If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

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Blueberrypie
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If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Blueberrypie » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:12 am

The market is bad for lawyers.

Go to a top school only to maximize your chances.

The salaries have been lowered tremendously and the decent/great pay goes to top graduates mostly.


Then why does the U.S. NWR still list it as a booming career that is hiring abundantly with a high average salary of $113k? Is U.S. NWR not reliable?


http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/s ... than-90k/6

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Clemenceau
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Clemenceau » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:17 am

Here we go again

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smaug
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby smaug » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:19 am

USNWR is not reliable.

Blueberrypie
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Blueberrypie » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:19 am

Clemenceau wrote:Here we go again


It is a question, you don't want to ride the ride then get off the horsey and go home.

I'm actually curious. You can call me w.e. name you see fit, as long as you answer the question.

Lawdood
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Lawdood » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:20 am

Blueberrypie wrote:The market is bad for lawyers.

Go to a top school only to maximize your chances.

The salaries have been lowered tremendously and the decent/great pay goes to top graduates mostly.


Then why does the U.S. NWR still list it as a booming career that is hiring abundantly with a high average salary of $113k? Is U.S. NWR not reliable?


http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/s ... than-90k/6


Because it is lucrative for the best students from the top schools (Big law). Not many other careers pay as much. The only ones I can think of are Ibanking( not really a CAREER), PE/VC/HF, doctors and maybe software engineers at Google.

Blueberrypie
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Blueberrypie » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:20 am

Jason Taverner wrote:USNWR is not reliable.


thanks.

However, doesn't the US NWR do the rankings for law schools?
Why reliable in one sense: the law school rankings, but literally fudge on some of the others?

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pancakes3
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby pancakes3 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:21 am

Blueberrypie wrote:Then why does the U.S. NWR still list it as a booming career that is hiring abundantly with a high average salary of $113k? Is U.S. NWR not reliable?


Are you stupid or just playing stupid?

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smaug
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby smaug » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:24 am

Blueberrypie wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:USNWR is not reliable.


thanks.

However, doesn't the US NWR do the rankings for law schools?
Why reliable in one sense: the law school rankings, but literally fudge on some of the others?

the USNWR rankings are only "reliable" in that they correctly acknowledge the top 14 law schools and the general order that those schools fall in, but that's debatable

they're not measuring outcomes or anything else when they put the rankings out

Blueberrypie
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Blueberrypie » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:24 am

Lawdood wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:The market is bad for lawyers.

Go to a top school only to maximize your chances.

The salaries have been lowered tremendously and the decent/great pay goes to top graduates mostly.


Then why does the U.S. NWR still list it as a booming career that is hiring abundantly with a high average salary of $113k? Is U.S. NWR not reliable?


http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/s ... than-90k/6


Because it is lucrative for the best students from the top schools (Big law). Not many other careers pay as much. The only ones I can think of are Ibanking( not really a CAREER), PE/VC/HF, doctors and maybe software engineers at Google.


Right, this was something I thought of, but if you look at some of the other careers listed, your schooling doesn't matter as much. Law schools and firms love prestige, but for doctors, dentist, and technology possess many of the top salaries, however they aren't concerned with what school you went to, as much.

For instance, most software engineers come out even keel with salary regardless of what institution they come from. Most will start off with good money. Law school is very narrow and only those from a select T-14 schools are guaranteed that figure salary, so it seems like law really shouldn't belong there, if the market only exist for a select few.

Blueberrypie
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Blueberrypie » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:27 am

pancakes3 wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:Then why does the U.S. NWR still list it as a booming career that is hiring abundantly with a high average salary of $113k? Is U.S. NWR not reliable?


Are you stupid or just playing stupid?


no, rather naïve? This isn't something fundamental that I must know, whether I should know this is a different question. Anyway, no, not knowing this specific piece of information hasn't resulted in any developmental delays. I graduated university early and easily with magna cum laude. I have a great job in finance. However, I'm just naïve on this subject.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:29 am

I didn't click your link, but the problem with these surveys is always a biased sample. It is indeed fairly lucrative to be a lawyer longterm, if you remain a lawyer. But the actually pertinent question for a prospective student is the salary of law school graduates. You would be surprised how many law school graduates are never able to find a job as a lawyer or are out of the law because of poor prospects relatively quickly.

Blueberrypie
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Blueberrypie » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:32 am

Elston Gunn wrote:I didn't click your link, but the problem with these surveys is always a biased sample. It is indeed fairly lucrative to be a lawyer longterm, if you remain a lawyer. But the actually pertinent question for a prospective student is the salary of law school graduates. You would be surprised how many law school graduates are never able to find a job as a lawyer or are out of the law because of poor prospects relatively quickly.


I see, thanks! :)

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pancakes3
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby pancakes3 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:39 am

Blueberrypie wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:Then why does the U.S. NWR still list it as a booming career that is hiring abundantly with a high average salary of $113k? Is U.S. NWR not reliable?


Are you stupid or just playing stupid?


no, rather naïve? This isn't something fundamental that I must know, whether I should know this is a different question. Anyway, no, not knowing this specific piece of information hasn't resulted in any developmental delays. I graduated university early and easily with magna cum laude. I have a great job in finance. However, I'm just naïve on this subject.


It just seems like for someone who's been on the site for 2 years, has openly acknowledged the less-than-optimal employment stats for TT's, is bold enough to offer admissions advice, and with your very *impressive* credentials ought to know better - to a degree where naivete is not a reasonable excuse.

Basically, I think you're either inherently and/or willfully stupid for not seeing how "average salary of attorneys" does not include those who attend law school but do not become attorneys into the calculus.

Blueberrypie
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Blueberrypie » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:42 am

pancakes3 wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:Then why does the U.S. NWR still list it as a booming career that is hiring abundantly with a high average salary of $113k? Is U.S. NWR not reliable?


Are you stupid or just playing stupid?


no, rather naïve? This isn't something fundamental that I must know, whether I should know this is a different question. Anyway, no, not knowing this specific piece of information hasn't resulted in any developmental delays. I graduated university early and easily with magna cum laude. I have a great job in finance. However, I'm just naïve on this subject.


It just seems like for someone who's been on the site for 2 years, has openly acknowledged the less-than-optimal employment stats for TT's, is bold enough to offer admissions advice, and with your very *impressive* credentials ought to know better - to a degree where naivete is not a reasonable excuse.

Basically, I think you're either inherently and/or willfully stupid for not seeing how "average salary of attorneys" does not include those who attend law school but do not become attorneys into the calculus.


hmm, I'm sensing an angry tone from your post. Don't stress yourself out. If my questions, opinions and the like bother you, try to ignore me. You'll do us both a favor. :)

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pancakes3
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby pancakes3 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:50 am

It'd probably do us both a favor but it'd be doing prospectives who consciously/subconsciously looking to reaffirm their potentially life-ruiningly bad decision a massive disservice - at the cost of satiating your naivete when again, really, you should know better.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:00 am

Maybe this will be easier for you to understand OP.

Say there are 1000 law students.

And there are 10 currently working lawyers, who are partners at big firms, and have been working for 20+ years. Their salary is, well, a lot.

There are 100 lawyer jobs for fresh graduates, most of which are 40-80k, some of which are 160k.

OMG! The AVERAGE SALARY FORL AWYERS IS 113k! OGM! OMGOMGOGMMGO~!

But do you see how simply giving an average salary, along with an incredibly vague statement like "hiring abundantly", is completely irrelevant?

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JohannDeMann
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:21 am

The truth is if you like law and last in it, you will almost assuredly make 6 figures relatively soon into your career (less than 8 years) regardless of what school you graduate from.

The problem is law sucks. About 80% of people don't like it and within 10 years 20% of the class you graduated with that became lawyers won't be lawyers anymore which prolly puts the number of jds who are lawyers after 10 years around 60%. The rest just stay in it because of the money and fear to do something else.

So yea average law salary is pretty good but everybody leaves law.

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AreJay711
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:30 am

The market is bad for many lawyers (and especially freshly minted lawyers), but it's very good for some, and good on average. The tenor of this board isn't about whether lawyers make more money than average -- they do -- it's whether spending $200k and missing out on 3 years of income and career advancement is worth it financially. You also need to understand that many people on these boards come from backgrounds where they pick up many of the soft skills people learn in law school -- like how to move among white collar people; how to drink professionally -- that are essential for career advancement.

For me, I think law school will turn out to be a good choice (assuming I'll land something decent out of my clerkships), but that's because I generally like being a lawyer. I don't know a good way to figure that out before you do it. You got to like being someone's bitch.

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Skool
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby Skool » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:57 am

JohannDeMann wrote:The truth is if you like law and last in it, you will almost assuredly make 6 figures relatively soon into your career (less than 8 years) regardless of what school you graduate from.
If your not in a management position at a non-profit PI firm, I've never known this to be true.

The only people making 6 figures in my current office founded the organization back in the 60s. My supervisor makes barely more than me (I'm a paralegal and I once accidentally opened her pay stub; she's been here almost ten years). Basically, you've got to be indispensable around here to be getting six figures.

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jbagelboy
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:04 pm

Blueberrypie wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:USNWR is not reliable.


thanks.

However, doesn't the US NWR do the rankings for law schools?
Why reliable in one sense: the law school rankings, but literally fudge on some of the others?


The rankings are not reliable.

None of what the us news and world report is reliable. They may occasionally happen upon actual data gathered by someone else and use or report it, but that doesn't make them reliable

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KMart
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby KMart » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:07 pm

Blueberry - I'm surprised people even responded to you.

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FullRamboLSGrad
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby FullRamboLSGrad » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:23 am

This board is too obsessed with Biglaw.

Law can be very lucrative and high paying especially in subfields like EP/Tax or depending on your market land use and development.

The wealthiest attorney I ever met was an EP/ Complex Tax Controversy attorney in a tertiary market who was a member of a 4 attorney firm of attorneys who do the exact same thing. He worked from home, built a hell of a client base, never advertised and when I was his paralegal he was bringing home over 700k/yr. I once met a Divorce lawyer in the same market who required a retainer of 20k to take your case. She would hire us as expert witness from time to time at a billing rate of 550/hr. I am family friends with a Personal I jury solo who has settled 5 cases over 500k.

This isnt to downplay the state of the legal market, but it's not only Biglaw that's lucrative, infact if your industrious you can really build something.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:06 am

Nobody said anything to the contrary.

xiao_long
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby xiao_long » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:09 am

I don't believe remuneration is the only driver motivating naïve people to apply to law schools. Of course, an elite lawyer has the potential to earn millions, which is seductive, but others do it for the social prestige afforded by the occupation, even if they have to make 40k a year with 100k in student loan debt. For some people, being able to tell others "I'm a lawyer" is worth its weight in gold. Of course, this only works effectively with layman and not someone in the know. How many of us on here are capable of being impressed by a "Cooley educated personal injury lawyer"? I bet the next generation will have a significantly less favorable view of law as a career, and it will be then when a significant number of TTTs close their doors for good. When I was growing up, my parents wished all us kids would become doctors or lawyers. When my own kids grow up, I will tell them to stay the heck away from law school. :D

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lacrossebrother
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Re: If the market is bad for lawyers, why is it listed as a lucrative profession on U.S. News and world report?

Postby lacrossebrother » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:16 am

Skool wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:The truth is if you like law and last in it, you will almost assuredly make 6 figures relatively soon into your career (less than 8 years) regardless of what school you graduate from.
If your not in a management position at a non-profit PI firm, I've never known this to be true.

The only people making 6 figures in my current office founded the organization back in the 60s. My supervisor makes barely more than me (I'm a paralegal and I once accidentally opened her pay stub; she's been here almost ten years). Basically, you've got to be indispensable around here to be getting six figures.

Ya wtf Johann. Please qualify your statement about making good money as a lawyer to not include the lawyers who have chosen to donate their time and live ultra modestly. Otherwise your statement is confusing.




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