Mediocre Grades and Yet Got the Firm Job I Wanted, AMA Forum

[star fox]

Your cash flow is far more important than your balance sheet when you are young. Loans from the federal government are not like loans from the Mob, if you can't pay then nothing actually happens and the only loser is the Taxpayer. Loan forgiveness probably will eventually be knocked out for people making BigLaw money, but I think sometimes people here display a poor understanding of finance and make bad decisions like throwing all their discretionary income at Student Loans.

I am not responding to anyone in particular btw.

[xspider]

Your cash flow is far more important than your balance sheet when you are young. Loans from the federal government are not like loans from the Mob, if you can't pay then nothing actually happens and the only loser is the Taxpayer. Loan forgiveness probably will eventually be knocked out for people making BigLaw money, but I think sometimes people here display a poor understanding of finance and make bad decisions like throwing all their discretionary income at Student Loans.

I am not responding to anyone in particular btw.

Just curious, do you think younger people should save that extra money for a house, fund more retirement, or just enjoying life(not limited to only those options)?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just would like to hear more of your opinion on this.

[CommanderKeen]

Your cash flow is far more important than your balance sheet when you are young. Loans from the federal government are not like loans from the Mob, if you can't pay then nothing actually happens and the only loser is the Taxpayer. Loan forgiveness probably will eventually be knocked out for people making BigLaw money, but I think sometimes people here display a poor understanding of finance and make bad decisions like throwing all their discretionary income at Student Loans.

I am not responding to anyone in particular btw.

Just curious, do you think younger people should save that extra money for a house, fund more retirement, or just enjoying life(not limited to only those options)?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just would like to hear more of your opinion on this.

lololo

[lawschoolbound13]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

[BigZuck]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

At this risk of being over the top discouraging: This is immature and silly

[lawschoolbound13]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

At this risk of being over the top discouraging: This is immature and silly

Most people posting on this site can be immature and silly. I don't feel bad.

[cavalier1138]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

You hope to be six figures in debt and unable to pay it off on a small-firm salary?

The OP on this thread isn't even in a smaller firm in the sense you seem to mean it. They're at a boutique firm for entertainment law, and they actually have a pretty good starting salary for what they're doing. The only catch is that they're in more debt than that salary can realistically service at present, which was what they were warned about 4 years ago.

And just like the OP, I'm betting that the "retake or don't go" advice you got was due to you taking on a lot of debt at a school that won't get you a job where you can pay off said debt. So again, not "T14 or bust" or "biglaw or bust".

Edit: Also, I'm a little bemused by your assertions that you are a rising 2L who used a different username on this site in the past when I see threads like this in your post history: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6#p8377724

Incidentally, none of the posts there said that full tuition scholarships at either UIUC or IU were bad ideas, just that you could probably do a lot better with the vague goals you had laid out at the time.

From your history, it seems like you're a rising 2L just below the top third of your class and a 0L who doesn't know how loan disbursement works. Schrodinger's Law Student?

[A. Nony Mouse]

But the 0L loan disbursement question is from over a year ago, so I'm pretty sure they are a rising 2L. No dead/not dead cats here. And they may well have posted earlier choosing threads under a different name.

[cavalier1138]

But the 0L loan disbursement question is from over a year ago, so I'm pretty sure they are a rising 2L. No dead/not dead cats here. And they may well have posted earlier choosing threads under a different name.

Oh, my bad. I misread the year.

Nevertheless, unless they posted a radically different choosing thread before the one in their post history, they were not told what they're claiming here.

[A. Nony Mouse]

But the 0L loan disbursement question is from over a year ago, so I'm pretty sure they are a rising 2L. No dead/not dead cats here. And they may well have posted earlier choosing threads under a different name.

Oh, my bad. I misread the year.

Nevertheless, unless they posted a radically different choosing thread before the one in their post history, they were not told what they're claiming here.

Oh, yeah, I think they probably got reasonable advice.

[lawschoolbound13]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

You hope to be six figures in debt and unable to pay it off on a small-firm salary?

The OP on this thread isn't even in a smaller firm in the sense you seem to mean it. They're at a boutique firm for entertainment law, and they actually have a pretty good starting salary for what they're doing. The only catch is that they're in more debt than that salary can realistically service at present, which was what they were warned about 4 years ago.

And just like the OP, I'm betting that the "retake or don't go" advice you got was due to you taking on a lot of debt at a school that won't get you a job where you can pay off said debt. So again, not "T14 or bust" or "biglaw or bust".

Edit: Also, I'm a little bemused by your assertions that you are a rising 2L who used a different username on this site in the past when I see threads like this in your post history: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6#p8377724

Incidentally, none of the posts there said that full tuition scholarships at either UIUC or IU were bad ideas, just that you could probably do a lot better with the vague goals you had laid out at the time.

From your history, it seems like you're a rising 2L just below the top third of your class and a 0L who doesn't know how loan disbursement works. Schrodinger's Law Student?

Lol. Law students think they know everything because you make a few posts online. I'm a rising 2L at a T25 on a full-tuition scholarship. I'm not too worried about the fact that I missed the Top 1/3rd by a point. Thanks for taking the time to look at my "history." It's quite amusing.

Edit: My bad, you're not even a law student yet. I should say "people who post on this site" rather than "law students."

[cavalier1138]

Lol. Law students think they know everything because you make a few posts online. I'm a rising 2L at a T25 on a full-tuition scholarship. I'm not too worried about the fact that I missed the Top 1/3rd by a point. Thanks for taking the time to look at my "history." It's quite amusing.

Edit: My bad, you're not even a law student yet. I should say "people who post on this site" rather than "law students."

Since we're trading personal likes/dislikes, I find it hilarious when anyone makes claims which are demonstrably untrue.

[BigZuck]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

What, specifically, from your choosing thread did you find objectionable?

[lawschoolbound13]

Lol. Law students think they know everything because you make a few posts online. I'm a rising 2L at a T25 on a full-tuition scholarship. I'm not too worried about the fact that I missed the Top 1/3rd by a point. Thanks for taking the time to look at my "history." It's quite amusing.

Edit: My bad, you're not even a law student yet. I should say "people who post on this site" rather than "law students."

Since we're trading personal likes/dislikes, I find it hilarious when anyone makes claims which are demonstrably untrue.

That's nice. Every thing I've said is true whether or not you want to believe it is another story. At the end of the day, it doesn't mean shit to me if cavalier believes what I say on this website.

[lawschoolbound13]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

What, specifically, from your choosing thread did you find objectionable?

I have no desire to dig through my old TLS account to find anything "objectionable." All I said was people on this site can be discouraging. It's no secret. Since you seem to invest much of your time and energy on this stupid site, perhaps you can find "objectionable" comments yourself.

[unlicensedpotato]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

Maybe you should wait until you have the job...

[A. Nony Mouse]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

What, specifically, from your choosing thread did you find objectionable?

I have no desire to dig through my old TLS account to find anything "objectionable." All I said was people on this site can be discouraging. It's no secret. Since you seem to invest much of your time and energy on this stupid site, perhaps you can find "objectionable" comments yourself.

But advice being discouraging doesn't make it wrong or bad advice.

[lawschoolbound13]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

Maybe you should wait until you have the job...

Why is everyone so disturbed by my comment? It's perfectly okay to see a comment you don't agree with and simply ignore it. I'm not being cocky or arrogant or assuming ANYTHING about my future, but no one here seems to "wait" to open their mouth about job prospects, so I feel no different in thinking I can get a job at a small law firm after graduation.

[lawschoolbound13]

OP is the single greatest person I have ever seen on this site. Let's be best friends. You could not be more right in saying people are over the top discouraging on this site. I also used a different username when applying for schools and heard a lot of "retake or don't go" comments too. The assumption on here seems to be you MUST want biglaw because who doesn't want to die at their desk am I right? I'm a rising 2L at a T25 hoping for a smaller firm job post-graduation as well. I hope I share your same story once I'm done. Good luck and congratulations!

What, specifically, from your choosing thread did you find objectionable?

I have no desire to dig through my old TLS account to find anything "objectionable." All I said was people on this site can be discouraging. It's no secret. Since you seem to invest much of your time and energy on this stupid site, perhaps you can find "objectionable" comments yourself.

But advice being discouraging doesn't make it wrong or bad advice.

That's correct. I never said it was.

[Johann]

Wait so is IBR/PAYE a bad thing now? I thought we were all about taking advantage of those programs here?

Why anyone wouldn't take advantage of those programs is beyond my grasp. I can pay it off in another way, but why would I do that? I often joke that I'm banking on the government cancelling all student loan debt by the time 30 years rolls around because the economy is going to shit the bed because of the system we've developed.

Yeah PAYE and REPAYE reduce the risk of law school exponentially and are basically free money to 90% of law grads after graduation. It's not surprising that a bunch of risk-averse people who aren't very good with numbers would rail against it even though it's objectively the right decision for almost everyone.

[Johann]

I wanted to get mad cause you called me a liar, but then you used silly goose and I can't stay mad at you. I didn't look for an example, if I'm being honest. I would, but that's going to be a lot of work.

Why would it be a lot of work to find one example if it's such a prevalent sentiment?

it's a pretty prevalent statement on TLS that you either (1) must get T14 or (2) get regional for free. For people that don't hit high 160s on all 3 of their takes, TLS always says dont go dont go you cant get biglaw!! even when the person doesnt care about biglaw.

The calculus should be more like:
(1) Do you want to be a lawyer (you shouldn't it sucks)?
(2) Are you stuck in a career with low earning potential?
(3) Have you taken the LSAT 3 times?

If yes to all 3, go to the best law school you got into/where you want to work or the cheapest option, whichever makes it easier for you to sleep at night.

The best TLS jumping the shark was when everyone but me told a guy to risk his life and go to the army rather than go to Hastings which is a pretty decent law school. That was when I lost any respect for the people on this site at knowing the fuck about anything that doesn't concern T14.

[Johann]

Is the AMA still going on? My question: You can look at the lst for your school to see both the average scholarship and the employment numbers for your school so you know both the debt load and the typical employment result for a student at your school. Why do you keep mentioning that your result justifies your choice? If I put 2 bullets into a revolver, spun the chamber, and fired, should I consider it a good decision to have done so if I can look back and see that I didn't die? The 2 bullets would be assuming 33% unemployment rate and tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt the average student at your school has. Feel free to add a bullet to this analogy if it is closer to 50% unemployment. To make the analogy a little better for you, you can even bet that if you have it on a particular empty chamber you win a good job. Not only did you live, you were one of the 16% who got a good job out of it. It just seems gross to brag that you weren't destroyed and that others should follow your steps.

Lifetime investment (30 years or more). Judging it at 10 months is stupid.

[Johann]

I agree that individual success stories can be useful. That's why I included my story of getting one of these rare outcomes with my post saying "I did it and so can you!" threads are misguided. While anecdotes are helpful to show it is possible, too often people try and use these threads to show how the general TLS advice is bad. Just because it ended up working out for someone does not mean that TLS gave bad advice. That's why you've got to look at total employment numbers when giving general, risk-adverse advice.

Only if you want to be risk averse though. That's what TLS doesn't get. Some peopel might have higher thresholds for risk than them. Law school is a risk/investment in yourself, which is often the best type of risk to take because you control most of the variables. The highest rewards plays are usually the highest risk plays; that's how it always goes - to compensate someone for the high risk, there has to be a high reward.

Smart people that can get into T14s have better options than dumb people (on average) that can only get into Hastings and American. The person that goes to American to biglaw then has a much higher payout because the salary they might have gotten before was like 40k. Or the solo that graduates from John Marshall and starts a personal injury firm making millions.

Giving risk averse advice is usually not the best advice, just FYI for people to keep in mind.

[Johann]

Acting like OP has a poorly paying job is stupid. For many, entertainment law is a unicorn job. Also, OP is at a smaller firm which likely means he will be more likely to make partner and less likely to burn out. I guarantee you a lot of Biglaw people would jump ship to OP's job after a couple of years if possible.

Please, please, please, please, please show me where anyone said that the OP has a poorly paying job. The OP has a great job.

And they also are not able to service their debt with the job they have. Their debt will actually increase under IBR. Now, the OP seems comfortable with basically letting that stay the same for the next 30 years, but many people would not be comfortable in that same situation.

This has nothing to do with the relative quality of the OP's job. I plan on going in to PI, so I'm fully planning on earning much less than they do for pretty much my whole career. But the difference is that I'm going in with LRAP/PSLF support to help pay off the amount of debt I'm taking on. The OP doesn't have that safety net, and that's exactly why they were told that taking that debt on was a bad idea three years ago.

You realize that increasing debt is irrelevant when you only have to pay 10% of last year's taxable income right? He does have a safety net - PAYE and REPAYE.

[A. Nony Mouse]

People don't say "don't go, you can't get biglaw!," they say "don't go if you're going to end up with debt you can't pay off." Being willing to ride REPAYE for 20 years or however long is still a daunting prospect for a lot of people.

I actually agree that risk is a personal thing and some people have a much higher tolerance for it than others. I kinda don't agree with the idea that going American --> biglaw or John Marshall --> PI is a bigger payoff, though, because someone who can succeed in doing those things probably did have the ability to have other options. Succeeding in PI, for instance, requires a lot of qualities that would probably get you success in other fields, too. Someone who can hustle for a good job out of a TTT probably could hustle into something decent elsewhere.

(Where PI = personal injury, just to be clear.)