First job by tier school?

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Pilloriedbrain

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First job by tier school?

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:12 am

So do people really get this excellent job the moment they step out of their hls graduation and recieve their bar passage? And do people who come from tier four get much worse? I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter. Or do they? If you could tell me your tier you graduated and how your first job was like. Thank you.

cavalier1138

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:17 am

Are you seriously asking whether HLS grads have better employment prospects than Ave Maria grads?

You know you can look this information up yourself, right? These schools have employment reports available online and LST posts breakdowns for easy comparison between institutions.

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pancakes3

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby pancakes3 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:51 am

oh dear.

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Clemenceau

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Clemenceau » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:39 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:So do people really get this excellent job the moment they step out of their hls graduation and recieve their bar passage? And do people who come from tier four get much worse? I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter. Or do they? If you could tell me your tier you graduated and how your first job was like. Thank you.


Actually, most hls students have a job long before graduation and then have that employer pay for bar prep. Hth.

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emkay625

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby emkay625 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:16 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:So do people really get this excellent job the moment they step out of their hls graduation and recieve their bar passage? And do people who come from tier four get much worse? I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter. Or do they? If you could tell me your tier you graduated and how your first job was like. Thank you.



Most HLS graduates will have a prestigious job lined up well before graduation that pays 180K (or will enter into a federal clerkship, which pays less but is considered very prestigious and difficult to get and then leads to a job that pays 180K). A significant portion of T4 graduates will not have any legal job at all, even after bar passage. Yes, the difference is very large.

Browse this web site for helpful stats and information: http://www.lstscorereports.com/

As an example, here is the info for Harvard: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/harvard/2015/
And here is the info for California Western: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/calwestern/2015/

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UnicornHunter

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby UnicornHunter » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:20 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:So do people really get this excellent job the moment they step out of their hls graduation and recieve their bar passage? And do people who come from tier four get much worse? I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter. Or do they? If you could tell me your tier you graduated and how your first job was like. Thank you.


This is all you need to know about the legal profession:

Image

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UnicornHunter

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby UnicornHunter » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:21 am

Actually, on second thought, there are two more things. One is that you have to shift the spike at 160 to 180. The other is that there's a third and bigger peak at $0 that's not shown on the graph.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:35 am

Yes, as everyone has said, people who go to HLS have better jobs, and have them lined up earlier, than students at T4 schools. Go to lawschooltransparency.com and compare the job statistics by school. This doesn't mean every HLS student ever ends up with a great job, or that no T4 student can ever get a good job. But as a generalization, it absolutely holds.

I don't know what "I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter" means, but I'm pretty sure it's not correct.

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pancakes3

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby pancakes3 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:36 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I don't know what "I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter" means, but I'm pretty sure it's not correct.


I think OP is under the impression that all schools have 100% BL employement so a 1st year associate coming out of a T4 will be paid the same as a 1st year HLS associate.

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:58 pm

Well, I was hoping for a bit more thorough response for how first jobs after law school are. If I define the "top of the latter" as the law professors, the partners of the biggest firms, federal judges, the ones who won land mark cases and possibly made million, ones who usually work their entire lives before they get there, the term "latter" can be more clearly understood. Should of thought some hot shot law students would get that. Any point, no hls comes out of school and goes straight into that status. In fact the jobs they get are also obtained, granted in lower percentages, by tier four students. In other words, in terms of a latter, as in, everything in first job and thereafter, they all start at the same place. Now, I had hoped for some, possibly experienced,lawyers to respond about the first jobs they encountered. But I guess a few rancorous platitudes will suffice.

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WhyYaCryin

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby WhyYaCryin » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:14 am

What are you blabbering on about?

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magnum_law

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby magnum_law » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:30 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:Well, I was hoping for a bit more thorough response for how first jobs after law school are. If I define the "top of the latter" as the law professors, the partners of the biggest firms, federal judges, the ones who won land mark cases and possibly made million, ones who usually work their entire lives before they get there, the term "latter" can be more clearly understood. Should of thought some hot shot law students would get that. Any point, no hls comes out of school and goes straight into that status. In fact the jobs they get are also obtained, granted in lower percentages, by tier four students. In other words, in terms of a latter, as in, everything in first job and thereafter, they all start at the same place. Now, I had hoped for some, possibly experienced,lawyers to respond about the first jobs they encountered. But I guess a few rancorous platitudes will suffice.
Last edited by magnum_law on Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:38 am

Whose alt is this?

SFSpartan

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby SFSpartan » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:50 am

I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?

Pilloriedbrain

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:54 am

BigZuck wrote:Whose alt is this?


I think the concept behind "latter" was correctly written. And I did ask what the jobs were like, not how much money they make. And I think wonder if firms treat tier 4 associates differently from tier 1.

Pilloriedbrain

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:57 am

BigZuck wrote:Whose alt is this?

Your right the question was misleading and vague.

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:15 am

SFSpartan wrote:I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?


Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:28 am

cavalier1138 wrote:Are you seriously asking whether HLS grads have better employment prospects than Ave Maria grads?

You know you can look this information up yourself, right? These schools have employment reports available online and LST posts breakdowns for easy comparison between institutions.


Cavalier, I misspoke. What I'm trying ask about during the first job, and how their school of graduation effects them during their first. Perhaps theirs a draw back to being a Harvard guy and getting paid more than other people working in a certain firm for years. Or perhaps certain skills come into play like well roused ness. Another thing, the networking at Harvard might not be awesome. Those students distribute all over the country after graduation . And tier four students mostly stay local and are more useful to each other on the local level. On the first job.

Pilloriedbrain

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:30 am

magnum_law wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:Well, I was hoping for a bit more thorough response for how first jobs after law school are. If I define the "top of the latter" as the law professors, the partners of the biggest firms, federal judges, the ones who won land mark cases and possibly made million, ones who usually work their entire lives before they get there, the term "latter" can be more clearly understood. Should of thought some hot shot law students would get that. Any point, no hls comes out of school and goes straight into that status. In fact the jobs they get are also obtained, granted in lower percentages, by tier four students. In other words, in terms of a latter, as in, everything in first job and thereafter, they all start at the same place. Now, I had hoped for some, possibly experienced,lawyers to respond about the first jobs they encountered. But I guess a few rancorous platitudes will suffice.


Quick question; how severe is your mental disability?

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stego

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby stego » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:33 am

I feel uncomfortable making fun of people for their writing on the Internet when English is probably not their first language.

First-year associates at the same big law firm all get paid the same amount no matter which school they went to. But the top law schools' grads are more likely to get those jobs and the T4 grads are more likely to have crappy jobs or no jobs at all.

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby SFSpartan » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:48 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:
SFSpartan wrote:I really can't believe that you are a real person. However, on the off chance that you are, the word you are looking for is ladder, and you are looking at this all wrong. There isn't one career path for LS grads (or one ladder, as it were). Accordingly, HLS and other top schools are desirable because they have a greater number of career paths open to them. Moreover, these jobs tend to be higher paying, and allow grads from top schools to do more sophisticated work in the long term.

To use your (admittedly stilted and ridiculous) analogy - if legal jobs/careers are ladders, than HLS grads have more ladders available. Additionally, the ladders available to HLS grads allow them to climb higher, and are generally more valuable. The farther a school drops in rank, the fewer ladders it has, and the shorter those ladders tend to be. Accordingly, all of the HLS grads get ladders (i.e. they all get jobs), and their ladders generally go super high. The farther down you go to school the less ladders (again, ladders are jobs in this ridiculous analogy) are available, and the ladders tend to be shorter. Does that help you understand why HLS and/or other top schools are more valuable than T4's?


Yes, to answer your question. I should have said what draw backs do they face after they receive their first job. Not before getting that first job. Do they write up a subpoena, and then their boss says, "you're from a tier four aren't you! This makes me sick! Go write it again..." I'd like to know the many subtle instances that your school of graduation effects you on the job?


It isn't so much that where you went to school actually affects you on the job. However, your school is likely to affect the first job you get, and your ability to get "prestigious" jobs in the future. Jobs at large firms that pay Cravath scale are simply more abundant for graduates of top schools. Those jobs also happen to act as a rubber stamp for a lot of the prestigious mid-level and "top of the ladder" jobs that people tend to want down the line. Accordingly, graduates of top schools tend to have more prestigious, more lucrative careers (on average - there will always be outliers) than TTT and T4 grads.

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:54 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yes, as everyone has said, people who go to HLS have better jobs, and have them lined up earlier, than students at T4 schools. Go to lawschooltransparency.com and compare the job statistics by school. This doesn't mean every HLS student ever ends up with a great job, or that no T4 student can ever get a good job. But as a generalization, it absolutely holds.

I don't know what "I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter" means, but I'm pretty sure it's not correct.


I misspelt ladder. My question was poorly formed. The question is after one receives the first jobs, what drawback does the law school someone attended to incur? My father went to MIT on a free ride to receive his graduate degree in nuclear engineering. I said if took the lsat again I'd be able to get into much better schools. He said don't. After you get your first job, you're right back to learning a whole new set of nuts and bolts. You're real goal is to learn those faster. Then master even bigger fish. The school name could hold a guy back in their first entry job. But it's not the name that will launch you up to partner. Perhaps a hls grad presumed more qualified then really is for a job might run into a drawback because he'll lose the job, when he doesn't deliver expected results. I think the CEO of Enron went to Harvard business. He was not up to par. Anyhow, I hope I'm giving more thorough understanding of my jejune question.

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby jnwa » Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:04 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yes, as everyone has said, people who go to HLS have better jobs, and have them lined up earlier, than students at T4 schools. Go to lawschooltransparency.com and compare the job statistics by school. This doesn't mean every HLS student ever ends up with a great job, or that no T4 student can ever get a good job. But as a generalization, it absolutely holds.

I don't know what "I feel they might both start around the same place having the same bottom of the latter" means, but I'm pretty sure it's not correct.


I misspelt ladder. My question was poorly formed. The question is after one receives the first jobs, what drawback does the law school someone attended to incur? My father went to MIT on a free ride to receive his graduate degree in nuclear engineering. I said if took the lsat again I'd be able to get into much better schools. He said don't. After you get your first job, you're right back to learning a whole new set of nuts and bolts. You're real goal is to learn those faster. Then master even bigger fish. The school name could hold a guy back in their first entry job. But it's not the name that will launch you up to partner. Perhaps a hls grad presumed more qualified then really is for a job might run into a drawback because he'll lose the job, when he doesn't deliver expected results. I think the CEO of Enron went to Harvard business. He was not up to par. Anyhow, I hope I'm giving more thorough understanding of my jejune question.


We're telling you that you wont get the chance to fuck up your first job because you probably wont get a first legal job if you go to a t4. Your first instinct was right, your dad is wrong.
Last edited by jnwa on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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heythatslife

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby heythatslife » Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:04 am

stego wrote:I feel uncomfortable making fun of people for their writing on the Internet when English is probably not their first language.

First-year associates at the same big law firm all get paid the same amount no matter which school they went to. But the top law schools' grads are more likely to get those jobs and the T4 grads are more likely to have crappy jobs or no jobs at all.

Where has OP indicated he's ESL? The mistakes he's making are those typical of native speakers poorly trained in writing, and nothing in his posting history suggests he's ESL.

Pilloriedbrain wrote:Cavalier, I misspoke. What I'm trying ask about during the first job, and how their school of graduation effects them during their first. Perhaps theirs a draw back to being a Harvard guy and getting paid more than other people working in a certain firm for years. Or perhaps certain skills come into play like well roused ness. Another thing, the networking at Harvard might not be awesome. Those students distribute all over the country after graduation . And tier four students mostly stay local and are more useful to each other on the local level. On the first job.

Granted, the importance of where you got your degree begins to diminish as you start your job. But there's just such a gigantic gulf in the employability of HLS grads and TTTT grads in the first place, that it's stupid not to consider this fundamental difference.

And dude, the point of networking is to know people in positions that can help you. At schools where half the grads are unemployed right off the bat, they're not being very helpful to each other. Besides, geographical dispersion is more of an advantage than a disadvantage because you can count on knowing someone who can help you wherever you end up going.

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heythatslife

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Re: First job by tier school?

Postby heythatslife » Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:07 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:I misspelt ladder. My question was poorly formed. The question is after one receives the first jobs, what drawback does the law school someone attended to incur? My father went to MIT on a free ride to receive his graduate degree in nuclear engineering. I said if took the lsat again I'd be able to get into much better schools. He said don't. After you get your first job, you're right back to learning a whole new set of nuts and bolts. You're real goal is to learn those faster. Then master even bigger fish. The school name could hold a guy back in their first entry job. But it's not the name that will launch you up to partner. Perhaps a hls grad presumed more qualified then really is for a job might run into a drawback because he'll lose the job, when he doesn't deliver expected results. I think the CEO of Enron went to Harvard business. He was not up to par. Anyhow, I hope I'm giving more thorough understanding of my jejune question.

Your father doesn't know how the legal industry works. Where you start your first legal job determines the trajectory of your legal career. Where you go to school has a huge bearing on what job you can get immediately after graduation. Take the LSAT again and get the best score you can.



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