perez, Jeanine Pirro, Megyn Kelly, or whoever, there's countless other graduates from those schools that didn't make it big. All that pointing these people out has done for your argument is say that there's a non-zero chance you end up like one of them from a crappy law school.

The ultra-successful lawyers are, in a significantly disproportionate fashion, from the top law schools. There's a whole bunch of reasons for this, and I'm willing to bet at least one of the big ones is that there's a bias that assumes that students who graduated from those schools are smarter. Is it EVERYTHING? No, of course not, no one factor is. But is sure as damn hell is important.

[Pilloriedbrain]

So do people really get this excellent job the moment they step out of their hls graduation and recieve their bar passage? And do people who come from tier four get much worse? I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter. Or do they? If you could tell me your tier you graduated and how your first job was like. Thank you.

Yes. Over half of Tier Four graduates do not have a job lined up 9 months after graduation. About 94% of HLS graduates do. The jobs that HLS graduates get cannot be gotten at a Tier Four--not even by someone at or near the top of their class at a Tier Four.

If you look at the question you will notice it's looking for more in depth description of first jobs and how that first job was like. The benefits or drawbacks of that first job based on the tier that person school of graduation. But I starting to see, they all must pass the same bar test. And they all start at the bottom. And they all must learn the ropes once hired. The years will pass by, and the name of the school they graduate will matter less and less. Especially as they specialize in certain areas. Judges, partner, a lawyer who wins a landmark case, chairman of CDVF, or eeoc, or OSHA. Congressman. The tools that get a person to top of that ladder is not the name of their school. But I really wanted more thorough description of a first job.

[Pilloriedbrain]

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

Some people I think have this implicit perception that the ladder is over once they finish law school--that then everything settles, and they will do the simple life, have a family, etc.

However, it just gets more brutal.

I once heard a story a t14 law grad on the first, pulled a book to look up something. It was a book from his law school. The boss walked in and said "I'm paying you to know not to learn", then literally took the book and through it out the window. Which is stultifying for a first timer. I'm sure.

I'm not sure where you got that I had that ridiculous implicit perception. But I don't think LS=career. That said, it is pretty well established that a majority of people will foreclose certain career paths by going to a low-ranked school.

That story sounds made up. As others have pointed out, no reasonable lawyer would actually do that. Also, pretty much nobody uses case reporters any more - that's what we have Westlaw for.

Stop listening to your father. He might be an otherwise intelligent, lovely person, but he is grossly misinformed on this particular topic. In general, don't listen to your parents when they are talking about things that are outside their area of expertise.

Your use of big/intelligent words in your writing is super random and kind of weird. It also doesn't fit with the rest of your poorly spelled, poorly formed thoughts (i.e. it makes you look dumb, which is probably the opposite of what you are going for). Nobody likes the guy that uses big words so that other people will think he's smart. Don't be that guy, OP.

I think you are an intelligent contributor. But you use ad hominine. Or however you spell it. I shan't need to worry about how intelligent I look. Nor do I need to concern myself with the way my words fly eloquently or not. All that counts is whether the substance I use is good. Now I shall list a few bottom tiered people. John Grisham attended University of Mississippi, the law school, currently a tier 3. His net worth is 220 million dollars. Not a good example, I'm sure. Christina Perez, tv judge, from Whittier. Judge Jeanine Pirro, news anchor, from Albany law school, was chairwomen of New York State CDVF. A Westchester court judge--Started as a district attorney. Megyn Kelly also attended Albany law school. But, what am trying to prove? Is that the name of the school ONLY matters when reaching the first job. After that, it's weight diminishes. My intelligence is not relevant in the argument.

Bro, chill with the unnecessary language.

And for every John Grisham, Christina Perez, Jeanine Pirro, Megyn Kelly, or whoever, there's countless other graduates from those schools that didn't make it big. All that pointing these people out has done for your argument is say that there's a non-zero chance you end up like one of them from a crappy law school.

The ultra-successful lawyers are, in a significantly disproportionate fashion, from the top law schools. There's a whole bunch of reasons for this, and I'm willing to bet at least one of the big ones is that there's a bias that assumes that students who graduated from those schools are smarter. Is it EVERYTHING? No, of course not, no one factor is. But is sure as damn hell is important.

I would never discourage someone from attending a tier one school. Just wanted a description of some first jobs out of law school.

[Pilloriedbrain]

Yes, as everyone has said, people who go to HLS have better jobs, and have them lined up earlier, than students at T4 schools. Go to lawschooltransparency.com and compare the job statistics by school. This doesn't mean every HLS student ever ends up with a great job, or that no T4 student can ever get a good job. But as a generalization, it absolutely holds.

I don't know what "I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter" means, but I'm pretty sure it's not correct.

I misspelt ladder. My question was poorly formed. The question is after one receives the first jobs, what drawback does the law school someone attended to incur? My father went to MIT on a free ride to receive his graduate degree in nuclear engineering. I said if took the lsat again I'd be able to get into much better schools. He said don't. After you get your first job, you're right back to learning a whole new set of nuts and bolts. You're real goal is to learn those faster. Then master even bigger fish. The school name could hold a guy back in their first entry job. But it's not the name that will launch you up to partner. Perhaps a hls grad presumed more qualified then really is for a job might run into a drawback because he'll lose the job, when he doesn't deliver expected results. I think the CEO of Enron went to Harvard business. He was not up to par. Anyhow, I hope I'm giving more thorough understanding of my jejune question.

Ok, on the off-chance that this isn't trolling (or that some poor real person reads this thread and takes you seriously):

Your dad is not a lawyer, and your dad is wrong. Jobs like biglaw associate positions are pretty much only offered right out of school. So if your "ladder" includes biglaw jobs, over 90% of students at T4 schools don't even have the chance to get their foot on the first rung. Other competitive jobs in the public service area (like international NGOs, DOJ jobs, high-level PI, etc.) literally throw resumes out if they don't come from a certain pedigree of school.

At any rate, people have been far more polite with you than you deserve. This was a ridiculous question from the start, and you could have answered it yourself by looking at any one of a half-dozen sites and reports that break down employment by school and salary.

Might as well just let him believe what he has his mind set on. Sure, OP, while someone from a tier four school might not get the high-paying, prestigious jobs their first year out of school, since they very likely won't have any job out of law school (how is this not clicking for you?), those grads will surely outshine those dumb HLS kids working at those overrated firms in NYC and those laughable clerkships. This is exactly why you see so many T4 grads as partners at the big firms and as federal judges.

In short, do it, OP. You're on track to have all of the opportunities in the world, provided you pick that T4 instead of a top school.

Well, I would never discourage some to get into thè best school they can. The benefit is mainly with the first job, then school name becomes ancillary especially after fiver years in. Also, the most ambitious people go to Harvard and the like making the school great, not the other way around. Which makes them preferable for their first job. However, after five years or so, I'd imagine the name means less to employers. Like would you hire a first timer from Harvard or a tier four lawyer with five years of directly relevant experience under his belt. Logic says the experienced one. Even if they were both first timers, they both passed the bar, the only difference is that name, hls. So first job, hls gets picked.

[Mockingbird42]

Now I shall list a few bottom tiered people. John Grisham attended University of Mississippi, the law school, currently a tier 3. His net worth is 220 million dollars. Not a good example, I'm sure. Christina Perez, tv judge, from Whittier. Judge Jeanine Pirro, news anchor, from Albany law school, was chairwomen of New York State CDVF. A Westchester court judge--Started as a district attorney. Megyn Kelly also attended Albany law school. But, what am trying to prove? Is that the name of the school ONLY matters when reaching the first job. After that, it's weight diminishes. My intelligence is not relevant in the argument.

I think its telling that your list of "bottom tiered people" include an author, two news anchors, and a TV judge. A law degree from a low-tiered school is an expensive and inefficient way to get a non-law job.

[pancakes3]

What's so hard about the concept that for many TTTT grads their first job is "no job" ?