If you could go back in time and deal with loans Forum

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SD619

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by SD619 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:33 pm

kennethellenparcell wrote:OP first of all - did you get into any lower T14 schools? Did you try negotiating with your UChicago scholly yet? If not, worth a try.

I came from a similar background to you and big law is 100% a step up. If you're first generation immigrant like me, then big law really won't seem that bad. You can handle it - spend about three years in a good law firm (which you'll definitely be able to get from UChicago) and network and try to find a good in-house position. Or lateral to a more lifestyle firm. Trust me, recruiters will be banging on your door from like day one. It's not all doom and gloom like people say on here. Sure, big law isn't easy (and I'm still in my first year at my law firm) but it's a decent gig if you're trying to move up in the world.

As for tips to deal with loans/debt in general:
- if you're interest in PI, definitely try to get that experience during your 1L summer and join clinics and integrate yourself with those profs to learn about opportunities. At UChicago, there will be people who, if they can't teach you themselves, will be able to put you in touch with the people that can teach you. There's no shortage of people who will help if you ask. And if the first person you ask won't help, another one will.
- I worked for 3 years to save up before I went to law school. If you know you want to go to law school 100% right now, I wouldn't go this route. Otherwise, I'd defer at UChicago and go work. It helped significantly with my first year rent and food expenses.
- Pay down interest if you can during school, or at least before it capitalizes. You can get an interest deduction on your taxes for this (until the year you start making over $80K I think) - if you can afford to pay off the interest.
- Like everyone said, don't blow your SA dollars - save and use toward rent, food etc.
- Also, being in Hyde Park, your rent will be cheap. If you can get/are willing to get roommates, you can save a lot on those costs and use some of your dollars to pay tuition.
- I got a part-time job 3L year to help with food and rent costs. May be a good idea if you have the time.
- Finally, refinance after graduation if you can! There are some banks (First Republic e.g.) that are offering insanely low fixed rates. But if you're going into PI ultimately, re-financing may not make sense because your loans will be forgiven anyway.
- Also, don't get sucked into the law student high rolling life. One of the biggest shocks I had to my system was going to UChicago for undergrad. Almost everyone was wealthier than me and lacked the perspective I had growing up - almost made me ashamed of how I was raised. It was even worse in law school, but I already had that shock to my system and it didn't bother me as much anymore.

Having a lot of debt sucks but I would say it's a hell of a lot better than the life my parents had to lead to give me the opportunities I have now. Plus, honestly - I don't have the luxury to do the things I want. I need to have a decent-paying job to take care of them as they get older.

Thank you so much for the response and suggestions. I feel like you definitely understand more where I am coming from. And 100% the idea of wanting desperately to be able to support my parents and family in old age. I am a man of incredibly simple pleasures and I love to work- not saying I will love big law, just saying I feel grateful when I have things to do.

I will take these recommendations into consideration.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced that I should pursue private sector work (not PI).

Thanks again for the help.

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:51 pm

asdfdfdfadfas wrote:Indeed. The problem with the above is most people are simply indebting themselves to purchase consumer goods or hoping for a good job at some time in the future. I think that isn't the best strategy.
Such a fact that there have been more than a few suicides in the area where I live related to over-indebtedness. It's a very serious issue. I can be blase about my own debt and pay back large amounts because I do not actually need to earn my own money (though it would have been nice if my money wasn't earmarked for loans--law school is a bitch of an x).

OP's situation is more dire, but he'll grind it out and pretty sure that ATL guy never paid his loans and seems to eat :? (I feel guilty about the low lying fat joke).

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kennethellenparcell

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by kennethellenparcell » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:35 pm

You should totally take advantage of all the opportunities in law school to explore before you make that career decision (e.g. join a clinic, talk to people who have careers you're interested in, do 1L summer in PI, do 2L summer as an SA). After all, that's what you're paying for at UChicago!

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by BigZuck » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:37 pm

SD619 wrote:
kennethellenparcell wrote:OP first of all - did you get into any lower T14 schools? Did you try negotiating with your UChicago scholly yet? If not, worth a try.

I came from a similar background to you and big law is 100% a step up. If you're first generation immigrant like me, then big law really won't seem that bad. You can handle it - spend about three years in a good law firm (which you'll definitely be able to get from UChicago) and network and try to find a good in-house position. Or lateral to a more lifestyle firm. Trust me, recruiters will be banging on your door from like day one. It's not all doom and gloom like people say on here. Sure, big law isn't easy (and I'm still in my first year at my law firm) but it's a decent gig if you're trying to move up in the world.

As for tips to deal with loans/debt in general:
- if you're interest in PI, definitely try to get that experience during your 1L summer and join clinics and integrate yourself with those profs to learn about opportunities. At UChicago, there will be people who, if they can't teach you themselves, will be able to put you in touch with the people that can teach you. There's no shortage of people who will help if you ask. And if the first person you ask won't help, another one will.
- I worked for 3 years to save up before I went to law school. If you know you want to go to law school 100% right now, I wouldn't go this route. Otherwise, I'd defer at UChicago and go work. It helped significantly with my first year rent and food expenses.
- Pay down interest if you can during school, or at least before it capitalizes. You can get an interest deduction on your taxes for this (until the year you start making over $80K I think) - if you can afford to pay off the interest.
- Like everyone said, don't blow your SA dollars - save and use toward rent, food etc.
- Also, being in Hyde Park, your rent will be cheap. If you can get/are willing to get roommates, you can save a lot on those costs and use some of your dollars to pay tuition.
- I got a part-time job 3L year to help with food and rent costs. May be a good idea if you have the time.
- Finally, refinance after graduation if you can! There are some banks (First Republic e.g.) that are offering insanely low fixed rates. But if you're going into PI ultimately, re-financing may not make sense because your loans will be forgiven anyway.
- Also, don't get sucked into the law student high rolling life. One of the biggest shocks I had to my system was going to UChicago for undergrad. Almost everyone was wealthier than me and lacked the perspective I had growing up - almost made me ashamed of how I was raised. It was even worse in law school, but I already had that shock to my system and it didn't bother me as much anymore.

Having a lot of debt sucks but I would say it's a hell of a lot better than the life my parents had to lead to give me the opportunities I have now. Plus, honestly - I don't have the luxury to do the things I want. I need to have a decent-paying job to take care of them as they get older.

Thank you so much for the response and suggestions. I feel like you definitely understand more where I am coming from. And 100% the idea of wanting desperately to be able to support my parents and family in old age. I am a man of incredibly simple pleasures and I love to work- not saying I will love big law, just saying I feel grateful when I have things to do.

I will take these recommendations into consideration.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced that I should pursue private sector work (not PI).

Thanks again for the help.
I see why you like what he said but there's something a bit troubling to me about a baby big lawyer saying "Just do 3 years bro, it ain't so bad!" I mean, maybe. But it's troubling.

Anyway I think it's kind of silly to look at law as the ONLY possible career and Chicago as the ONLY possible option, which seems to be what a good number of people are assuming here. I'm suspicious of the OP's commitment to PI (especially in light of all the clawing your way into middleclassdom talk). I think the most likely outcome at Chicago is 300K debt and becoming a cog in the big law machine like everyone else. And that's not a good move IMO but YOLO I guess.

I would take time (are you seriously only 21 years old???) to make sure you REALLY want to be a lawyer and what you REALLY want out of life and if law is the best way to accomplish that. I don't think any of that has happened here, I think the OP wants to wear a suit to work and Chicago is the most prestigious way to do that, so the OP will be going to Chicago. Of course I could be wrong, I don't know the OP, etc. and I'm probably just projecting based on my own experiences and what I have seen from classmates or whatever.

Ok I'm done, I'll stop harping on that. Seriously OP, good luck with whatever you end up doing. You're obviously a smart guy and it sounds you've overcome a lot and your intentions are good, I sincerely hope everything works out for you.

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by SD619 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:42 pm

I'm going to make this reply in general terms because I have to respond on my phone and don't know how to make the text quotes shorter.

Thank you to everyone who is giving me any feedback- seriously a lot of this stuff I sat down and explained to my mom (English is her first language) and tried to really come to more definitive and concrete choices.

To everyone who wished me luck or gives encouragement- I also want to tell you that it helps alot and I appreciate the kindness.

Finally to the people who have given me more sobering feedback, your words are also indespensible. It's nice to get myriad perspectives weighing in on this situation so that I don't fly forward blindly.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:47 pm

SD619 wrote:
OP has all these people telling him sticker debt is a terrible idea and is still going through absurd mental gymnastics to talk himself into it. Don't waste your energy on this one, guys; it's a hopeless cause.

OP: Years from now, with no end in sight to your debtpwnage, remember that everyone warned you, and you thought they were all crazy.
If that's what you gleaned from reading this thread- that I'm "talking myself into" anything, then I don't think I should be following any advice coming from you in the first place.

If you read the title of the thread... I wasn't saying "Hey guys I want your opinion on whether I should go to Chicago at near sticker".

Rather, I said, respectfully- please, assuming that this is the situation I will be pursuing, regardless of whether you think it is prudent or not, knowing what you know from experience, how can I put myself in the most favorable position to pay this off?

If you read through, I think I have been a pretty good sport toward people derailing my original question and just telling me about how bad of an idea it is.
You: "How to best treat wounds after I slit my throat?"

Others: "What if, instead, you didn't slit your throat?"

You: "Excuse me, I didn't ask whether I should slit my throat, I asked how to treat the wounds after I do. WHY IS EVERYONE DERAILING MY ORIGINAL QUESTION?"

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by SD619 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:50 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
SD619 wrote:
OP has all these people telling him sticker debt is a terrible idea and is still going through absurd mental gymnastics to talk himself into it. Don't waste your energy on this one, guys; it's a hopeless cause.

OP: Years from now, with no end in sight to your debtpwnage, remember that everyone warned you, and you thought they were all crazy.
If that's what you gleaned from reading this thread- that I'm "talking myself into" anything, then I don't think I should be following any advice coming from you in the first place.

If you read the title of the thread... I wasn't saying "Hey guys I want your opinion on whether I should go to Chicago at near sticker".

Rather, I said, respectfully- please, assuming that this is the situation I will be pursuing, regardless of whether you think it is prudent or not, knowing what you know from experience, how can I put myself in the most favorable position to pay this off?

If you read through, I think I have been a pretty good sport toward people derailing my original question and just telling me about how bad of an idea it is.
You: "How to best treat wounds after I slit my throat?"

Others: "What if, instead, you didn't slit your throat?"

You: "Excuse me, I didn't ask whether I should slit my throat, I asked how to treat the wounds after I do. WHY IS EVERYONE DERAILING MY ORIGINAL QUESTION?"
American psycho is/was pathetically overrated so get outta here

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by asdfdfdfadfas » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:02 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
SD619 wrote:
OP has all these people telling him sticker debt is a terrible idea and is still going through absurd mental gymnastics to talk himself into it. Don't waste your energy on this one, guys; it's a hopeless cause.

OP: Years from now, with no end in sight to your debtpwnage, remember that everyone warned you, and you thought they were all crazy.
If that's what you gleaned from reading this thread- that I'm "talking myself into" anything, then I don't think I should be following any advice coming from you in the first place.

If you read the title of the thread... I wasn't saying "Hey guys I want your opinion on whether I should go to Chicago at near sticker".

Rather, I said, respectfully- please, assuming that this is the situation I will be pursuing, regardless of whether you think it is prudent or not, knowing what you know from experience, how can I put myself in the most favorable position to pay this off?

If you read through, I think I have been a pretty good sport toward people derailing my original question and just telling me about how bad of an idea it is.
You: "How to best treat wounds after I slit my throat?"

Others: "What if, instead, you didn't slit your throat?"

You: "Excuse me, I didn't ask whether I should slit my throat, I asked how to treat the wounds after I do. WHY IS EVERYONE DERAILING MY ORIGINAL QUESTION?"
You know, some people say happiness is a choice. Maybe you should just implement positive thinking and meditation into your morning schedule. Maybe some blueberries and oatmeal. :lol:
Last edited by asdfdfdfadfas on Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kennethellenparcell

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by kennethellenparcell » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:08 pm

Just so you know, I've been kicking around different law firms since I was 18. I took it upon myself to figure out what lawyers do early on so I could make a fully informed decision to go to law school. After college, I spent two years as a paralegal for the #1 rainmaker in the department of a big law firm before I went to law school. Everyone told me not to go but I did my research and I STILL DON'T THINK IT'S THAT BAD. With that said, I have seen some messed up shit happen. But I don't think it's as bad as people on TLS say still. Any career when you're starting off is going to be full of politics and grunt work and people shitting on you. But honestly, part of upward mobility is dealing with that shit. What's the alternative for us? I see how the debt can really influence your calculus too, but my mom used to work in a college dining hall lugging giant ass trays around so her arms were constantly bruised. My life currently is infinitely better than hers then.

So while I am a baby lawyer in terms of years of experience as an attorney, I am not a baby lawyer in terms of experiencing law firm culture. I do think it is credited for you to experience big law though before you go to law school and go into big law. You'll definitely be fully informed then.

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by Johann » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:20 pm

i didnt read any of this thread but UChi at sticker is fine if your alternatives suck. It's all an opportunity cost calculation. If you are making dog shit money with no path to decent or good money, law is a great middle class to upper middle class outcome for a lot of work. Just don't expect to get rich.

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kennethellenparcell

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by kennethellenparcell » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:21 pm

Actually OP if you want that paralegal job I had and you're in Chicago - I could probably put in a good word for you. If you want to defer UChicago and experience realistic big law culture that is (not 2L SA big firm culture)...feel free to PM me if interested.

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anyriotgirl

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by anyriotgirl » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:33 pm

is it too late to just do ibanking?

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Johann

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by Johann » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:34 pm

Not sure if anyone here can use this:
SD619 wrote:
I'm like 25% sure I'm clean [re STDs]...
but this is the sort of decision maker we are trying to persuade

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by SD619 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:44 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:Not sure if anyone here can use this:
SD619 wrote:
I'm like 25% sure I'm clean [re STDs]...
but this is the sort of decision maker we are trying to persuade

I thought it was blatantly obvious that i was joking. The next part of my response was about "encouraging sluts rather than shaming them"

Ah the internet

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by SD619 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:46 pm

kennethellenparcell wrote:Actually OP if you want that paralegal job I had and you're in Chicago - I could probably put in a good word for you. If you want to defer UChicago and experience realistic big law culture that is (not 2L SA big firm culture)...feel free to PM me if interested.
I would really enjoy this, but wouldn't I need some form of certification or degree? (Excuse my ignorance, I am genuinely curious)

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by SD619 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:48 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:is it too late to just do ibanking?
Yeah... But I know someone who does Ibanking at Goldman Sachs and supposedly works 120hrs a week.

Not a typo

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by anyriotgirl » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:54 pm

SD619 wrote:
kennethellenparcell wrote:Actually OP if you want that paralegal job I had and you're in Chicago - I could probably put in a good word for you. If you want to defer UChicago and experience realistic big law culture that is (not 2L SA big firm culture)...feel free to PM me if interested.
I would really enjoy this, but wouldn't I need some form of certification or degree? (Excuse my ignorance, I am genuinely curious)
nah big firms hire recent grads to do twoish year stints as paralegals. this is a really good idea for you. you'll have a decent base salary plus overtime and you'll get an idea of what it's actually like to work at a firm. work experience is also very helpful at OCI

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by SD619 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:58 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:
SD619 wrote:
kennethellenparcell wrote:Actually OP if you want that paralegal job I had and you're in Chicago - I could probably put in a good word for you. If you want to defer UChicago and experience realistic big law culture that is (not 2L SA big firm culture)...feel free to PM me if interested.
I would really enjoy this, but wouldn't I need some form of certification or degree? (Excuse my ignorance, I am genuinely curious)
nah big firms hire recent grads to do twoish year stints as paralegals. this is a really good idea for you. you'll have a decent base salary plus overtime and you'll get an idea of what it's actually like to work at a firm. work experience is also very helpful at OCI
I was actually seriously considering deferring (if it was approved) in order to get a paralegal cert and try to do that for a year. But I was under the impression I needed some kind of additional degree or schooling

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by anyriotgirl » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:03 pm

SD619 wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
SD619 wrote:
kennethellenparcell wrote:Actually OP if you want that paralegal job I had and you're in Chicago - I could probably put in a good word for you. If you want to defer UChicago and experience realistic big law culture that is (not 2L SA big firm culture)...feel free to PM me if interested.
I would really enjoy this, but wouldn't I need some form of certification or degree? (Excuse my ignorance, I am genuinely curious)
nah big firms hire recent grads to do twoish year stints as paralegals. this is a really good idea for you. you'll have a decent base salary plus overtime and you'll get an idea of what it's actually like to work at a firm. work experience is also very helpful at OCI
I was actually seriously considering deferring (if it was approved) in order to get a paralegal cert and try to do that for a year. But I was under the impression I needed some kind of additional degree or schooling
this is 100% not the case. I was a paralegal at a boutique with nothing but a BA, and I have friends who were at places like Skadden and Weil also with nothing but a BA. the firm will train you for what it needs you to do.

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by SD619 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:07 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:
SD619 wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
SD619 wrote:
kennethellenparcell wrote:Actually OP if you want that paralegal job I had and you're in Chicago - I could probably put in a good word for you. If you want to defer UChicago and experience realistic big law culture that is (not 2L SA big firm culture)...feel free to PM me if interested.
I would really enjoy this, but wouldn't I need some form of certification or degree? (Excuse my ignorance, I am genuinely curious)
nah big firms hire recent grads to do twoish year stints as paralegals. this is a really good idea for you. you'll have a decent base salary plus overtime and you'll get an idea of what it's actually like to work at a firm. work experience is also very helpful at OCI
I was actually seriously considering deferring (if it was approved) in order to get a paralegal cert and try to do that for a year. But I was under the impression I needed some kind of additional degree or schooling
this is 100% not the case. I was a paralegal at a boutique with nothing but a BA, and I have friends who were at places like Skadden and Weil also with nothing but a BA. the firm will train you for what it needs you to do.
Thank you for the knowledge. I will definitely look into this option immediately. Perhaps Chicago will allow me to defer.

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by kennethellenparcell » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 pm

I think you do in certain states, but not Illinois. Plus even in the states that you need the certification they'll hire you and just call you a case assistant rather than a paralegal. Seriously though, if interested - PM me - I can give you additional details. My old boss exclusively hires people who want to go to law school (in hopes they become his associates later on). Even if you can't get hired with him, Kirkland & Ellis often hires case assistants with your background. So do places like Wachtell, Sullivan & Cromwell etc.

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Desert Fox

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by Desert Fox » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:10 pm

paralegaling is for women born before they were allowed to be lawyers for real.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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anyriotgirl

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by anyriotgirl » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:14 pm

Desert Fox wrote:paralegaling is for women born before they were allowed to be lawyers for real.
just think DF

if you had paralegaled for two years, maybe you would have found something else to do with your life

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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by Desert Fox » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:17 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:paralegaling is for women born before they were allowed to be lawyers for real.
just think DF

if you had paralegaled for two years, maybe you would have found something else to do with your life
I really dont think paralegals know how shitty being a lawyer is.
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Re: If you could go back in time and deal with loans

Post by bruinfan10 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:19 pm

SD619 wrote:
abl wrote:
BigZuck wrote:But really though, just take the scholarship at a lower ranked T14. Cutting a bunch of corners to only be 220K in debt instead of 230K in debt is...something...I guess but might as well take the 50K extra scholarship at, like, Duke. Then you won't necessarily have to do those things are you'll probably end up with the same job at the end. That's what we call a win, win.
I partially agree with this. I don't think that taking on second jobs in law school is a good idea for this exact reason. Sure, you might be able to make an additional $10-20k. But it's going to impact your performance, ability to participate in ECs, connections, etc. If you're really this debt adverse, it makes more sense just to go to somewhere like Duke with a bigger scholarship.

The flip side of this is that you've already decided (mostly decided?) to go to UChicago over some place like Duke with a $50k scholarship. This implies that you value the marginal increase in outcomes from Chicago over Duke (and other less tangible factors like geographical preferences) to a tune of >$50,000. If this is the case, don't give them up by working as an LSAT tutor in your free time, taking a 1L summer SA when you're looking to maximize your chances of crim law, etc.
UChicago gave me 15k over 3 years (aka I'm paying full sticker.)
Georgetown is gonna tell me if I get a monetary offer at the end of this week. However, I also have the option of UCLA at 25k each year (75k total). Idk how I could ever justify choosing Georgetown over UCLA but Chicago will at least ensure (almost) that I get a job unless I'm one of the (2?) people who didn't get one last year.

Also what Do you mean by maximizing chances of criminal law? Do people opt for like clinics or externships during 1l summer? Sorry I'm so not-knowledgable about this yet. I'm reading voraciously. I'm just trying to settle the idea of debt and select my school and also realize idk what kind of law to practice.
Did you say you wanted to work in San Diego, in public interest? Why not reapply to USD Law or Irvine Law and likely get a full ride? If you want SoCal, I'd take UCLA with a scholly over Chicago. Some UCLA kids get Biglaw too. But take it from someone who shot the moon in law school, got every credential short of a SCOTUS clerkship, and had their pick of the bleeding-edge best firms in the country; you are FAR better served reducing debt and avoiding biglaw altogether than you are going into indentured servitude for a big firm. Go to a law school that lets you afford to start on the career path you want long term, not one that forces you to work a crushing legal job for years just to get back to zero.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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