Law Grads: Did you regret turning down an Ivy? Forum

[silverdoe91]

Okay, but that's not the same as Cornell having NO intellectual property at all.

Also NYU isn't an Ivy.

Really? It's in the T14....What qualifies a school as being an Ivy?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

Oh, I see! That might explain why schools like Harvard and Cornell have clubs but NYU does not...(Or at least I am not aware of one) xD

[JenDarby]

Okay, but that's not the same as Cornell having NO intellectual property at all.

Also NYU isn't an Ivy.

Really? It's in the T14....What qualifies a school as being an Ivy?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

Oh, I see! That might explain why schools like Harvard and Cornell have clubs but NYU does not...(Or at least I am not aware of one) xD

NYU gets admittance to the Yale club!

[silverdoe91]

NYU gets admittance to the Yale club!

Oh, nice! Did you go there for undergrad? I wonder why it's Yale btw and not like Columbia or Harvard...?

[cavalier1138]

Wait.

Have we been arguing about the prestige of an Ivy League school with someone who didn't actually know which schools are considered Ivy League?

[DELG]

Wait.

Have we been arguing about the prestige of an Ivy League school with someone who didn't actually know which schools are considered Ivy League?

For seven pages, good work TLS

[jbagelboy]

Where do you get your information? A 5 second google search got me to this page, which shows that Cornell offers at least 5 different IP-related classes: https://support.law.cornell.edu/Student ... tegory.cfm

Yes, five compared to a much more comprehensive list at both Fordham and Cardozo which includes more specific courses on music, fashion and other types of law, too. I know I will not have time in law school to take all those classes, but having those options would be nice.

Okay, but that's not the same as Cornell having NO intellectual property at all.

Also NYU isn't an Ivy.

Really? It's in the T14....What qualifies a school as being an Ivy?

outed as trolling. this is criminally ignorant.

[Hikikomorist]

Where do you get your information? A 5 second google search got me to this page, which shows that Cornell offers at least 5 different IP-related classes: https://support.law.cornell.edu/Student ... tegory.cfm

Yes, five compared to a much more comprehensive list at both Fordham and Cardozo which includes more specific courses on music, fashion and other types of law, too. I know I will not have time in law school to take all those classes, but having those options would be nice.

Okay, but that's not the same as Cornell having NO intellectual property at all.

Also NYU isn't an Ivy.

Really? It's in the T14....What qualifies a school as being an Ivy?

Holy shit.

[silverdoe91]

It's not uncommon for someone to not know the nuances of what differentiates a T14 from an Ivy; both have prestige so it's easy to confuse. Ultimately I don't think it makes much of a difference anyways, since a top school is a top school.

[Dcc617]

It's not uncommon for someone to not know the nuances of what differentiates a T14 from an Ivy; both have prestige so it's easy to confuse. Ultimately I don't think it makes much of a difference anyways, since a top school is a top school.

Maybe not for the general population, but you're about to borrow tens of thousands of dollars, spend three years of your life, and set up your career path for however long you stay in law. You don't seem to really have a grasp on stuff.

Which is why, again, I'm advising you to retake and reapply. None of your current options seem to set you up optimally for your goals (however nebulous they are). There's no rush dude. Take a god damned year to figure it out.

[bretby]

Where do you get your information? A 5 second google search got me to this page, which shows that Cornell offers at least 5 different IP-related classes: https://support.law.cornell.edu/Student ... tegory.cfm

Yes, five compared to a much more comprehensive list at both Fordham and Cardozo which includes more specific courses on music, fashion and other types of law, too. I know I will not have time in law school to take all those classes, but having those options would be nice.

Choosing based on classes is not a good idea - your elective classes are largely, though not entirely, irrelevant. However, I do think there is something to be said for being able to do externships for both experience and networking during the year if you want to do PI, and Ithaca just will not have anything approaching the same opportunities for that. PI organizations - even "prestigious" ones, value sincere, demonstrated commitment to the cause more than the ranking of your school. If you choose Fordham, you will have to hustle more, but I think for 50k all in it is a defensible choice. Disclaimer: I turned down $ at a number of higher ranked schools to go to Fordham on a full ride for PI, so I am biased.

[Nachoo2019]

Why are there still people giving the silver troll solid advice here? This guys clearly trolling or too thick headed to take advice. This thread(and his last one) are a complete waste of time

a

[pancakes3]

Wait.

Have we been arguing about the prestige of an Ivy League school with someone who didn't actually know which schools are considered Ivy League?

For seven pages, good work TLS

There's 13 more in the original thread making it an even 20 pages.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=263629

[landshoes]

Why are there still people giving the silver troll solid advice here? This guys clearly trolling or too thick headed to take advice. This thread(and his last one) are a complete waste of time

a

Other people are going to search for "entertainment law" or "civil rights." Plus I like giving advice, it's fun.

[4LTsPointingNorth]

Against all odds, I'm going to try.

Silverdoe, if you're being completely honest with yourself, you know that Cornell gives you the best possible post-law school outcomes. As others have pointed out, the "hustle" of scoring various internships/externships/taking certain courses/etc. is something that successful students from the lower-ranking schools you are considering have successfully convinced you really matters. However, the fact is that many other students at those schools participated in all those same activities and were not successful. Your outcomes depend on the name of your school, not the name of the courses you took at that school. Nothing I've said so far is a matter of opinion--these are just ugly truths in the legal world.

That said, as someone who has lived in NYC for many years, I know that leaving the city can be daunting. The pace of life is slower. There's no mass transit. You may not have a car or a even driver's license. You may fear feeling trapped and lonely. These are all hassles that make Cornell seem like an awful choice. But they should not be dispositive in your decision.

In other words, when comparing these factors against which law school you're going to have to list on your resume for the rest of your life, you shouldn't let these additional factors be the primary factors. Going out of your comfort zone for two years (you can cross-study in a NYC school your third year if you're willing to go through the administrative nonsense) is a small price to pay for being able to have more opportunities you truly want, and equally importantly, for having the ability to change your goals halfway through law school and still find opportunities in the future.

With that additional piece said, if you still choose to stay in NYC, choose Fordham over Cardozo, and be totally honest with yourself that you're choosing to spend your next three years in a more comfortable setting at the direct expense of your career options for the rest of your life. Again, this isn't a matter of opinion. Others have linked to the statistics.

If you decide to choose to attend a lesser-ranked NYC school, you're not in the wrong. It's justifiable. You just need to be able to admit to yourself that you are choosing a more limited long-term future in exchange for a more comfortable near-term future. If you aren't able to admit that to yourself, then I sincerely hope that you choose to retake and reapply so that you can end up at NYU or Columbia. Either school seems more likely to lead to the best possible outcome for you.

After reading your combined 20 pages of posts, I really am much too invested in your outcome. I truly wish you the best.

[Dcc617]

So OP, did any of the 30 TLS pages of people telling you to either go to Cornell or else retake and reapply make a difference?

[silverdoe91]

Against all odds, I'm going to try.

Silverdoe, if you're being completely honest with yourself, you know that Cornell gives you the best possible post-law school outcomes. As others have pointed out, the "hustle" of scoring various internships/externships/taking certain courses/etc. is something that successful students from the lower-ranking schools you are considering have successfully convinced you really matters. However, the fact is that many other students at those schools participated in all those same activities and were not successful. Your outcomes depend on the name of your school, not the name of the courses you took at that school. Nothing I've said so far is a matter of opinion--these are just ugly truths in the legal world.

That said, as someone who has lived in NYC for many years, I know that leaving the city can be daunting. The pace of life is slower. There's no mass transit. You may not have a car or a even driver's license. You may fear feeling trapped and lonely. These are all hassles that make Cornell seem like an awful choice. But they should not be dispositive in your decision.

In other words, when comparing these factors against which law school you're going to have to list on your resume for the rest of your life, you shouldn't let these additional factors be the primary factors. Going out of your comfort zone for two years (you can cross-study in a NYC school your third year if you're willing to go through the administrative nonsense) is a small price to pay for being able to have more opportunities you truly want, and equally importantly, for having the ability to change your goals halfway through law school and still find opportunities in the future.

With that additional piece said, if you still choose to stay in NYC, choose Fordham over Cardozo, and be totally honest with yourself that you're choosing to spend your next three years in a more comfortable setting at the direct expense of your career options for the rest of your life. Again, this isn't a matter of opinion. Others have linked to the statistics.

If you decide to choose to attend a lesser-ranked NYC school, you're not in the wrong. It's justifiable. You just need to be able to admit to yourself that you are choosing a more limited long-term future in exchange for a more comfortable near-term future. If you aren't able to admit that to yourself, then I sincerely hope that you choose to retake and reapply so that you can end up at NYU or Columbia. Either school seems more likely to lead to the best possible outcome for you.

After reading your combined 20 pages of posts, I really am much too invested in your outcome. I truly wish you the best.

I sincerely appreciate the time you've taken out to give me some really constructive advice and I see why you would think that Cornell would be the best option for me long-term. However, I am thinking long-term, and I don't want to be stuck in debt for the next 25 years of my life. Sure, the LRAP helps but there are so many caveats that either I would severally be limiting my job options in the future or it would make it a hassle for me to try to take advantage of the LRAP. For example, if I get married in the next 13 years, I will have to file taxes separately, which as I understand it, might be a disadvantage because then I cannot take tax deductions that those filing jointly can usually take. What if I have children? How would that impact the types of tax credits I can get if I am filing separately rather than jointly? These are all questions I have to think about now rather than later, when I realize I have screwed myself over because I wanted to go to a "brand name" school.

I am also thinking about my future because I am worried that if I go to a school like Cornell that is not focused on public interest, and where a small minority of students are interested in public interest careers, much less in NYC, I would greatly diminish my community and networking opportunities for public interest minded folks in the city I want to work in.

Just as well, I don't know how reflective or accurate these reviews from ATL are, but they are pretty foreboding reviews about Cornell:

http://abovethelaw.com/schools/cornell-law/

I'm not quite sure how to include snapshots on here but basically they seem to imply that it is difficult to network in Cornell especially if you want to go into public interest or intellectual property work. They also stress that the school itself is heavily focused on BigLaw so if you are not interested in that area of law you will feel out of place. There is also one review by a student who said that they fudge their employment rates, and s/he had a hard time getting a job so he went to graduate school instead to rack up even more debt. If that's not an accurate portrayal of Cornell then let me know, but it seems like lot of money to pay for a school with those setbacks.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Those are 5 anonymous snippets from the Internet.

What I really want to know is: how do you know Fordham and Cardozo aren't worse? It feels like you're digging up every negative thing about Cornell you can find, you're not doing the same for the other schools, and you're ignoring the employment statistics (which, again, list more people going into public service from Cornell than Fordham).

(Also, the grad school student didn't say he went to grad school because he couldn't get a job, just that Cornell counted him as employed because he went to grad school even though that's not really having a job. Also we don't know when that was done and schools aren't allowed to do that any more.)

[cavalier1138]

I sincerely appreciate the time you've taken out to give me some really constructive advice and I see why you would think that Cornell would be the best option for me long-term. However, I am thinking long-term, and I don't want to be stuck in debt for the next 25 years of my life. Sure, the LRAP helps but there are so many caveats that either I would severally be limiting my job options in the future or it would make it a hassle for me to try to take advantage of the LRAP. For example, if I get married in the next 13 years, I will have to file taxes separately, which as I understand it, might be a disadvantage because then I cannot take tax deductions that those filing jointly can usually take. What if I have children? How would that impact the types of tax credits I can get if I am filing separately rather than jointly? These are all questions I have to think about now rather than later, when I realize I have screwed myself over because I wanted to go to a "brand name" school.

I've started to think that you're beyond help, but in case anyone else is reading this and thinks that you've accurately described LRAP:

Yes, Cornell's program takes your spouse's income into account when calculating LRAP benefits (and yes, there are other schools that offer better LRAP terms for married couples). But the idea that you can't file jointly is ludicrous. Filing jointly just means that you'll get less support from the school, but the tax credits you get will likely offset that. If your spouse makes enough money that Cornell no longer offers LRAP support, then you definitely have enough family income to afford to pay 10% of your salary on your own until you hit that 120-payment mark.

Long story short: you're overreacting. You're creating problems where none exist in an absolutely inexplicable quest to convince yourself that Cornell is a bad choice for you. You want to talk about "severely limiting your job options"? Go to one of the alternative schools you listed, and watch Cornell grads snap up jobs that you can't even get an interview for. That's severely limited.

[Glasseyes]

Regardless where OP ends up, if these are the reasoning skills he or she is bringing to law school, 1L year will be an endless lesson in humiliation.

Follow your dreams, OP!

[Dcc617]

Retake and reapply. There's no reason to go to school if you have such deep seated reservations. A few more LSAT points would be big.

[cannonballer]

Retake and reapply. There's no reason to go to school if you have such deep seated reservations. A few more LSAT points would be big.

Do this. NYU sounds like your dream school, study hard and get in there.

[silverdoe91]

Those are 5 anonymous snippets from the Internet.

What I really want to know is: how do you know Fordham and Cardozo aren't worse? It feels like you're digging up every negative thing about Cornell you can find, you're not doing the same for the other schools, and you're ignoring the employment statistics (which, again, list more people going into public service from Cornell than Fordham).

(Also, the grad school student didn't say he went to grad school because he couldn't get a job, just that Cornell counted him as employed because he went to grad school even though that's not really having a job. Also we don't know when that was done and schools aren't allowed to do that any more.)

I'm considering Cornell's negative traits more than the others because it would cost the most and put me into the most amount of debt, therefore potentially resulting in the greatest amount of buyer's remorse. I think if I went to Cardozo (for free) if I had to endure some bad at least I won't have to also pay loans. For Fordham the loans would be 1/3 the amount from Cornell, so I figure I figure I would have the 1/3 the buyer's remorse.

Just because I put more emphasis on the cost of law school than others on this forum may do so, does not mean there is something wrong with my logical abilities. It just means I have different priorities. For me, the most important thing is to find a job as an attorney that I will enjoy, most likely in the public interest field, that will set me back the least amount of money. Sure, paying 10% of your income for the next ten years of my life is not bad, but paying 0% sounds even better.

So far it seems the only advantage going to a top school would have in the public interest field is easier access to department of Justice and some policy advocacy positions. Other than that, most nonprofits and government organizations seem to have a balanced amount of top and lower ranked schools represented among their employees. Why should I pay 10% of my income for the next ten or twenty years if I can get almost the same outcome by working a little harder and not be in debt at all?

Maybe I'm missing something. I've looked at the employment statistics and the percentage of students who go into public interest & government positions is about the same for Cornell and Cardozo. I know that may be because less Cornell students choose to do go into PI even if they have the opportunity to do so. But that may also be because their loans need to be repaid and they'd rather knock them out in BigLaw than relying on LRAP, which in a way, I think, limits your job options.

[Nachoo2019]

I gotta give it to you OP. You stick to your flame/trolling pretty damn well. We are so far beyond deposit dates you would have absolutely had to make a deposit and decision by now. Props for keeping this going even after you probably deposited at Dozo a month ago.....

[silverdoe91]

I sincerely appreciate the time you've taken out to give me some really constructive advice and I see why you would think that Cornell would be the best option for me long-term. However, I am thinking long-term, and I don't want to be stuck in debt for the next 25 years of my life. Sure, the LRAP helps but there are so many caveats that either I would severally be limiting my job options in the future or it would make it a hassle for me to try to take advantage of the LRAP. For example, if I get married in the next 13 years, I will have to file taxes separately, which as I understand it, might be a disadvantage because then I cannot take tax deductions that those filing jointly can usually take. What if I have children? How would that impact the types of tax credits I can get if I am filing separately rather than jointly? These are all questions I have to think about now rather than later, when I realize I have screwed myself over because I wanted to go to a "brand name" school.

I've started to think that you're beyond help, but in case anyone else is reading this and thinks that you've accurately described LRAP:

Yes, Cornell's program takes your spouse's income into account when calculating LRAP benefits (and yes, there are other schools that offer better LRAP terms for married couples). But the idea that you can't file jointly is ludicrous. Filing jointly just means that you'll get less support from the school, but the tax credits you get will likely offset that. If your spouse makes enough money that Cornell no longer offers LRAP support, then you definitely have enough family income to afford to pay 10% of your salary on your own until you hit that 120-payment mark.

Long story short: you're overreacting. You're creating problems where none exist in an absolutely inexplicable quest to convince yourself that Cornell is a bad choice for you. You want to talk about "severely limiting your job options"? Go to one of the alternative schools you listed, and watch Cornell grads snap up jobs that you can't even get an interview for. That's severely limited.

You're right. There's absolutely going to be jobs that Cornell grads would easily get that a Cardozo grad would not even be considered for. But then there are some jobs where both get hired in exactly the same kind of job, and I feel like I might regret being in debt if I could've gotten a similar job without going into all that debt. :/

Thanks for explaining how that tax stuff works! Sometimes it's difficult to imagine a hypothetical situation that you haven't encountered yet. I guess I keep fixating on the whole loan situation because that is the one thing every law graduate complains about, no matter what school they went to, and I feel like if I assess the potential financial situations I might have in the future it will allow me to make a better decision now.

[cavalier1138]

I guess I keep fixating on the whole loan situation because that is the one thing every law graduate complains about, no matter what school they went to, and I feel like if I assess the potential financial situations I might have in the future it will allow me to make a better decision now.

The difference is that most of the graduates from top schools are complaining about the loans that they are currently paying off. The lower in the rankings you go, the more likely you are to find people who are complaining because they literally cannot get hired as an attorney in order to pay off their loans in the first place.