Going into patent law with a JD/MS (in Computer Science) Forum

[reallybigheadphones]

Hi,

I was wondering if it would be realistic to get a job in patent pros OR patent lit with a JD/MS, with the MS being in Computer Science.

I'm a prospective international applicant and have two main reasons for wanting into go into IP:

1) I like science, and I feel like it would be enjoyable to me compared to other fields of law.
2) I've heard that it's more likely that firms will sponsor you for a green card if you're in IP, since the demand is so high.

So I am curious about a few things:
1) Which is more in demand? Patent pros or patent lit? Which would help me more in terms of getting a green card sponsorship?
2) How favorably would firms look upon a student with a BA in Economics and an MS in Computer Science? I would have little to none related experience, aside from the MS degree. I'm guessing it'd be an uphill battle, but is this something I can realistically achieve, or just a crazy pipe dream?

My plan is to take the courses necessary to meet the conditions to sit the patent bar through Category B. Plan to take ~30 credits of hard sciences before I graduate (4~5 semesters left, and the choice is up to me). If I graduate within 4 semesters it would be after fall 2017. I'd have about 8 months or so before I start law school anyway, so during that time I believe I'd be able to take more courses to meet the requirement for the patent bar.

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/patent-bar-exam/category-b/

[Goldie]

Slightly different answer, but look into cybersecurity. It's a hot area that could use more people with that computer science background. I know at least one attorney who went back to school for an MS in computer science to put herself in a better position to do cybersecurity work.

[Desert Fox]

You'll probably make more doing programming in SV than doing patent law. Don't become a lawyer.

[reallybigheadphones]

Slightly different answer, but look into cybersecurity. It's a hot area that could use more people with that computer science background. I know at least one attorney who went back to school for an MS in computer science to put herself in a better position to do cybersecurity work.

So do you mean like in-house at a cybersecurity company?

You'll probably make more doing programming in SV than doing patent law. Don't become a lawyer.

I don't know how marketable I would be with just a MS and no work experience.

[Desert Fox]

Slightly different answer, but look into cybersecurity. It's a hot area that could use more people with that computer science background. I know at least one attorney who went back to school for an MS in computer science to put herself in a better position to do cybersecurity work.

So do you mean like in-house at a cybersecurity company?

You'll probably make more doing programming in SV than doing patent law. Don't become a lawyer.

I don't know how marketable I would be with just a MS and no work experience.

why don't you have any work experience, no internships during undergrad? SV companies hire a lot of newbie programmers. Within three years (how long law school takes) you'll be experienced.

[Goldie]

Slightly different answer, but look into cybersecurity. It's a hot area that could use more people with that computer science background. I know at least one attorney who went back to school for an MS in computer science to put herself in a better position to do cybersecurity work.

So do you mean like in-house at a cybersecurity company?

I mean, as an attorney (in-house or at a law firm) advising companies on how to create reasonable cybersecurity programs, how to respond to data breaches, etc. A lot of big law firms have growing practices in this area.

[kcdc1]

How favorably would firms look upon a student with a BA in Economics and an MS in Computer Science? I would have little to none related experience, aside from the MS degree. I'm guessing it'd be an uphill battle, but is this something I can realistically achieve, or just a crazy pipe dream?

If you're dead-set on patent law, I'd be cautious about trying to get your foot in the door with a masters in CS and no relevant experience. The tough thing is you'd be looking at starting work in 3+ years, and it's really difficult to say what the job market in CS will be like at that time.

As you may know, substantive US patent law has been changing rapidly over the past few years, and a 2014 supreme court case (Alice v CLS Bank) has been widely interpreted as making software ineligible for patent protection. Unless the law changes again (which it very well may), patent work will slowly dry up in that technology space. There's still work left today (applications and suits take years to resolve), but it's hard to predict what the market will look like on your timeframe.

If you have technical experience with EE or hardware, you'll be in much better shape. That area is unaffected, and should continue growing for the foreseeable future (although there could theoretically be more competition for that work if the CS attorneys shift into EE and hardware).

I'd also note that the job prospects for CS are pretty good outside of law.

[reallybigheadphones]

why don't you have any work experience, no internships during undergrad? SV companies hire a lot of newbie programmers. Within three years (how long law school takes) you'll be experienced.

I mean I do, but it's not any relevant work experience. I just worked to pay my way through college - nothing competitive that looks good on a resume.

I mean, as an attorney (in-house or at a law firm) advising companies on how to create reasonable cybersecurity programs, how to respond to data breaches, etc. A lot of big law firms have growing practices in this area.

Oh cool, I didn't even know that was a thing. Do you think then a JD/MS in CS with a BA in Econ would be able to get attention from biglaw firms, as long as I show interest in cybersecurity during the MS track? I'm hoping this would be one of the cases where a JD/MS might actually look good.

If you're dead-set on patent law, I'd be cautious about trying to get your foot in the door with a masters in CS and no relevant experience. The tough thing is you'd be looking at starting work in 3+ years, and it's really difficult to say what the job market in CS will be like at that time.

As you may know, substantive US patent law has been changing rapidly over the past few years, and a 2014 supreme court case (Alice v CLS Bank) has been widely interpreted as making software ineligible for patent protection. Unless the law changes again (which it very well may), patent work will slowly dry up in that technology space. There's still work left today (applications and suits take years to resolve), but it's hard to predict what the market will look like on your timeframe.

If you have technical experience with EE or hardware, you'll be in much better shape. That area is unaffected, and should continue growing for the foreseeable future (although there could theoretically be more competition for that work if the CS attorneys shift into EE and hardware).

I'd also note that the job prospects for CS are pretty good outside of law.

Thank you, I had no idea about this.

To be perfectly honest, what I want to do is to be able to work in the US and then eventually get sponsored for a green card. That's my ultimate goal, and I think I'd be okay with doing either programming or law work. Either way, I'd have to go to school for a few years and shell out thousands of dollars. I was looking at JD initially because if I do well on the LSAT, I might get $$$ from some schools, whereas with just a MS in CS, not only would getting in be much more difficult, I'd have to pay sticker at almost all institutions (seems there is little aid for MS students, and what little aid there is is often unavailable to foreigners).

[Goldie]

If you're seriously interested in cybersecurity, check this out: http://www.lawandsecurity.org/ASPIRE-Scholarship It's a full-tuition cybersecurity law scholarship at NYU.

[kcdc1]

Depending on your marital status, I'd recommend: (1) marrying a US citizen; or (2) having an anchor baby. Given your career goals, both are likely better options than going to law school. Not unrelatedly, both also involve more sex than going to law school.

[mori2015]

Depending on your marital status, I'd recommend: (1) marrying a US citizen; or (2) having an anchor baby. Given your career goals, both are likely better options than going to law school. Not unrelatedly, both also involve more sex than going to law school.

"Anchor babies" are fictional. DAPA is still pending in the courts, and even if the program is reaffirmed it is not a green card.

[reallybigheadphones]

If you're seriously interested in cybersecurity, check this out: http://www.lawandsecurity.org/ASPIRE-Scholarship It's a full-tuition cybersecurity law scholarship at NYU.

Sounds wonderful but I'm expressly ruled out - it's only for US citizens. Which leads me to wonder if international students are at a disadvantage when trying to break into the field.

Depending on your marital status, I'd recommend: (1) marrying a US citizen; or (2) having an anchor baby. Given your career goals, both are likely better options than going to law school. Not unrelatedly, both also involve more sex than going to law school.

Haha. Well I have a loving girlfriend who I plan to marry, and she's not a US citizen. More likely than not I will probably marry her before I go to law school and she'll be a dependent while I'm studying. I'll be 32 when I start law school. I guess having a baby in the US isn't out of the question, but I don't know how good that will be for her - having a baby in a foreign land with little support from friends/family.

[kcdc1]

Well I have a loving girlfriend who I plan to marry . . . before I go to law school and she'll . . . hav[e] a baby in the US . . . but I don't know how good that will be for her.

Ah, the old marry into law school into anchor baby parlay. What I wouldn't give to be young again.

[reallybigheadphones]

All joking aside, is there any realistic way for me to raise my chances of getting a green card?

If patent law in CS is uncertain, what if I double majored in EE? So it would be a double major in EE and economics, with about 36 credit-hours each for each major. I doubt that would be enough, so my goal would be then to get into an JD/MS EE program, pass the patent bar early.

Assuming I can double major in EE without a drop in GPA, what do you think - does this make me a desirable/attractive candidate for patent pros (the kind that is in demand enough for firms to have incentive to offer to sponsor me for a green card)?

I just want to be able to practice law in the US for a long time, without having to worry that there's a time limit on my head of 6 years (partner-track or bust).

[kcdc1]

FWIW, when I applied, Duke was offering a program where you could get a JD and a masters in ECE (electrical & computer engineering) in 3.5 or 4 years (not 100% on time). You had to get into both programs separately, which is obviously not easy at Duke. If you did manage to pull that off and get decent grades, I'd imagine you'd be an attractive candidate for the big patent firms. You'd have to do some googling to see if that program is still available.

I don't know how many other schools offer a program like that. They might require you to complete the JD and the Masters degrees sequentially, paying full tuition for both. I really don't think five years of school (i.e., loans + zero income) would make sense for almost anyone--barring rich parents who are footing the bill.

I know nothing about the immigration / green card part of this question. My guess is that there must be more cost-effective ways to get a good job in the US, but I really don't know.

[kcdc1]

If you're still in undergrad (can't really tell from your posts), then majoring in EE would make you more attractive for patent jobs. If you're talking about going back to college to add a BS in EE, that might seem like a weird path, and weird is not great for firm interviews. Better to get a Masters in that case.

Again tho, I think patent law makes more sense for someone who happens to have the right education and work experience. Planning multiple steps of education around practicing patent law strikes me as risky, particularly given the immigration issues. I'd give more consideration to exploring the engineering/programming path.

[Desert Fox]

Can't you H1B yourself into a CS gig?

[reallybigheadphones]

If you're still in undergrad (can't really tell from your posts), then majoring in EE would make you more attractive for patent jobs. If you're talking about going back to college to add a BS in EE, that might seem like a weird path, and weird is not great for firm interviews. Better to get a Masters in that case.

Again tho, I think patent law makes more sense for someone who happens to have the right education and work experience. Planning multiple steps of education around practicing patent law strikes me as risky, particularly given the immigration issues. I'd give more consideration to exploring the engineering/programming path.

Funny thing though is that actually I'm really risk-averse at this point because I'm older than most students (28, 3rd year UG). I'm worried that even if I go to a top law school, I might just be chucked out of a biglaw firm after my 6-year H1B visa limit is up. That's the reason I'm interested in patent law, because it's so in demand and would make it much more likely for me to be able to work for a long time in the US. I guess the real question is, would a double major from a foreign university be valued enough to make me that desirable as a patent lawyer?

Can't you H1B yourself into a CS gig?

Maybe, but if I fail the lottery there's really nothing for me to do back home - the CS industry here is horrible (i.e., my pre-tax salary would be lower than tuition for a Master's in CS). At least with a JD there would be some sort of high-paying positions available back home, though with one sad caveat: very little room for advancement.

[Desert Fox]

First of all maters in CS is really worthless in the USA. It's not needed for any job. All the best companies hire BS in CS and start ups don't even require that.

Do you have a BS in CS? Do you know how to program?

[reallybigheadphones]

First of all maters in CS is really worthless in the USA. It's not needed for any job. All the best companies hire BS in CS and start ups don't even require that.

Do you have a BS in CS? Do you know how to program?

I know how to program, and if I wanted to make a career out of it I'd make sure I'd get better at it before I graduate. The only reason I'd want to get a Master's in CS in the US would be to get my foot in the door and to have a better shot at the H1B lottery. It's much more difficult for me to apply jobs as a foreigner in a foreign country, whereas if I were attending a school in the US, I would have more opportunities and doors available. If I got a job in the middle of the Master's program and my employer was okay with me dropping the degree and I am approved for the H1B visa, I'd drop the program immediately.

[kcdc1]

Funny thing though is that actually I'm really risk-averse at this point because I'm older than most students (28, 3rd year UG). I'm worried that even if I go to a top law school, I might just be chucked out of a biglaw firm after my 6-year H1B visa limit is up. That's the reason I'm interested in patent law, because it's so in demand and would make it much more likely for me to be able to work for a long time in the US. I guess the real question is, would a double major from a foreign university be valued enough to make me that desirable as a patent lawyer?

I don't think anyone is going to be able put a number on the risk involved here. Could the JD plan work? Yes. Could you graduate with no job and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt? Also yes. The likelihood of each outcome is anyone's guess.

Also bear in mind that legal hiring is not particularly merit-based. The hiring process for big firms focuses on a 2-week period where you sit for a bunch of 20 minute interviews and answer superficial questions about why you went to law school and what your favorite classes are. Are you good looking? Do you have a strong accent? Are you charismatic? Will hiring you help firms meet their diversity goals? Then factor in all the things that are out of your control. What is the economy like? Did Congress pass a reform bill that chilled the patent market?

You'll have to decide what makes sense given your situation. I'd try to figure out an education plan where you'll have acceptable options in your home country if working in the US doesn't pan out.

[redtalun]

First of all maters in CS is really worthless in the USA. It's not needed for any job. All the best companies hire BS in CS and start ups don't even require that.

Do you have a BS in CS? Do you know how to program?

What you said is mostly true pertaining to software developer jobs, but a MS in comp sci would definitely help OP if he/she were to look for work as a PM.

[reallybigheadphones]

Funny thing though is that actually I'm really risk-averse at this point because I'm older than most students (28, 3rd year UG). I'm worried that even if I go to a top law school, I might just be chucked out of a biglaw firm after my 6-year H1B visa limit is up. That's the reason I'm interested in patent law, because it's so in demand and would make it much more likely for me to be able to work for a long time in the US. I guess the real question is, would a double major from a foreign university be valued enough to make me that desirable as a patent lawyer?

I don't think anyone is going to be able put a number on the risk involved here. Could the JD plan work? Yes. Could you graduate with no job and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt? Also yes. The likelihood of each outcome is anyone's guess.

Also bear in mind that legal hiring is not particularly merit-based. The hiring process for big firms focuses on a 2-week period where you sit for a bunch of 20 minute interviews and answer superficial questions about why you went to law school and what your favorite classes are. Are you good looking? Do you have a strong accent? Are you charismatic? Will hiring you help firms meet their diversity goals? Then factor in all the things that are out of your control. What is the economy like? Did Congress pass a reform bill that chilled the patent market?

You'll have to decide what makes sense given your situation. I'd try to figure out an education plan where you'll have acceptable options in your home country if working in the US doesn't pan out.

Yeah I guess you're right. We'll just have to see I guess =/