So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

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asdfdfdfadfas
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby asdfdfdfadfas » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:46 am

Danger Zone wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

ENJOY IT HAR HAR HAR


I am not working there, it was more of a reputation inquiry.

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Danger Zone
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby Danger Zone » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:48 am

I was referencing a meme, which you can find by googling "enjoy DLA Piper." It will also tell you a bit about the firm's reputation.

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asdfdfdfadfas
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby asdfdfdfadfas » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:55 am

Danger Zone wrote:I was referencing a meme, which you can find by googling "enjoy DLA Piper." It will also tell you a bit about the firm's reputation.


Your response makes much more sense now. Thanks.

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Johann
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby Johann » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:18 pm

Londonbear wrote:How worried should you be about getting fired in your first year if you're at a NY V10?


depends on the economy. depends on any big rainmaker partner departures in your specific practice group. if youre in houston, id be slightly worried. probably fine everywhere else despite the recent cooling in corporate work.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby Londonbear » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:37 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
Londonbear wrote:How worried should you be about getting fired in your first year if you're at a NY V10?


depends on the economy. depends on any big rainmaker partner departures in your specific practice group. if youre in houston, id be slightly worried. probably fine everywhere else despite the recent cooling in corporate work.


If I went into a general practice group, like M&A it should be stable even with the slow down right?

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Johann
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby Johann » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:41 pm

Londonbear wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
Londonbear wrote:How worried should you be about getting fired in your first year if you're at a NY V10?


depends on the economy. depends on any big rainmaker partner departures in your specific practice group. if youre in houston, id be slightly worried. probably fine everywhere else despite the recent cooling in corporate work.


If I went into a general practice group, like M&A it should be stable even with the slow down right?


Yeah, for the first couple years you should be fine. A first year's review is much more like: we like your attitude; you did fine on hours; etc. Very vague and basically you'd have to be egregiously bad to get fired at a V10 in a good/fine economy. After your second review, things start getting a lot realer.

SoonerDevil
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby SoonerDevil » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:35 pm

SoonerDevil wrote:The OP is 100% accurate. I appreciate the brutal honesty. I strongly encourage all 1Ls or 2Ls reading this thread to do the JD/MBA program unless they are dead set on criminal practice or government work.

I did a JD/MBA program -- (both the law school and b-school are top 25-30ish, so nothing special, but certainly within an acceptable range) -- and it was, by far, the best career move I've ever made. The OP is right -- the premise that a JD opens many doors is flat wrong. Perhaps that was true decades ago, but it certainly is not true today. And, for some reason, the MBA is presently perceived as being a very versatile degree, akin to an utility infielder in baseball. But the quality of education from law school (e.g., learning how to think critically, writing in crisp, short sentences, and being forced to see all sides of an issue and ultimately give an opinion) was far more valuable than the education from b school (I was a finance and accounting undergrad and worked for a F500 company in their accounting group prior to grad school, so perhaps this explains my thoughts as I had a strong foundation in numbers and Excel).

I worked for a reputable regional firm, and really enjoyed my time there. I left because I was able to leverage my experience as an attorney (I am particularly good at client development, and was spending 1/3 of my billable hours on work that I originated organically by my third year of practice) into a boutique consulting opportunity. I regularly had headhunters contacting me about business opportunities because of my unique educational background. Let me be clear; I am not a genius or anyone that is off the charts smart. Far from it. But I do work my ass off, I'm excellent with clients, and I always deliver on my promises.

For those that have an interest in business, or want to think strategically and drive results, a law firm setting is not for you. And, as the OP noted, a corporate practice is not nearly as sexy as it is cracked up to be. All of the high level decisions are made by executives employed by your client, not from the attorneys that represent them. No doubt the attorneys provide valuable insight and explain risks, but at the end of the day the challenging and professionally rewarding opportunities are enjoyed by the business leaders, not their attorneys. Plus, there's no stock options in law.

Last thought. If you are a JD/MBA you will be appalled at what passes for professional writing in the business world. MBAs, generally speaking, can't write worth shit. And if you can speak numbers and run Excel sheets with them, you have a distinct competitive advantage because you can handle the qualitative and quantitative aspects of the business world. Most MBAs can't do the qualitative analysis.


lawlorbust wrote:Glad it worked out for you, but "get a JD/MBA" has to be TERRIBLE general advice. If you're interested in business, get a MBA and don't waste 2 years on the JD. If you're interested in law, having a MBA will do nothing for you.


I disagree. Of course, my sample size is one (although now that I think about it the other three peers that did the JD/MBA program with me have all turned out quite well, two are in BigLaw and the other owns his own business) and your mileage may vary, but depending on your practice area an MBA might be very worthwhile. My MBA allowed me access to plenty of bankers, some of whom became my clients. I could speak their language, and gained instant credibility. My practice area was commercial restructuring, so the MBA was of great value. I was also able to knock out the JD/MBA program in 3.5 years (with a couple of summer school classes mixed in). So the extra time and cost wasn't of great concern.

I'd be willing to bet a substantial number of attorneys wished they stayed an extra semester (or two) to earn their MBA.

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Danger Zone
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby Danger Zone » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:37 pm

How is being in biglaw a good outcome

TheoO
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby TheoO » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:55 pm

The four year JD/MBA nearly screwed someone I know at their T6 OCI. He had above mendian grades but none of the firms wanted to touch him for fear that he would bail and go b-side.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby jrass » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:26 pm

asdfdfdfadfas wrote:I have a general question. When you guys are referencing V whatever, I am assuming you are referencing vault rankings. Are those taken more seriously than the US news rankings? I have seen them used quite frequently here and I was just wondering if someone can just give me a general overview.

Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

A firm is just a conglomerate of people. The waiter at Applebee's might be nicer than the waiter at Friday's, but it won't be because of something special about Applebee's although I hear the 2 for 20 special is a good deal.

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Danger Zone
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:47 am

jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:I have a general question. When you guys are referencing V whatever, I am assuming you are referencing vault rankings. Are those taken more seriously than the US news rankings? I have seen them used quite frequently here and I was just wondering if someone can just give me a general overview.

Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

A firm is just a conglomerate of people. The waiter at Applebee's might be nicer than the waiter at Friday's, but it won't be because of something special about Applebee's although I hear the 2 for 20 special is a good deal.

How is this the least bit responsive

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby bruinfan10 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:41 pm

Danger Zone wrote:
jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:I have a general question. When you guys are referencing V whatever, I am assuming you are referencing vault rankings. Are those taken more seriously than the US news rankings? I have seen them used quite frequently here and I was just wondering if someone can just give me a general overview.

Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

A firm is just a conglomerate of people. The waiter at Applebee's might be nicer than the waiter at Friday's, but it won't be because of something special about Applebee's although I hear the 2 for 20 special is a good deal.

How is this the least bit responsive

2 for 20 special bro.

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asdfdfdfadfas
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby asdfdfdfadfas » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:49 pm

jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:I have a general question. When you guys are referencing V whatever, I am assuming you are referencing vault rankings. Are those taken more seriously than the US news rankings? I have seen them used quite frequently here and I was just wondering if someone can just give me a general overview.

Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

A firm is just a conglomerate of people. The waiter at Applebee's might be nicer than the waiter at Friday's, but it won't be because of something special about Applebee's although I hear the 2 for 20 special is a good deal.


I totally get it! So what you are saying is, if DLA Piper is Applebee's and Kirkland Ellis is Friday's eventhough DLA Piper has a special going on and there so happens to be nice people there, there are going to be nice waiters at Kirkland Ellis too. Got it, noted, written down, time stamped.

WhiteCollarBlueShirt
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:13 pm

asdfdfdfadfas wrote:
jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:I have a general question. When you guys are referencing V whatever, I am assuming you are referencing vault rankings. Are those taken more seriously than the US news rankings? I have seen them used quite frequently here and I was just wondering if someone can just give me a general overview.

Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

A firm is just a conglomerate of people. The waiter at Applebee's might be nicer than the waiter at Friday's, but it won't be because of something special about Applebee's although I hear the 2 for 20 special is a good deal.


I totally get it! So what you are saying is, if DLA Piper is Applebee's and Kirkland Ellis is Friday's eventhough DLA Piper has a special going on and there so happens to be nice people there, there are going to be nice waiters at Kirkland Ellis too. Got it, noted, written down, time stamped.


Actually, I think the waiters slip something in the drinks at K&E, because everyone there seems to relish closing late at night.

And on an aside to your prior question, it is easily searchable, but vault is largely meaningless. Look at vault, rely on chambers & partners and know that your experience may differ.

jrass
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby jrass » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:36 pm

asdfdfdfadfas wrote:
jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:I have a general question. When you guys are referencing V whatever, I am assuming you are referencing vault rankings. Are those taken more seriously than the US news rankings? I have seen them used quite frequently here and I was just wondering if someone can just give me a general overview.

Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

A firm is just a conglomerate of people. The waiter at Applebee's might be nicer than the waiter at Friday's, but it won't be because of something special about Applebee's although I hear the 2 for 20 special is a good deal.


I totally get it! So what you are saying is, if DLA Piper is Applebee's and Kirkland Ellis is Friday's eventhough DLA Piper has a special going on and there so happens to be nice people there, there are going to be nice waiters at Kirkland Ellis too. Got it, noted, written down, time stamped.

No no, you got it all wrong. DLA is like Friday's but they didn't pay the piper on Thursday so John and Freddie over at the Pancake House at the other end of the parking lot pay them a visit, you understand? Now John is a part-time bartender over at Applebee's, which is Kirkland, but he's a friend of mine. He gets me my drinks for free, but he's quick with a joke, ought to light up your smoke but there's some place he'd rather be so he applies for a job with Jimmy whose still in the Navy. For our purposes, Jimmy is Sull-Crom. Jimmy will probably be there for life, but the waitress has moved in house over at Chase. Jimmy and the Waitress practice together sometimes on deals named Project Loneliness, but it sure as hell beats practicing alone.

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asdfdfdfadfas
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby asdfdfdfadfas » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:50 pm

jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:
jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:I have a general question. When you guys are referencing V whatever, I am assuming you are referencing vault rankings. Are those taken more seriously than the US news rankings? I have seen them used quite frequently here and I was just wondering if someone can just give me a general overview.

Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

A firm is just a conglomerate of people. The waiter at Applebee's might be nicer than the waiter at Friday's, but it won't be because of something special about Applebee's although I hear the 2 for 20 special is a good deal.


I totally get it! So what you are saying is, if DLA Piper is Applebee's and Kirkland Ellis is Friday's eventhough DLA Piper has a special going on and there so happens to be nice people there, there are going to be nice waiters at Kirkland Ellis too. Got it, noted, written down, time stamped.

No no, you got it all wrong. DLA is like Friday's but they didn't pay the piper on Thursday so John and Freddie over at the Pancake House at the other end of the parking lot pay them a visit, you understand? Now John is a part-time bartender over at Applebee's, which is Kirkland, but he's a friend of mine. He gets me my drinks for free, but he's quick with a joke, ought to light up your smoke but there's some place he'd rather be so he applies for a job with Jimmy whose still in the Navy. For our purposes, Jimmy is Sull-Crom. Jimmy will probably be there for life, but the waitress has moved in house over at Chase. Jimmy and the Waitress practice together sometimes on deals named Project Loneliness, but it sure as hell beats practicing alone.


Ahh, I am back in college.

BernieTrump
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby BernieTrump » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:52 pm

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Last edited by BernieTrump on Thu May 11, 2017 11:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.

crit_racer
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby crit_racer » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:08 pm

jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:
jrass wrote:
asdfdfdfadfas wrote:I have a general question. When you guys are referencing V whatever, I am assuming you are referencing vault rankings. Are those taken more seriously than the US news rankings? I have seen them used quite frequently here and I was just wondering if someone can just give me a general overview.

Also, for those who are practicing what are your thoughts on DLA Piper? Just wondering.


Thanks.

A firm is just a conglomerate of people. The waiter at Applebee's might be nicer than the waiter at Friday's, but it won't be because of something special about Applebee's although I hear the 2 for 20 special is a good deal.


I totally get it! So what you are saying is, if DLA Piper is Applebee's and Kirkland Ellis is Friday's eventhough DLA Piper has a special going on and there so happens to be nice people there, there are going to be nice waiters at Kirkland Ellis too. Got it, noted, written down, time stamped.

No no, you got it all wrong. DLA is like Friday's but they didn't pay the piper on Thursday so John and Freddie over at the Pancake House at the other end of the parking lot pay them a visit, you understand? Now John is a part-time bartender over at Applebee's, which is Kirkland, but he's a friend of mine. He gets me my drinks for free, but he's quick with a joke, ought to light up your smoke but there's some place he'd rather be so he applies for a job with Jimmy whose still in the Navy. For our purposes, Jimmy is Sull-Crom. Jimmy will probably be there for life, but the waitress has moved in house over at Chase. Jimmy and the Waitress practice together sometimes on deals named Project Loneliness, but it sure as hell beats practicing alone.


180

crib
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby crib » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:04 pm

BernieTrump wrote:
TheoO wrote:The four year JD/MBA nearly screwed someone I know at their T6 OCI. He had above mendian grades but none of the firms wanted to touch him for fear that he would bail and go b-side.


I've seen something similar, anecdotally. It only hurts marginal applicants.

Bigger Picture: Everyone here is at least moderately sharp, so consider this. What does it say about the job if the people hiring for it are that afraid of their employees having any other options? Perhaps that it's not a job people tend to like or want to stay in? What does it tell you that they assume you'll want to leave?

Private equity firms, consulting firms, most "good" jobs. They're not afraid of hiring people who could be hired somewhere else.


lol@ law firms, consulting firms etc. "fearing" that someone would bail and quit. They would be happy to hire such people.

BernieTrump
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby BernieTrump » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:12 pm

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Last edited by BernieTrump on Thu May 11, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

crib
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby crib » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:27 pm

BernieTrump wrote:
crib wrote:
BernieTrump wrote:
TheoO wrote:The four year JD/MBA nearly screwed someone I know at their T6 OCI. He had above mendian grades but none of the firms wanted to touch him for fear that he would bail and go b-side.


I've seen something similar, anecdotally. It only hurts marginal applicants.

Bigger Picture: Everyone here is at least moderately sharp, so consider this. What does it say about the job if the people hiring for it are that afraid of their employees having any other options? Perhaps that it's not a job people tend to like or want to stay in? What does it tell you that they assume you'll want to leave?

Private equity firms, consulting firms, most "good" jobs. They're not afraid of hiring people who could be hired somewhere else.


lol@ law firms, consulting firms etc. "fearing" that someone would bail and quit. They would be happy to hire such people.


Law firms unquestionably avoid hiring people that they don't think want to stay around until midlevel. You're not very profitable until years 3-6. Attrition is the model, yes, and we know people will leave before year 3 (we'll push them out at that time if they can't be a good midlevel and some will leave on their own). But we actively try to avoid people who we think likely to quit, who won't be around even if we like them. Better to hire someone who we get decide is one of our midlevels It's one of the things we're taught to access during interviews. This is from experience. I did a lot of recruiting as a midlevel. As a senior, I do a lot of bills and see a lot of junior time written off. They're likely still somewhat profitable, even after overhead and writeoffs, but midlevels are where PPP is made.

We agree on the other jobs.


Maybe true, but it's the same thing in consulting. For now you seem to have an unrealistically optimistic view of b-school and consulting (or of all other jobs for that matter). As a mid-level, I don't really like biglaw either, so I'm not trying to defend it. In some ways it's worse than my previous engineering gig, but it's not like engineering careers go anywhere either. If you find yourself in an area of tech that gets obsolete after you spend 10 years in it, the situation could be worse than yours.

J90
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby J90 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:46 pm

BernieTrump, where do the people doing private M&A work at firms end up? I understand you don't find it interesting or desirable. A lot of firms build their business models around it, though - where do they exit to?

Are they leaving to the same jobs public M&A associates would, except perhaps with more effort to get those jobs? Or is it a different type of in-house position?

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star fox
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby star fox » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:47 pm

TheoO wrote:The four year JD/MBA nearly screwed someone I know at their T6 OCI. He had above mendian grades but none of the firms wanted to touch him for fear that he would bail and go b-side.

So by "nearly" you mean he got a job?

TheoO
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby TheoO » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:48 pm

star fox wrote:
TheoO wrote:The four year JD/MBA nearly screwed someone I know at their T6 OCI. He had above mendian grades but none of the firms wanted to touch him for fear that he would bail and go b-side.

So by "nearly" you mean he got a job?


He struck out, but ended up as an investment banker. His wife worked at a firm, is now in-house and is trying to leave law also.

This actually the fear the firms had: that he would summer with them but would decide on some business side job. His grades were solid, from what he told me, and his bidding strategic, but that MBA (and the extra year that came with it) were sort of an EIP kiss of death.

not possible
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Postby not possible » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:53 pm

BernieTrump -

If you were me, would you take a position at a start up financial services firm (investment management) and leave NY big law corporate (v100) after 9 months on the job? Pay would go from 160 to 130 and I have 50k in loans. Curious as to your advice. Thank you




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