Is it possible to actually use law to improve the world? Passionate 0L PLEASE HELP! Forum

[1styearlateral]

Oh good I thought this kid was gone for good.

Keep the good times comin'.

[Gifted Hands]

I mean, ambulance chasers at least make a difference in poor people's lives. That's more fulfilling than padding the pockets of fortune 500 execs.
And if you're a businessman, then there's a lot of $$ in it too

[Dads707]

This wouldn't be the exclusive purpose of an MBA, but running a non-profit is literally no different than running a business. Are you telling me that an MBA serves no purpose for those wishing to start businesses? If so, then perhaps I'm not the one who has 'wildly mismanaged' expectations lmao.

MBA here.

An MBA does more to teach you how an established business operates than how to start one yourself. While the business-saavy may be able to take the pieces from the program and apply them to their vision of a start-up, this ability typically has more to do with prior experience and ability than the degree. The degree is a high-level view of how mid-sized to large-sized businesses operate and how managers and executives are to use their tools to meet their organizational goals. Most MBA candidates come in with significant work experience (read: management/executive-level).

If you get biglaw for 5 years and gross $1M assuming taxes, student loans, rent, etc. call it a net of $500k (which I think is very generous), hire 5 entry-level attorneys at $40k/yr, one accountant at $60k/year, before operating costs, rent, electricity and variable expenses you'll be out of money before the third year (where's your revenue? when are you going to have time to fundraise while in biglaw?). 3 years law school, 5 years biglaw, 2 years with an unsustainable burn rate, you're 10 years older, broke with a defunct non-profit to your name.

Rather than trying to start your own non-profit, why not try to drive change in an existing organization. You could use those 5 years you've allocated to biglaw to learn your trade (PD/Non-Profits). This would put the MBA to better use as you have the necessary assets already stood-up and operational. If after all that you still want to strike out on your own, you can make use of the fundraising connections you will have made in the field as you'll likely encounter many more of those folks who are already investing in this field than you would have in biglaw. You'll have to share some of the credit, but this path seems much more feasible.

[MyNameIsntJames]

I think psu2016 has a real point, though.

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

It wouldn't be government run and the motives behind it would be different. I'm not familiar with current legal aid programs, but I know that most public defenders are sort of working in conjunction with the court and the State's Attorneys to try to resolve the matter in the quickest way possible and move it through the dockets, rather than pursuing the course of action that will lead to the greatest outcome for the defendant.

I think this is kind of unfair to public defenders, though. It's really hard to evaluate this from the outside when you're not legally trained (which I realize is part of the problem, but is also unavoidable unless you want defendants to be able to get a JD to deal with the legal system). What looks like working with the court and SAs often *is* pursuing the course of action that will lead to the greatest outcome for the defendant. Our legal system is adversarial, sure, but that doesn't mean that an attorney who fights the prosecutor at every turn is really going to get the best outcome. Part of the problem is that what a defendant wants, emotionally, isn't always what gets the best results, objectively, and I'm not sure the problems inherent in negotiating that tension would go away if you're in a non-profit rather than a PD.

We would also be a lot more engaged with the defendants than Public Defenders are. Generally, public defenders don't really meet face to face with their clients until the day of the trial or preliminary hearing and usually that interaction is brief. I want people to feel and know that they're actually being guided through the process instead of just thrown into some streamlined, mechanical system that just churns out results and doesn't care from there. More or less, I want to provide the private lawyer experience for the public defender cost. But that's why this has to be a non-profit foundation because we'll more or less have to run on ourselves. I have no idea how I would fund this project at this point, but hopefully I can build enough connections and willing philanthropists, investors and good-hearted lawyers to where this can become a reality in some way.

My first question is, when you say "generally" above, do you actually mean generally or do you mean based on your experience? And meeting someone for the first time at preliminary hearing is very very different from meeting them for the first time at trial.

I guess my question really is, how logistically will you ensure that the structural things that lead PDs to act in a certain way won't apply to your foundation as well? Will you have strict limits on caseloads? How will you determine who gets served, in that case? Will you be able to change how the court/state's attorneys approach cases?

And why do you think that private lawyers are better? There's an argument that PDs don't have the kind of financial motives that private attorneys have, so they can actually offer better assistance. Private attorneys depend on running up the hours worked and charging their clients for that. You don't have that economic factor when the government provides your salary.

There probably are other legal aid programs that offer similar services, but it can never hurt to have more right? I'm not necessarily looking to innovate anything. I just want to contribute to society through law in an independent fashion that is separate from the government. Perhaps we take the load off the local PD office and those guys a little bit and it allows the system to run more cohesively as a whole on the defendant side of things.

To be clear, I don't mean to suggest PDs aren't overburdened (they clearly are) or that there isn't any need for more low-cost legal services, so I'm not trying to say you shouldn't do this. I just think you need to think a little more about why the system is how it is and what you could really do to get outside that system. One example I know of that sounds a little like what you're interested in is http://openlegalservices.org/. (I agree with the skepticism about the value of an MBA, though.) And frankly if this is what you're really interested in, I think you'd be much better served working as PD for a number of years in whatever region you want to serve, to see the criminal justice system there from the inside and best figure out how to address the problems you see. Big law isn't going to give you relevant experience and I really don't think just saving up for 5 years of biglaw is going to enable you to fund a program - you will need to work on fundraising and getting donors and regular income streams, rather than just starting with your own nest egg as capital.

I know I'm replying to this thread absurdly late and that's because I dealt with a personal tragedy recently that required me to remove distractions (internet, television, social media) in order to appropriately grieve the loss and still maintain some semblance of focus on the LSAT.


More to the point: Thank you for your feedback. The questions you ask are thought provoking and your suggestions are reasonable and intuitive. I truthfully don't have an answer to all of the questions that you have asked, but I can say that I will strongly mull this post over. You did not write to me in vain, sir and I thank you for taking the time to dissect this issue with me.

[MyNameIsntJames]

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

We would also be a lot more engaged with the defendants than Public Defenders are. Generally, public defenders don't really meet face to face with their clients until the day of the trial or preliminary hearing and usually that interaction is brief. I want people to feel and know that they're actually being guided through the process instead of just thrown into some streamlined, mechanical system that just churns out results and doesn't care from there.

A good start for this little pipe dream would perhaps be not shitting on the entire industry who will be your biggest allies and mentors.

Go be a dumbass troll somewhere else. This is actually a serious thread.

Yeah, as mentioned, you need to spend some time actually working with PDs instead of being one of their clients. You have absolutely no idea of why your PD conducted your case the way they did. But regardless of how they handled it, if you want to start a foundation like the type you mentioned, you (like everyone else doing the exact same thing) will be working closely with PDs and legal aid offices, because they're the first line of defense for indigent clients.

So if you get nothing else out of this thread, realize that going to law school will likely inform you about why PDs don't waste much time educating their clients about the ins and outs of the American legal system (hint: it's really complicated, and they're overworked) and spend more time actually working for their clients.

Fair enough.

[MyNameIsntJames]

Yeah these already exist. Good luck fundraising.

This wouldn't be the exclusive purpose of an MBA, but running a non-profit is literally no different than running a business

This is false.

1) Non-profits are typically 501 (c) corps. They are subject to an entirely different tax compliance regime.

2) While startups do engage in fund-raising, they go through a progression of family /angel investors / VC / PE in multiple stages. The impetus for subsequent iterations of investment centers on a proof-of-concept (i.e. the widget being sold is profitable and the target needs growth equity or the firm is a tech service that has massive growth/ network potential and needs additional funding to continue that trend).

By contrast, you're trying to start a non-profit that has no long-term payoff (financially speaking). Hiring five attorneys will cost somewhere north of $200,000 per year. By contrast, your potential clients will be on food stamps. Subsequently, you will be joining millions of other philanthropic organizations in competing for cash annually.

Who is the donor going to pick, the organization that helps the poor children with cancer, or the organization who helps acquit known gang affiliates?

Yes, that is not a fair characterization. But, you'd be lying to yourself if you don't think that stream of thought runs through people's minds when they look to make donations.

But, I forgot. You're getting into Harvard and going to be slaying massive amounts of babeage. You won't be able to see your PD dreams through the sweaty mass of bottles and models.

Pretty legitimate post actually, I didn't see it that way. I'll have to mull that over as well.

[MyNameIsntJames]

You'd be in the position of asking donors to fund your outfit instead of other, more established, more connected organizations like this that already exist in every major city. And if you want to give every client personalized care like that, you're not going to be able to handle many cases.

It's not clear from your post if you would just run the organization, or if you would actually be a practicing defense attorney. If the latter, 5 years of big law is not going to prepare you in the least for indigent criminal defense. If the former, then you have the added problem of trying to convince donors to pay you a salary to be the "CEO" of a 3 or 4 attorney aid organization.

If you're really serious about this kind of work (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, in spite of your post history), you'd be much better off trying to work for a top-flight PD service (ex. the Bronx Defenders) than you would striking out on your own.

I see. But how does someone 'run' a Bronx Defenders like organization? Surely someone has to start these organizations right? That's what I want to know.

[MyNameIsntJames]

You'd be in the position of asking donors to fund your outfit instead of other, more established, more connected organizations like this that already exist in every major city. And if you want to give every client personalized care like that, you're not going to be able to handle many cases.

It's not clear from your post if you would just run the organization, or if you would actually be a practicing defense attorney. If the latter, 5 years of big law is not going to prepare you in the least for indigent criminal defense. If the former, then you have the added problem of trying to convince donors to pay you a salary to be the "CEO" of a 3 or 4 attorney aid organization.

If you're really serious about this kind of work (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, in spite of your post history), you'd be much better off trying to work for a top-flight PD service (ex. the Bronx Defenders) than you would striking out on your own.

⬆This. As an African American male, I understand where you are coming from. But I do not know if being in big law will prepare you for this. You would have to be very strategic in law school, go to a t14 that has the Innocence project and then get hired at a law firm that may let you continue some of your cases pro bono. Then maybe after five years you could have the criminal law experience to go out on your own but that is still ignoring all of the logistical issues before. If your goal is to have personal one on one interactions with clients in poverty but not serve the masses like public defenders, then you would almost be better off trying to stick with a large firm with a commitment to pro bono work.

Thank you for this. And it seems that the general consensus is don't go to BigLaw even if that means saving up a few hundred K to start your own thing afterward, which is fair.

My goal isn't so much to have one on one interactions, but to give clients more peace of mind in some way? Not sure how I can do that. I just know that personally I've had experience hiring a private lawyer and hiring a public defender. I've also worked with a public defender and I've worked in a private practice (albeit not criminal law). I've noticed the biggest difference between a PD and private attorneys is that if a client has a question or wants to reach their lawyers, its exponentially easier to do so with private counsel. I'm not saying that we'll be invested in each criminal case as if we're doing a Cochran-OJ type of deal, I just want us to be at least somewhat more accessible than your typical PD is.


And that's not to slam PDs. I understand a great deal of them are extraordinarily intelligent and dedicate their lives to this work because they are just as passionate as I. I know that whatever shortcomings I have announced of a PD is a result of their circumstance and nature of their job, rather than lack of ambition or some other inherent negative characteristic.

The reason I brought that up was to swerve the inevitable, "Well why don't you just become a PD?" question that I would be bound to be barraged with had I not addressed in the initial post.

[MyNameIsntJames]

OP, the solution to the pressure PDs have to push cases through is to fund those very same PD offices so that they can hire more lawyers and reduce their caseload. New Orleans Public Defender has some of the most qualified lawyers in the country working for them, among them a Harvard Law Review EIC. But their caseload is crushing, so they triage. Meanwhile, in my office, we've actually got it fairly cushy from the caseload perspective, and yet we spend a ton of time getting buddy-buddy with the prosecutor... because it works, and it gets our clients what they want. And if they want a trial, because we have enough time to prep the case effectively, the client will get their trial.

Thank you for that.

It almost sounds like there's genuinely nothing I can do beyond the efforts of folks who are already doing the same thing. Surely with all the brilliant minds of TLS+law world, critical thinkers in general, there must exist some sort of solution to elevate the quality of justice in America beyond what we're already doing, right?

[MyNameIsntJames]

This wouldn't be the exclusive purpose of an MBA, but running a non-profit is literally no different than running a business. Are you telling me that an MBA serves no purpose for those wishing to start businesses? If so, then perhaps I'm not the one who has 'wildly mismanaged' expectations lmao.

MBA here.

An MBA does more to teach you how an established business operates than how to start one yourself. While the business-saavy may be able to take the pieces from the program and apply them to their vision of a start-up, this ability typically has more to do with prior experience and ability than the degree. The degree is a high-level view of how mid-sized to large-sized businesses operate and how managers and executives are to use their tools to meet their organizational goals. Most MBA candidates come in with significant work experience (read: management/executive-level).

If you get biglaw for 5 years and gross $1M assuming taxes, student loans, rent, etc. call it a net of $500k (which I think is very generous), hire 5 entry-level attorneys at $40k/yr, one accountant at $60k/year, before operating costs, rent, electricity and variable expenses you'll be out of money before the third year (where's your revenue? when are you going to have time to fundraise while in biglaw?). 3 years law school, 5 years biglaw, 2 years with an unsustainable burn rate, you're 10 years older, broke with a defunct non-profit to your name.

Rather than trying to start your own non-profit, why not try to drive change in an existing organization. You could use those 5 years you've allocated to biglaw to learn your trade (PD/Non-Profits). This would put the MBA to better use as you have the necessary assets already stood-up and operational. If after all that you still want to strike out on your own, you can make use of the fundraising connections you will have made in the field as you'll likely encounter many more of those folks who are already investing in this field than you would have in biglaw. You'll have to share some of the credit, but this path seems much more feasible.

Out of everything in this thread, this post was probably the most helpful. Thank you.

[tomwatts]

OP, the solution to the pressure PDs have to push cases through is to fund those very same PD offices so that they can hire more lawyers and reduce their caseload. New Orleans Public Defender has some of the most qualified lawyers in the country working for them, among them a Harvard Law Review EIC. But their caseload is crushing, so they triage. Meanwhile, in my office, we've actually got it fairly cushy from the caseload perspective, and yet we spend a ton of time getting buddy-buddy with the prosecutor... because it works, and it gets our clients what they want. And if they want a trial, because we have enough time to prep the case effectively, the client will get their trial.

Thank you for that.

It almost sounds like there's genuinely nothing I can do beyond the efforts of folks who are already doing the same thing. Surely with all the brilliant minds of TLS+law world, critical thinkers in general, there must exist some sort of solution to elevate the quality of justice in America beyond what we're already doing, right?

It's unlikely that you can be the white knight bringing complete justice to an unjust world, but you can definitely have a career trying to push things in the right direction. Some PDs are really great, and some are terrible. Just becoming a good and conscientious PD yourself could make a pretty big difference to a large number of people over the course of your career. Many PD offices tend to be underfunded. Getting involved in the policy process to get more funding to PDs — so that offices with impossible caseloads can hire more attorneys and make the caseloads somewhat less impossible, for starters — could make a difference. Starting some sort of nonprofit that provides high-quality, low-cost (or possibly zero-cost) services to some defendants could make a difference, although, as others have noted, that's a tough road.

You're not going to change the entire criminal justice system by yourself. But you can change some people's lives significantly for the better, if you go about it in the right ways.

(This is kind of how it is with most societal problems. If one well-intentioned person could fix it, it'd probably already be fixed.)

[Pomeranian]

Based on stats of people who come in wanting to do PI, (unless you get a large scholarship) you will probably end up in some soul crushing corporate job with insanely long hours and little time to actually help people. I admire your noble spirit though.

[cavalier1138]

Based on stats of people who come in wanting to do PI, (unless you get a large scholarship) you will probably end up in some soul crushing corporate job with insanely long hours and little time to actually help people. I admire your noble spirit though.

That doesn't sound like it's at all accurate for any law schools with decent LRAP.

[tomwatts]

Based on stats of people who come in wanting to do PI, (unless you get a large scholarship) you will probably end up in some soul crushing corporate job with insanely long hours and little time to actually help people. I admire your noble spirit though.

That doesn't sound like it's at all accurate for any law schools with decent LRAP.

I can't find the statistics now, but I saw statistics once for HLS, which has a very good LRAP. The majority of students who came to HLS wanting to do public interest ended up working in biglaw (or midlaw) rather than PI.

Now, there definitely was a minority of students who came in intending to do PI and then did PI, and it wasn't a tiny minority — I think it was around 40% of the students who intended to do PI as 0Ls. But it was a minority.

I think the same is true at other top schools.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The biglaw route (if available at your school) is hard to escape, especially because it's the path of least resistance and gets you a job long before graduation, and can also be the path to some kinds of PI. I also suspect there's a difference based on prior experience - if someone spends 5 years working for (say) immigrants' rights and researches their career path and realizes a JD will get them where they want to go, I suspect they're more likely to stay PI than someone who decides to go to law school K-JD and says they want to do PI because it sounds cool and more consistent with their view of what they want to do in the world, but doesn't have a clear sense of what legal work is even like. (Not meant as a crack at K-JDs, just an example.)

[MyNameIsntJames]

OP, the solution to the pressure PDs have to push cases through is to fund those very same PD offices so that they can hire more lawyers and reduce their caseload. New Orleans Public Defender has some of the most qualified lawyers in the country working for them, among them a Harvard Law Review EIC. But their caseload is crushing, so they triage. Meanwhile, in my office, we've actually got it fairly cushy from the caseload perspective, and yet we spend a ton of time getting buddy-buddy with the prosecutor... because it works, and it gets our clients what they want. And if they want a trial, because we have enough time to prep the case effectively, the client will get their trial.

Thank you for that.

It almost sounds like there's genuinely nothing I can do beyond the efforts of folks who are already doing the same thing. Surely with all the brilliant minds of TLS+law world, critical thinkers in general, there must exist some sort of solution to elevate the quality of justice in America beyond what we're already doing, right?

It's unlikely that you can be the white knight bringing complete justice to an unjust world, but you can definitely have a career trying to push things in the right direction. Some PDs are really great, and some are terrible. Just becoming a good and conscientious PD yourself could make a pretty big difference to a large number of people over the course of your career. Many PD offices tend to be underfunded. Getting involved in the policy process to get more funding to PDs — so that offices with impossible caseloads can hire more attorneys and make the caseloads somewhat less impossible, for starters — could make a difference. Starting some sort of nonprofit that provides high-quality, low-cost (or possibly zero-cost) services to some defendants could make a difference, although, as others have noted, that's a tough road.

You're not going to change the entire criminal justice system by yourself. But you can change some people's lives significantly for the better, if you go about it in the right ways.

(This is kind of how it is with most societal problems. If one well-intentioned person could fix it, it'd probably already be fixed.)

Great points. I guess the take away here though would be that I can't really do much independently to help outside of becoming a PD though right? I'm not sure what career would allow me to singularly pursue lobbying for policy changes to give greater relief to PD offices.

[MyNameIsntJames]

Based on stats of people who come in wanting to do PI, (unless you get a large scholarship) you will probably end up in some soul crushing corporate job with insanely long hours and little time to actually help people. I admire your noble spirit though.

That doesn't sound like it's at all accurate for any law schools with decent LRAP.

What is LRAP?

[lymenheimer]

What is LRAP?

seriously?... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lrap

[MyNameIsntJames]

The biglaw route (if available at your school) is hard to escape, especially because it's the path of least resistance and gets you a job long before graduation, and can also be the path to some kinds of PI. I also suspect there's a difference based on prior experience - if someone spends 5 years working for (say) immigrants' rights and researches their career path and realizes a JD will get them where they want to go, I suspect they're more likely to stay PI than someone who decides to go to law school K-JD and says they want to do PI because it sounds cool and more consistent with their view of what they want to do in the world, but doesn't have a clear sense of what legal work is even like. (Not meant as a crack at K-JDs, just an example.)

I see exactly what you mean. I don't want to give up on this dream though and hopefully there's some way for me to make it happen, assuming I get into a school of that nature.

[tomwatts]

Great points. I guess the take away here though would be that I can't really do much independently to help outside of becoming a PD though right? I'm not sure what career would allow me to singularly pursue lobbying for policy changes to give greater relief to PD offices.

There is such a thing as public interest lobbying, and some people in that area do work on "access to justice" issues. But it's definitely a niche field; there aren't many jobs, and I don't think it pays very well, either. Being a PD often doesn't pay very well, for that matter, but there are more jobs available, at least.

It might be worth doing some Googling/talking to law schools/talking to lawyers around "access to justice" and related topics. People who know about this field probably could tell you a lot about what's going on in it.

[Auxilio]

I'm curious (going back a bit) why you think it is more efficient for you to start a second small foundation that provides legal aid than just join/donate to another small/medium/large foundation that provides legal aid?

Unless it is literally impossible to find a similar organization that will be better run than one that is led by someone with no relevant experience (you) economy of scale etc. strongly favours just putting your money.effort into helping an already existing organization.

The only reason I can think of for your insistence in this thread (although you do seem to be relenting a bit) that you start your own despite others existing is vanity and pride trumping desire to most effectively help people.

[Nebby]

Based on stats of people who come in wanting to do PI, (unless you get a large scholarship) you will probably end up in some soul crushing corporate job with insanely long hours and little time to actually help people. I admire your noble spirit though.

That doesn't sound like it's at all accurate for any law schools with decent LRAP.

I can't find the statistics now, but I saw statistics once for HLS, which has a very good LRAP. The majority of students who came to HLS wanting to do public interest ended up working in biglaw (or midlaw) rather than PI.

Now, there definitely was a minority of students who came in intending to do PI and then did PI, and it wasn't a tiny minority — I think it was around 40% of the students who intended to do PI as 0Ls. But it was a minority.

I think the same is true at other top schools.

Most people who want PI as 0L have no idea how to get PI, so I'm not surprised half of them opt for the easier route of biglaw once they realize there are real risks associated with trying to land PI.

[Dads707]

Out of everything in this thread, this post was probably the most helpful. Thank you.

No sweat. I'm not out of the most prestigious of MBA programs (we're in and out of the top 40), but PM me if you'd like some insight on my experience.