Understanding Federal Hiring Forum

[Bearlyalive]

Hello everyone,

0L trying to figure out a few things related to Federal hiring:

1) For the Honors Program (DOJ and others), how important is demonstrated commitment in terms of summer employment? I definitely hope that I'll be able to work with the DOJ during my 1L summer, but do people going after Honors still do 2L SAs, or do they do another summer of work for the government? If commitment is an important factor during hiring, what things can a student do during law school to show their interest?

2) Failing managing to land an Honors position, what does a typical Biglaw -> BigFed career path look like? Is it important to work in DC to establish connections, or can you work in NYC/LA and other markets? Is Biglaw even a viable feeder, and if not what other kinds of work would give you a better shot? How many years would it take working in Biglaw/other before the transition becomes viable?

3) What kind of work experience is valuable (within Biglaw and other careers) to BigFed? For Biglaw, does it matter where you work (preftige of firm, etc.), or are the area and quality of your work more important?

Any additional advice outside these questions is definitely appreciated. I am adverse to working Biglaw longterm, but I think I could start my career there and survive for a few years if it was possible to transition to government down the line. If that's not possible or extremely unlikely, it'd be nice to know that so I can make an informed choice about where to go to school.

[jimmythecatdied6]

Step one: get into a top law school and get top grades. Everything else will work itself out.

[tsujimoto74]

Step one: get into a top law school and get top grades. Everything else will work itself out.

Honestly, looking at where the DOJ hires Honors program lawyers from, it really doesn't seem to matter at all what school you go to. Yeah, they hire from the T14, but they also hire from everywhere else, including TTT schools. Source: https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools

I'm guessing grades, demonstrated interest, and relevant experience trump school prestige.

[lurker816]

Tagging for interest, but as someone who is probably striking out as far as T14 admissions are concerned, I did some stalking of both DOJ and non-DOJ honors pages and was definitely relieved to see a wide array of schools represented...

[seagan823]

0L here, so im only sharing from what I have read on this forum, but it seems like the best steps to take early are stellar grades and law review. Big fed seems to value academics more than other PI hires, so while I don't know about how externships/clinics/coursework affect things, fantastic academic credentials seem like a necessary condition. However, as someone noted, they hire from many different schools. I don't know if they weight grades and rank by school like big law does but would be really interested to find that iut

[zot1]

You don't have to go to a top 14, I didn't.

You have to be at least top 30% of your class when you're applying. Some agencies take top 50% but they are rare.

You need either law review or moot court. Most agencies want this.

Your experience needs to reflect public interest commitment. It is a lot better for you if you also have federal government experience.

If you're applying to an agency that does a specific type of law, you must have classes on the topic. Even though experience in the area can also help you overcome the lack of classes, since your experience would likely be state law rather than federal, it will likely not cut it.

You don't have to be in DC to get an honors position. DC hires people all over the country. However, agencies also have non-DC offices that gets some students from the honors program.

If you don't get in through honors, which is incredibly hard to begin with, you can just keep applying for openings on usajobs. Although some agencies might post jobs on their website directly. The postings I see vary in terms of experience required: 1 year, 3, 5, and 10.

I don't really know anyone who worked as an SA and then got an honors program. But I don't know every HP ever so it's possible it's happened. I'm sure you can say that after doing the SA you had the sudden realization that public service was for you. But personally, if I have this resume versus tons of others with people who starved over the summer to serve the government, I'll interview them instead.

Hope this helps.

[jimmythecatdied6]

Step one: get into a top law school and get top grades. Everything else will work itself out.

Honestly, looking at where the DOJ hires Honors program lawyers from, it really doesn't seem to matter at all what school you go to. Yeah, they hire from the T14, but they also hire from everywhere else, including TTT schools. Source: https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools

I'm guessing grades, demonstrated interest, and relevant experience trump school prestige.

Absolutely not. I would guess diversity status trumps prestige, but that is about it.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Again, this is wrong; see the list of schools DOJ honors hires from. The thing to remember is that the federal government encompasses TONS of different agencies and so you're going to get variation in what any given hiring official looks for. Some will care about prestige (for instance, DOJ civil rights tends to have top school grads, from what I can tell), but my experience has been that high grades at a less prestigious school trumps median grades at a top school. (Of course if you can have top grades and a prestigious school, that's a great position to be in, but top grades from a non-prestigious school work too.)

And yes, commitment and experience are important. The top school grads I've seen get hired have all still had relevant experience and demonstrated commitment to the mission of whoever hired them.

I get that people at top schools want that pedigree to matter, but I've met people in federal employment from absolutely every range of school. Top school alone isn't going to get you into the federal government.

[tsujimoto74]

Gonna throw some of my own questions in here, since DOJ Honors is basically my dream outcome (particularly Civil Rights division)...
Anon Y. Mouse, you mentioned that as a division that's more particular in hiring process about which school you came from. I applied late-ish, so I'm still waiting on offers and don't know exactly where I'll be next fall, but how big is the prestige factor, by your estimation? Would top grades at a T-20 school be good enough to give me a chance, or is T-14 a significant advantage?

I assume spending 1 summer working for the DOJ would be a great start to getting experience and demonstrating interest. Would spending 2 summers there (if possible) be worthwhile, or are there other things they like to see on your resume?

Lastly, let's assume I whiff and don't get hired there, because that's by far the more probable outcome. What other jobs would help me get there eventually? eg, NPO work, state government work, etc.?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I am not claiming to be an expert - and honestly some of my info comes from LinkedIn stalking of honors attorneys. All I can say is that when I've been able to track down civil rights honors attorney's, they tend to have top credentials. The most stereotypical one I found had Yale undergrad, Harvard JD, a SDNY clerkship and a 9th Cir clerkship, but others weren't too far behind.

But the top school isn't a requirement. And even then I'm not sure how much a shot at being the one of 12 people (in a good year) hired into DOJ civil rights should influence your choice of schools. I would not pay more for T14 over T20 based on that, for instance - I would consider employment stats vs. cost more generally, rather than tie more debt to a hypothetical unquantifiable boost for one specific selective job. And I do get the sense - though this is totally unscientific - that DOJ is kind of like the Yale or Berkeley of federal hiring, in that they do look at the whole application in a more holistic fashion. At least, more so than biglaw, which seems to look first at grades and school, and then how well you can carry a 20-minute interview. (which kind of makes sense, since it's seems to me it's harder to get a lot of experience relevant for, say, high-level corporate transactional practice before or during law school).

The way to demonstrate interest/get experience is going to depend a lot on what kind of job you want. People talk about DOJ honors like its a monolith, but what BOP looks for will be different from what civil rights looks for which will be different from what civil looks for. So I don't think you have to work only for DOJ (though if you can intern in the division where you want to end up, that's great). If you're interested in civil rights and want to work on voting fraud, intern for your state's election department or something else related. If you want to do education stuff, working for a local firm that represents parents in disputes with schools would be great. If you want to end up in the civil division, a SA doing civil litigation would be great. If you want criminal, do your school's criminal clinic.

I don't personally know enough about the civil rights division to say what would be relevant experience, but if that's what interests you you probably can think of good experiences.

This is going to sound dumb, but honestly going to the DOJ website and really looking at all the components and figuring out what they actually do is really helpful. There's a lot of helpful information for thinking about what experience you'd want to get. (You may well have done this already.)

[Fed_Atty]

Another possible route into a federal attorney job is to do a tour as a JAG. A lot of the attorneys in office are former JAGs. JAG isn't nearly as competitive as it was when the economy was really bad.

[zot1]

Another possible route into a federal attorney job is to do a tour as a JAG. A lot of the attorneys in office are former JAGs. JAG isn't nearly as competitive as it was when the economy was really bad.

JAG is still very competitive today.

[Fed_Atty]

Another possible route into a federal attorney job is to do a tour as a JAG. A lot of the attorneys in office are former JAGs. JAG isn't nearly as competitive as it was when the economy was really bad.

JAG is still very competitive today.

I guess it depends on what you consider competitive.

[zot1]

Another possible route into a federal attorney job is to do a tour as a JAG. A lot of the attorneys in office are former JAGs. JAG isn't nearly as competitive as it was when the economy was really bad.

JAG is still very competitive today.

I guess it depends on what you consider competitive.

The selection rates for the boards fluctuate between 5 and 15%. Those odds are not any better than the honors programs. Plus, JAG Corps look for additional attributes, like physical fitness, that honors programs do not necessarily need to worry about.

However, I will concede that depending on the branch you have multiple chances to get there since some allow you to apply 1L and 2L years. But even then, those programs have even lower selection rates and you incur additional military obligations than someone being picked 3L year.

[Fed_Atty]

Are you a former JAG?

[zot1]

No. It was a possible career path for me. I went through the cycle a few times (and didn't get selected!). I know many current and former JAGs as a result of my experiences during the app cycles.

It was brutal alright.

[RSN]

2) Failing managing to land an Honors position, what does a typical Biglaw -> BigFed career path look like? Is it important to work in DC to establish connections, or can you work in NYC/LA and other markets? Is Biglaw even a viable feeder, and if not what other kinds of work would give you a better shot? How many years would it take working in Biglaw/other before the transition becomes viable?

3) What kind of work experience is valuable (within Biglaw and other careers) to BigFed? For Biglaw, does it matter where you work (preftige of firm, etc.), or are the area and quality of your work more important?

Can anyone speak a little more to OP's second and third questions? As a 1L generally interested in that career path (DC Biglaw -> gov't) I'd be curious to hear any other thoughts on what kind of experience is good to build during school/while at a firm, what firms are more open to people with interest in government, to the extent that that's possible to know, and what kinds of opportunities exist (maybe beyond DOJ and AUSA gigs, which seem to get most of the focus). I know TLS has kind of a dearth of current/former DC Biglaw attorneys, but would appreciate any impressions people might have.

[Aeon]

2) Failing managing to land an Honors position, what does a typical Biglaw -> BigFed career path look like? Is it important to work in DC to establish connections, or can you work in NYC/LA and other markets? Is Biglaw even a viable feeder, and if not what other kinds of work would give you a better shot? How many years would it take working in Biglaw/other before the transition becomes viable?

3) What kind of work experience is valuable (within Biglaw and other careers) to BigFed? For Biglaw, does it matter where you work (preftige of firm, etc.), or are the area and quality of your work more important?

Can anyone speak a little more to OP's second and third questions? As a 1L generally interested in that career path (DC Biglaw -> gov't) I'd be curious to hear any other thoughts on what kind of experience is good to build during school/while at a firm, what firms are more open to people with interest in government, to the extent that that's possible to know, and what kinds of opportunities exist (maybe beyond DOJ and AUSA gigs, which seem to get most of the focus). I know TLS has kind of a dearth of current/former DC Biglaw attorneys, but would appreciate any impressions people might have.

Second Question

There isn't any single typical BigLaw-to-BigFed career path. Much depends on whether you're transactional or litigation. By and large, there are more opportunities for general litigation associates in the federal government (i.e.: most of DOJ) than for general corporate people (those positions tend to involve reviewing contracts for agencies, etc.). If you're specialized in a certain area of the law, that can open up additional opportunities. For example, environmental lawyers have the EPA, securities lawyers have the SEC and bank regulators, communications lawyers have the FCC, tax lawyers have the IRS and Treasury, and so forth.

The federal governments has a presence in various cities, but with a few notable exceptions, the majority of positions and opportunities for further advancement are in DC. It isn't strictly necessary to practice in DC to have a shot at BigFed, and plenty of people lateral into federal government jobs from all over the country. However, being in DC might give you a slight advantage in securing a position for two main reasons. Firstly, if you participate in professional associations, you will meet people who practice in your respective field, including government lawyers, and build up a network that can in future help you find out about openings and get your resume to the top of the pile. Secondly, the big, old DC firms (think Covington, A&P, Hogan, and their ilk) often function as revolving doors, with many alumni currently in government and many former government lawyers practicing at those firms now. In a town where connections are key, this can be helpful.

BigLaw is indeed a viable feeder for BigFed, especially for the more prestige-conscious positions, such as in the DOJ or AUSAs. There is considerable variation in the approximate number of years to be a tenable candidate for a government job, but I've generally seen 3 years as a reasonable minimum for most positions.

Third Question

There's no single category of work experience that is most valuable for BigFed. A great deal depends on your specialization. General corporate lawyers have a more difficult time finding federal government jobs, as there aren't too many openings meeting their expertise. General litigation of course opens up many civil and criminal BigFed avenues. Usually, the more responsibility and experience you have, the better your chances of finding a job. Government lawyers often take on greater responsibilities earlier in their careers than do BigLaw associates.

The area and quality of your work naturally are quite important. The prestige of your BigLaw firm might help, though not necessarily tracking the Vault rankings. For example, the old-guard DC firms (as mentioned above, Covington, A&P, and Hogan are emblematic of this type) punch well above their Vault weight in DC, compared with the secondary outposts of out-of-town firms. But there is nonetheless much variability depending on your particular area of practice and other factors.

[zot1]

DOJ is in charge of the litigation for all of the other agencies.

All of the other agencies (and there are TONS) do mostly transactional work (advisory capacity, contracts, legal reviews). The litigation these agencies would handle are administrative (labor boards, contract boards).

However, DOJ is larger and has more openings.

So if you're not a litigator, look at every agency but DOJ.

[Nebby]

2) Failing managing to land an Honors position, what does a typical Biglaw -> BigFed career path look like? Is it important to work in DC to establish connections, or can you work in NYC/LA and other markets? Is Biglaw even a viable feeder, and if not what other kinds of work would give you a better shot? How many years would it take working in Biglaw/other before the transition becomes viable?

3) What kind of work experience is valuable (within Biglaw and other careers) to BigFed? For Biglaw, does it matter where you work (preftige of firm, etc.), or are the area and quality of your work more important?

Can anyone speak a little more to OP's second and third questions? As a 1L generally interested in that career path (DC Biglaw -> gov't) I'd be curious to hear any other thoughts on what kind of experience is good to build during school/while at a firm, what firms are more open to people with interest in government, to the extent that that's possible to know, and what kinds of opportunities exist (maybe beyond DOJ and AUSA gigs, which seem to get most of the focus). I know TLS has kind of a dearth of current/former DC Biglaw attorneys, but would appreciate any impressions people might have.

You're at CLS, right? Do the DC Externship

[Nebby]

Things you'll need to make yourself competitive as an entry-level attorney for a fed position:

1) School rank doesn't really matter, except for a place like DOJ Civil Rights Division (it doesn't matter at all for most federal agencies)

2) Good grades help a lot, so please work hard in school

3) Previous federal experience is huge!!! You have to spend at least one summer or a full-time semester externship in the federal government prior to 3L Fall semester. More than one experience is even better--and I recommend, if you want to do two federal experiences, to do them at different places.

4) If you want to work at a particular agency post grad, then working at that agency prior to 3L fall will help you tremendously. Known commodities are always better than unknown applicants

5) Practice, practice, practice interviewing with your school's career services office. Interviewing skills are huge

6) LUCK

I went through the whole process this Fall, and though I accepted an offer elsewhere, it was a good experience and a lot of what I know was learned through that experience.

[RSN]

2) Failing managing to land an Honors position, what does a typical Biglaw -> BigFed career path look like? Is it important to work in DC to establish connections, or can you work in NYC/LA and other markets? Is Biglaw even a viable feeder, and if not what other kinds of work would give you a better shot? How many years would it take working in Biglaw/other before the transition becomes viable?

3) What kind of work experience is valuable (within Biglaw and other careers) to BigFed? For Biglaw, does it matter where you work (preftige of firm, etc.), or are the area and quality of your work more important?

Can anyone speak a little more to OP's second and third questions? As a 1L generally interested in that career path (DC Biglaw -> gov't) I'd be curious to hear any other thoughts on what kind of experience is good to build during school/while at a firm, what firms are more open to people with interest in government, to the extent that that's possible to know, and what kinds of opportunities exist (maybe beyond DOJ and AUSA gigs, which seem to get most of the focus). I know TLS has kind of a dearth of current/former DC Biglaw attorneys, but would appreciate any impressions people might have.

You're at CLS, right? Do the DC Externship

Yup, just interested in any broader perspective

[Nebby]

2) Failing managing to land an Honors position, what does a typical Biglaw -> BigFed career path look like? Is it important to work in DC to establish connections, or can you work in NYC/LA and other markets? Is Biglaw even a viable feeder, and if not what other kinds of work would give you a better shot? How many years would it take working in Biglaw/other before the transition becomes viable?

3) What kind of work experience is valuable (within Biglaw and other careers) to BigFed? For Biglaw, does it matter where you work (preftige of firm, etc.), or are the area and quality of your work more important?

Can anyone speak a little more to OP's second and third questions? As a 1L generally interested in that career path (DC Biglaw -> gov't) I'd be curious to hear any other thoughts on what kind of experience is good to build during school/while at a firm, what firms are more open to people with interest in government, to the extent that that's possible to know, and what kinds of opportunities exist (maybe beyond DOJ and AUSA gigs, which seem to get most of the focus). I know TLS has kind of a dearth of current/former DC Biglaw attorneys, but would appreciate any impressions people might have.

You're at CLS, right? Do the DC Externship

Yup, just interested in any broader perspective

Of the former biglaw people I met at EPA, all of them did litigation of some variety

[RSN]

2) Failing managing to land an Honors position, what does a typical Biglaw -> BigFed career path look like? Is it important to work in DC to establish connections, or can you work in NYC/LA and other markets? Is Biglaw even a viable feeder, and if not what other kinds of work would give you a better shot? How many years would it take working in Biglaw/other before the transition becomes viable?

3) What kind of work experience is valuable (within Biglaw and other careers) to BigFed? For Biglaw, does it matter where you work (preftige of firm, etc.), or are the area and quality of your work more important?

Can anyone speak a little more to OP's second and third questions? As a 1L generally interested in that career path (DC Biglaw -> gov't) I'd be curious to hear any other thoughts on what kind of experience is good to build during school/while at a firm, what firms are more open to people with interest in government, to the extent that that's possible to know, and what kinds of opportunities exist (maybe beyond DOJ and AUSA gigs, which seem to get most of the focus). I know TLS has kind of a dearth of current/former DC Biglaw attorneys, but would appreciate any impressions people might have.

You're at CLS, right? Do the DC Externship

Yup, just interested in any broader perspective

Of the former biglaw people I met at EPA, all of them did litigation of some variety

Makes sense. A little off topic, but out of curiosity, were any of them from the so-called top environmental programs? I've always been skeptical that that's a real thing - why would you be going to Vermont Law School or Lewis and Clark if your LSAT was above 155? Seems like if you can get into a T14 you have as good if not better opportunities for enviro or any other policy speciality, unless there actually is a strong alumni base from those schools working at EPA and other agencies who prefer to hire grads from their schools.

[Nebby]

2) Failing managing to land an Honors position, what does a typical Biglaw -> BigFed career path look like? Is it important to work in DC to establish connections, or can you work in NYC/LA and other markets? Is Biglaw even a viable feeder, and if not what other kinds of work would give you a better shot? How many years would it take working in Biglaw/other before the transition becomes viable?

3) What kind of work experience is valuable (within Biglaw and other careers) to BigFed? For Biglaw, does it matter where you work (preftige of firm, etc.), or are the area and quality of your work more important?

Can anyone speak a little more to OP's second and third questions? As a 1L generally interested in that career path (DC Biglaw -> gov't) I'd be curious to hear any other thoughts on what kind of experience is good to build during school/while at a firm, what firms are more open to people with interest in government, to the extent that that's possible to know, and what kinds of opportunities exist (maybe beyond DOJ and AUSA gigs, which seem to get most of the focus). I know TLS has kind of a dearth of current/former DC Biglaw attorneys, but would appreciate any impressions people might have.

You're at CLS, right? Do the DC Externship

Yup, just interested in any broader perspective

Of the former biglaw people I met at EPA, all of them did litigation of some variety

Makes sense. A little off topic, but out of curiosity, were any of them from the so-called top environmental programs? I've always been skeptical that that's a real thing - why would you be going to Vermont Law School or Lewis and Clark if your LSAT was above 155? Seems like if you can get into a T14 you have as good if not better opportunities for enviro or any other policy speciality, unless there actually is a strong alumni base from those schools working at EPA and other agencies who prefer to hire grads from their schools.

The ex-biglaw were from East Coast T14s. However, there were quite a few Vermont and Lewis & Clark grads, but they were hired entry-level or lateralled from nonbiglaw