If one of the greater problems of the legal market are some law schools, why don't we just find a way to shut them down! Forum

[fats provolone]

offer loans at 3% fixed but jumps to 15% if you don't hit GPA thresholds. with early payment penalties so they don't refi

[PeanutsNJam]

offer loans at 3% fixed but jumps to 15% if you don't hit GPA thresholds. with early payment penalties so they don't refi

Problem is if they don't hit the GPA thresholds, interest rates wouldn't matter. They can't pay back any number of debt. I'm not the govt, I can't make it non-dischargeable.

What I can do is offer loans at 8% fixed for 1L, but if they hit a class rank threshold allow them to renew for 4% for 2L and 3L. If they're below a certain rank (depending on school), no more loans.

[anyriotgirl]

offer loans at 3% fixed but jumps to 15% if you don't hit GPA thresholds. with early payment penalties so they don't refi

Problem is if they don't hit the GPA thresholds, interest rates wouldn't matter. They can't pay back any number of debt. I'm not the govt, I can't make it non-dischargeable.

What I can do is offer loans at 8% fixed for 1L, but if they hit a class rank threshold allow them to renew for 4% for 2L and 3L. If they're below a certain rank (depending on school), no more loans.

can't you just make it contingent on getting an SA by a certain date?

[fats provolone]

private student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy bruh

[PeanutsNJam]

Idk man I still think it'd be a loss.

8% fixed 1L. If hit rank threshold, can renew for 4% 2L.

If get 2L summer offer or judicial clerkship, can renew for 3% 3L.

Early payment penalties so they don't refinance the 8% rates if they don't hit the GPA threshold. No loans 2L+3L if class rank too low.

[lacrossebrother]

Most of the challenge here isn't deciding loan terms but figuring out a real douchey marketing strategy about "changing the game" but in fact being exactly like payday loans. See, e.g. Kabbage/karrot, lending club, etc.

[PeanutsNJam]

Feed the elitism. "Rewarding Excellence", "T-14 only", ~*~**~Prestige~**~*~

"An investment in America's future elite."

Give swag packages. Cuff links, tie clips, rings. Free preftigious watch upon full repayment.

[Big Dog]

offer loans at 3% fixed but jumps to 15% if you don't hit GPA thresholds. with early payment penalties so they don't refi

Even if they hit grades, there are few jobs for TTT grads. So, no chance for payback.

[fats provolone]

offer loans at 3% fixed but jumps to 15% if you don't hit GPA thresholds. with early payment penalties so they don't refi

Even if they hit grades, there are few jobs for TTT grads. So, no chance for payback.

who said anything about TTTs. law students everywhere have inflated grade expectations

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

The best solution is to offer less-than-6.5% loans to (1) 2Ls who have BL SAs lined up and (2) 3Ls who have post-grad BL offers that they have accepted. (School rank is unnecessary: a TTT grad with a BL SA is a better loan candidate than someone from Yale doing PI.) That way you offer them more competitive rates than the government does currently, and you have a stable return from a smart, responsible, well-paid population that offers 200-300% returns of 10-year Treasury's.

This plan has the socially-desirable side-effect of potentially effecting change, because the government will then have to subsidize an increasing number of unprofitable loans (TTT students generally, PI/govt employees under PSLF). Even if the government continued to subsidize such loans, interest rates would likely rise until some demand for TTTs decreased.

[fats provolone]

The best solution is to offer less-than-6.5% loans to (1) 2Ls who have BL SAs lined up and (2) 3Ls who have post-grad BL offers that they have accepted. (School rank is unnecessary: a TTT grad with a BL SA is a better loan candidate than someone from Yale doing PI.) That way you offer them more competitive rates than the government does currently, and you have a stable return from a smart, responsible, well-paid population that offers 200-300% returns of 10-year Treasury's.

This plan has the socially-desirable side-effect of potentially effecting change, because the government will then have to subsidize an increasing number of unprofitable loans (TTT students generally, PI/govt employees under PSLF). Even if the government continued to subsidize an increasingly unprofitable set of loans, interest rates would likely rise until some demand for TTTs decreased.

well then you're just SoFi

[AReasonableMan]

First of all a problem would exist even if the bad law schools were shut down. The problem is not only that there are too many lawyers per capita, but also that there's still a significant undersupply of lawyers in many demographics. The issue is that the high cost of attendance to many schools makes it impossible for many lawyers notwithstanding PAYE.

Also passing a minimum LSAT requirement or something similar to get government loans would undoubtedly have a discriminatory impact. It would be difficult to argue that such a number would not violate Title VII. In lawsuits against state schools who rely on the LSAT in admissions decisions, in ruling for the schools, courts have generally relied on the fact that the LSAT is only one factor in admissions and that there are other law schools available. A minimum LSAT for loans would be tantamount to saying they can't go.

[totesTheGoat]

Capping loans is a bad solution. Then, only people with rich families could go to good schools. It would serve only to further increase the gap between the rich and everyone else. It goes against the fundamental principles this country was founded upon. It would result in much less diversity in our classrooms. No genuine politician would support such a plan (you may get Trump on board)

I read my Declaration of Independence and my Constitution again. I must have missed the part where it said "Everybody is entitled to go to graduate school on their neighbors' dime."

It's amazing how many people want to fix a system that was broken due to taking market forces out of the equation by attempting to take even more market forces out of the equation.

The bad solution is continuing this political fiction that your neighbors (or the eeeeeeeevul 1%) are somehow morally and legally required to give you a subsidized education. Guess what, more and more unqualified candidates will go to more and more unqualified law schools if we keep insulating the unqualified candidates and the unqualified law schools from the consequences of their shitty decisions.

You want to fix the law school issue (and the student debt issue as a whole)? Allow lenders to discriminate based on major, GPA, and testing scores. When you're facing a loan at a 49% interest rate that is required to be cosigned and secured by your parents' house because you're a 2.5 GPA legal studies grad with a 142 LSAT, you're going to think twice about borrowing the money (if your parents were stupid enough to cosign and secure the loan with their house). Of course, the cries of a million entitled victims would be heard 'round the world.

[fats provolone]

very nuanced

[FutureLitigator]

How do you propose shutting down the bad law schools?

x100

Also, even if somehow you were able to shut down the "bad law schools" all you would really be doing is "bulldoze" a bunch of jobs in each respective economy.

[pleadthafif]

Post removed...

[fats provolone]

and we're back full circle to DAE le stem

[TLSModBot]

The whole choosing majors and professions is just wildly inefficient. We should have computers assess individual aptitudes for particular jobs, balanced with the large-scale need for said jobs. A perfect system!

[totesTheGoat]

[seashell.economy]

Shorten the time required for law school and/or segment law into different 1-year courses (family law 1-year certificate, tenants rights 1-year certificate, etc) and charge a fraction of the cost.

So many low-income people need lawyers but cannot afford them. Low income legal clinics where people drop-in for appointments by and large suck, and that's IF you can manage to obtain an appointment in the first place. And orgs focusing on serving low-income people are incredibly pressed for resources. I know one org that took around 18,000 calls one year, could only marginally assist 2,000 of those people over the phone (mostly by referring them to the aforementioned legal clinics), and could only significantly assist or represent around 170 out of the 2,000. A huge part of that is not having enough lawyers to do the job. Lowering the cost and shortening the time to attend law school might attract many folks who are interested in law into the public interest sector, but would otherwise attend for 3 years and then strike out on the job market.

[SemperLegal]

Require all graduate schools to cosign a portion of student loans. The rest takes care of itself.

[Big Dog]

A huge part of that is not having enough lawyers to do the job. Lowering the cost

Except that does nothing to help the poor be able to pay for the services. If they don't have the money, they don't have the money. Even if lawyers were willing to work for minimum wage, the poor can't even pay that amount, when many are working minimum wage themselves, in part-time jobs. (Think about it.)

[fats provolone]

A huge part of that is not having enough lawyers to do the job. Lowering the cost

Except that does nothing to help the poor be able to pay for the services. If they don't have the money, they don't have the money. Even if lawyers were willing to work for minimum wage, the poor can't even pay that amount, when many are working minimum wage themselves, in part-time jobs. (Think about it.)

guys i figured it out. let people take out student loans to pay for legal services.

[seashell.economy]

A huge part of that is not having enough lawyers to do the job. Lowering the cost

Except that does nothing to help the poor be able to pay for the services. If they don't have the money, they don't have the money. Even if lawyers were willing to work for minimum wage, the poor can't even pay that amount, when many are working minimum wage themselves, in part-time jobs. (Think about it.)

I'm poor and I've experienced these issues personally. And when I say "poor" I mean raising a family in abject poverty, working several minimum wage jobs. Still, I'd be willing to pay for reduced-cost legal services, if a crisis arose (and it has). I've been down the path of having to worm my way into legal clinics before. It is a very difficult process that is exacerbated by a lack of staff at each clinic. Some only book appointments one day out of the week ("Call on a Tuesday between 9am and 11am") and if you manage to book an appointment, it can be weeks until you are seen. If law schools used the example of a certificate system and charged, say, $20,000 for the certificate, I bet many more people would be willing to work serving the poor in low-income legal clinics, supplemented in part by city and state funds, in addition to the clients paying what they could.

[jnwa]

[

You want to fix the law school issue (and the student debt issue as a whole)? Allow lenders to discriminate based on major, GPA, and testing scores. When you're facing a loan at a 49% interest rate that is required to be cosigned and secured by your parents' house because you're a 2.5 GPA legal studies grad with a 142 LSAT, you're going to think twice about borrowing the money (if your parents were stupid enough to cosign and secure the loan with their house). Of course, the cries of a million entitled victims would be heard 'round the world.

This actually makes sense and im saying that as someone who did a social sciences undergrad. If we see school as an investment then the loans should be contingent on how smart the investment is. If would have the added benefit of incentivizing people to pursue degrees in high demand fields or if they really feel like pursuing an arts degree realize that it will cost them more via interest(under this system i would still take the same major). Additionally people here seem to forget that many people who end up going to TTT schools have undergraduate degrees that have worse job prospects that even TTT schools. If i have a major and the best job i can get with it pays me 12$ an hour, ill take the 120,000 loan and bet on myself to do well enough to be part of the 60% of TTT grads who get jobs that pay more than 40k a year. Is it a good idea, on balance probably not, but a lot of people see 60% employment and go, "i can be part of the 60" . So yes, the law schools prey on students natural inclination to believe they can do well given a fresh start and sufficient motivation but i feel like if i was a legal studies major with a 2.7 and a 155 lsat after 3 tries ...a 120k loan for a degree and a coinflips chance at middle class employment or better might be the best option i have.