So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

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throwaway_
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby throwaway_ » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:17 pm

tomwatts wrote:This also explains part of why biglaw sucks so much. As an associate, you're basically just a cog in the machine trying to make FamousPartner look good. You don't actually get to do anything real; if you go out and show your face in court or wherever, the client will be like, "Who is this clown? I paid for FamousPartner, not this bozo!" So the work is pretty mundane and boring pretty much all the time.


This is well argued, and definitely part of the answer, but still doesn't quite feel like a complete response.

Investment banking and consulting run similar business models, but the "cogs" in the former feel that they're getting something worthwhile out of their devil's bargain, and anecdotally the cogs in the latter actually seem quite happy! There's something else specific to biglaw that causes it to be such a miserable career, even compared to other professional services.

PMan99
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby PMan99 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:03 pm

throwaway_ wrote:
tomwatts wrote:This also explains part of why biglaw sucks so much. As an associate, you're basically just a cog in the machine trying to make FamousPartner look good. You don't actually get to do anything real; if you go out and show your face in court or wherever, the client will be like, "Who is this clown? I paid for FamousPartner, not this bozo!" So the work is pretty mundane and boring pretty much all the time.


This is well argued, and definitely part of the answer, but still doesn't quite feel like a complete response.

Investment banking and consulting run similar business models, but the "cogs" in the former feel that they're getting something worthwhile out of their devil's bargain, and anecdotally the cogs in the latter actually seem quite happy! There's something else specific to biglaw that causes it to be such a miserable career, even compared to other professional services.


IB (at the analyst level, and to a much lesser extent the associate level) and consulting are largely stepping stones to the next part of your career. So you put up with the crap work and lifestyle for a few years and get to move on to better pastures, however you define that. Biglaw has the same up-or-out pressures and intense time commitment but lacks the exit ops.

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existentialcrisis
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby existentialcrisis » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:40 pm

PMan99 wrote:
throwaway_ wrote:
tomwatts wrote:This also explains part of why biglaw sucks so much. As an associate, you're basically just a cog in the machine trying to make FamousPartner look good. You don't actually get to do anything real; if you go out and show your face in court or wherever, the client will be like, "Who is this clown? I paid for FamousPartner, not this bozo!" So the work is pretty mundane and boring pretty much all the time.


This is well argued, and definitely part of the answer, but still doesn't quite feel like a complete response.

Investment banking and consulting run similar business models, but the "cogs" in the former feel that they're getting something worthwhile out of their devil's bargain, and anecdotally the cogs in the latter actually seem quite happy! There's something else specific to biglaw that causes it to be such a miserable career, even compared to other professional services.


IB (at the analyst level, and to a much lesser extent the associate level) and consulting are largely stepping stones to the next part of your career. So you put up with the crap work and lifestyle for a few years and get to move on to better pastures, however you define that. Biglaw has the same up-or-out pressures and intense time commitment but lacks the exit ops.


Yea this. I know a lot of people in IB and all of them hate/hated it and were doing it purely for the exits. For some (most?) people, it ends up being worth it, but lol at tons of people in banking be fulfilled.

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RParadela
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby RParadela » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:44 pm

What do some of the high-end plaintiff firms start at salary wise?

FascinatedWanderer
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby FascinatedWanderer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:32 pm

The other thing people in this thread don't seem to realize is that banking pays WAY more than biglaw. First year analysts at bulge brackets out of undergrad are clearing 120-130 minimum. By the time you're three years out of undergrad easily making 200k+ if you stuck around, and that's without the opportunity cost of 3 years of law school. If you exit to private equity your comp blows big law comp out of the water.

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landshoes
is that cool?
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby landshoes » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:49 pm

RParadela wrote:What do some of the high-end plaintiff firms start at salary wise?


They're exactly like biglaw in terms of hours, dick partners, and shitty QOL. Except less financially stable and no lock-step.

If you like the work, mazel tov, but they're not some idyllic refuge from biglaw lit.

dryoasis
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby dryoasis » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:57 pm

FascinatedWanderer wrote:The other thing people in this thread don't seem to realize is that banking pays WAY more than biglaw. First year analysts at bulge brackets out of undergrad are clearing 120-130 minimum. By the time you're three years out of undergrad easily making 200k+ if you stuck around, and that's without the opportunity cost of 3 years of law school. If you exit to private equity your comp blows big law comp out of the water.


This is laughably false. First year analysts are not "clearing 120-130 minimum." Base pay for mid tier bulge bracket (not Goldman or JP) is 75-85k with bonus ranging from 10-20k.


FascinatedWanderer
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby FascinatedWanderer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:14 pm

dryoasis wrote:
FascinatedWanderer wrote:The other thing people in this thread don't seem to realize is that banking pays WAY more than biglaw. First year analysts at bulge brackets out of undergrad are clearing 120-130 minimum. By the time you're three years out of undergrad easily making 200k+ if you stuck around, and that's without the opportunity cost of 3 years of law school. If you exit to private equity your comp blows big law comp out of the water.


This is laughably false. First year analysts are not "clearing 120-130 minimum." Base pay for mid tier bulge bracket (not Goldman or JP) is 75-85k with bonus ranging from 10-20k.



It's your bonus estimates that are "laughably false."

dryoasis
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby dryoasis » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:31 pm

Dude read the ranges, most straight out of undergrad analysts are not clearing 120k. Some quants, exceptionally talented analysts can make more than the median, but total comp tends to plateau at 100-110k.

I was a mid market analyst, I know not quite bulge bracket, but this was generally the case

tomwatts
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby tomwatts » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:44 pm

RParadela wrote:What do some of the high-end plaintiff firms start at salary wise?

The other person who responded to this didn't even attempt to answer the question, so I'll try to take this.

It varies kind of a lot. Some firms don't hire first-year associates; they want you to go get trained with some combination of clerkships/fellowships/biglaw/other plaintiffs' firms first. Some firms will hire first-years, but they hire them as fellows, not associates, so they pay them fellowship money, not associate money. (Usually they will hire you as an associate after some time getting trained as a fellow.) Others do hire first-years. I was interviewing to start as a third-year, and my offers ranged from 125K to 180K. They're generally not lockstep, and the salaries aren't released to Vault or whatever, so it's a lot harder to generalize than in biglaw.

But salary is potentially misleading at a lot of these places. Your total compensation can be anywhere from mostly salary to mostly bonuses. At the 125K place, everyone there (including associates after I got an offer) swore that bonuses brought you up to about equal what you would make in biglaw — at least in an average year. (It fluctuates a bit depending on how the firm does.)

The general trend is that you start out making less than you would in biglaw and, after a few years, you end up making anywhere from somewhat less to somewhat more than you would in an average biglaw firm. But it varies a lot depending on the type of work; if you're doing civil rights cases, you make less than if you're doing, say, securities. (Probably a lot less.)
Last edited by tomwatts on Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FascinatedWanderer
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby FascinatedWanderer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:46 pm

dryoasis wrote:Dude read the ranges, most straight out of undergrad analysts are not clearing 120k. Some quants, exceptionally talented analysts can make more than the median, but total comp tends to plateau at 100-110k.

I was a mid market analyst, I know not quite bulge bracket, but this was generally the case


I'm reading the ranges, but the stats on those sites indicate that the average comp is 10-20K higher than the plateau you posit. I had friends at MS, JPM, Stifel, GS, Lazard and others and they all definitely cleared over 110K their first year out.




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