Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

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jk148706
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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby jk148706 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:49 am

ndirish2010 wrote:
the "T20" is a meaningless distinction.

adil91
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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby adil91 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:11 pm

jk148706 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
the "T20" is a meaningless distinction.



Yeah better categories would be like HYS/CCN/PDBVMNC/ Georgetown, Texas,UCLA,Vanderbilt,USC/ Notre Dame,WUSTL,GW,Emory..then the rankings really don't matter from then on

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ndirish2010
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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:29 pm

adil91 wrote:
jk148706 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
the "T20" is a meaningless distinction.



Yeah better categories would be like HYS/CCN/PDBVMNC/ Georgetown, Texas,UCLA,Vanderbilt,USC/ Notre Dame,WUSTL,GW,Emory..then the rankings really don't matter from then on


Major anti-GULC trolling.

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bretby
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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby bretby » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:33 pm

I turned down T3 to take a full ride at a school outside T14. Given my career goals and life situation, minimizing debt made the most sense to me.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby totesTheGoat » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:07 pm

I turned down some money at a few T20s to (get more money and) go to a school outside the T20 part time. I'm heading into my 3E year fully confident in my future. Granted, I have an engineering degree and a few years of engineering career experience, so I'm cemented into patent prosecution. Due to my part time enrollment, I am adding actual experience doing the same work as the associates at my law firm, but with a smaller docket. Getting SAs for my 2E summer was relatively easy, to the point of turning down two or three offers. However, I was intentionally trying to get a feel for IP boutique firms, so no BigLaw this summer (I work at a BigLaw firm during the school year).

My classmates are a bit of a different story. Those who knew what they wanted from their law degree are doing well. Either they are top 25%, or they have the work experience to distance themselves from their peers. Those who wandered into law school looking for a big check are quickly waking up to the fact that they're going to be graduating with $200k in debt and a $45k job. There are plenty of opportunities that are available to those of us with science, engineering, and finance backgrounds, but it's pretty bleak for my classmates who went directly from a humanities major to part time law school, working 15 hrs/week at the local coffee shop to pay for booze.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby DportIA » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:13 pm

I have $13,000 of debt, today, as I sit here and study for the bar, from my full-ride T1. what up. Also looking at 160k start.

GO TO (a good) LAW SCHOOL FOR CHEAP AND PROFIT.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby trand31 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:06 am

I don't think this is an ill-conceived thread topic. It's common for law school students attending schools outside the top ranks to wonder if they made the right decision. I agree with a few of the other posts, but not many.

I do agree that prospective law school students should be aware of the economic/career costs and benefits resulting from the decision to attend law school, but I can't find a way to agree with the notion that attending law school is a waste of time if you are not able to make more than $45,000 a year as a result. Economics is understandably a paramount concern in such decisions, but education is a value in itself. Therefore, even if you are in $100,000 of debt and have few job prospects after graduation, you have not necessarily wasted your time because you HAVE received an education.

Personally, I am going to a law school outside the top 100 and I couldn't be more happy or confident in my decision. In fact, I could have gotten into much higher ranked schools, but decided that I would be much happier going to the school I am currently attending. I should also note that I LOVE practicing the law and I'll be happy regardless of how much money I get paid for doing it.

Additionally, much of this is also contingent upon the skills and talents you bring to the table as an individual. If you possess the passion, talent, and skills to be a great attorney, the law school you attend won't 'make or break' your career. I certainly agree that going to a top law school can substantially increase your chances of landing a good job after law school, but there are many successful attorneys out there who did not.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby ManoftheHour » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:45 am

DportIA wrote:I have $13,000 of debt, today, as I sit here and study for the bar, from my full-ride T1. what up. Also looking at 160k start.

GO TO (a good) LAW SCHOOL FOR CHEAP AND PROFIT.

I aspire to be you. I have a bit less debt from UG and will accrue no law school debt at all.

Unfortunately, it's almost OCI and I'm not top 10% so I'm kind of sad. Of course, if I get jerb, I'll probably say that going to my school was one of the best decisions I made in my life.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby chuckbass » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:00 am

ManoftheHour wrote:
DportIA wrote:I have $13,000 of debt, today, as I sit here and study for the bar, from my full-ride T1. what up. Also looking at 160k start.

GO TO (a good) LAW SCHOOL FOR CHEAP AND PROFIT.

I aspire to be you. I have a bit less debt from UG and will accrue no law school debt at all.

Unfortunately, it's almost OCI and I'm not top 10% so I'm kind of sad. Of course, if I get jerb, I'll probably say that going to my school was one of the best decisions I made in my life.

Prefacing this by saying you know I'm totally pulling for you and I hope things work out (and you know to hustle and I really think things will).

But as a counterpoint, I started at a T20 and got biglaw, but would never recommend someone do what I did if they want biglaw. There's just so much luck involved and so many other people that don't get biglaw that if biglaw is your goal, retake the LSAT until you can affordably go to a T14. There's a huge difference between vying for the top 10-20% of your class to have a shot at getting a job versus having to hit median. Sure, there are still loads of kids getting screwed at T14s, but the odds are significantly different.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby lawman84 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:18 am

I am going to a T1 school and would be plenty fine with my future if I stay. Right now, I'm considering transferring to HYS or Columbia because I want to pursue a dream. But if I do stay, I'll be just fine.

Then again, most people aren't going to have the same options I had going into law school. I knew that I was guaranteed a job out of law school so I wasn't too worried about "only" going to a T1 school. Especially when it's the top school in my state. Most people don't have that advantage which definitely should have an effect on where you go to school.

That all said, I don't think people's perspective should be T14 or bust unless you know you want biglaw. There are plenty of quality regional law schools that will get you a good job. Just don't go to them paying sticker price.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:06 am

Can someone link to a couple posts where people are portraying this "T14 or bust" mentality?

I read/post all the time and I genuinely don't know what you're referring to

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:13 am

ljfl at asking law students/lawyers if they are confident about their future or happy about their decisions

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby lawman84 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:06 pm

BigZuck wrote:Can someone link to a couple posts where people are portraying this "T14 or bust" mentality?

I read/post all the time and I genuinely don't know what you're referring to


I don't feel like digging through posts but I've seen plenty of retake or don't go to law school advice because they're not going to a T14.

And I don't think that's necessarily the wrong advice. There are certainly situations that it's the right advice.(like a person taking on debt that wants to work in biglaw) But it's not always the right advice.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:22 pm

lawman84 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Can someone link to a couple posts where people are portraying this "T14 or bust" mentality?

I read/post all the time and I genuinely don't know what you're referring to


I don't feel like digging through posts but I've seen plenty of retake or don't go to law school advice because they're not going to a T14.

And I don't think that's necessarily the wrong advice. There are certainly situations that it's the right advice.(like a person taking on debt that wants to work in biglaw) But it's not always the right advice.

Can you link to just one then?

I mean, I constantly tell people to retake or don't go. But that has nothing to do with being "T14 or bust."

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby irish921 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:13 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:FWIW, I didn't attend a T20 and I've had a great outcome. But I made a decision as a 0L that I wouldn't repeat now, and I would never advise anyone to follow my footsteps.


This is credited. I too decided to take a gamble outside the T20 (again, meaningless) and it has seemingly paid off for me. But would I do it again? Absolutely not. Even now I sometimes regret not being a little more patient and adding a couple points to my LSAT. I've had a great experience at my school. But I consider myself very lucky and often feel as if I "got away" with something.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby stego » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:27 pm

lawman84 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Can someone link to a couple posts where people are portraying this "T14 or bust" mentality?

I read/post all the time and I genuinely don't know what you're referring to


I don't feel like digging through posts but I've seen plenty of retake or don't go to law school advice because they're not going to a T14.

And I don't think that's necessarily the wrong advice. There are certainly situations that it's the right advice.(like a person taking on debt that wants to work in biglaw) But it's not always the right advice.


But those are usually people going to terrible schools at sticker, people with poorly thought out or unrealistic career goals, people going to regional schools in regions that don't make sense for them (no ties or desire to practice there), etc. TLSers advise going to strong regional schools in your desired market for $$$ ALL THE TIME.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:11 pm

I usually say retake even for people with T14 offers IF the person has a 3.9+ GPA and room to improve on the LSAT. Just because you have great offers now does not mean you should go. In some circumstances it just makes too much sense to retake.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby lawman84 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:58 pm

If you're not doing it, there's really no reason to defend yourself.(I'm not saying that telling people to retake is bad advice) I'm not going to dig through the forum to find examples. The fact that you guys all seem to agree that it's not always the right way to go about it validates my original point:
That all said, I don't think people's perspective should be T14 or bust unless you know you want biglaw. There are plenty of quality regional law schools that will get you a good job. Just don't go to them paying sticker price.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:28 pm

lawman84 wrote:If you're not doing it, there's really no reason to defend yourself.(I'm not saying that telling people to retake is bad advice) I'm not going to dig through the forum to find examples. The fact that you guys all seem to agree that it's not always the right way to go about it validates my original point:
That all said, I don't think people's perspective should be T14 or bust unless you know you want biglaw. There are plenty of quality regional law schools that will get you a good job. Just don't go to them paying sticker price.

No one disagreed with this point, just the idea that it's not what everyone on TLS already says.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby lawman84 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:08 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
lawman84 wrote:If you're not doing it, there's really no reason to defend yourself.(I'm not saying that telling people to retake is bad advice) I'm not going to dig through the forum to find examples. The fact that you guys all seem to agree that it's not always the right way to go about it validates my original point:
That all said, I don't think people's perspective should be T14 or bust unless you know you want biglaw. There are plenty of quality regional law schools that will get you a good job. Just don't go to them paying sticker price.

No one disagreed with this point, just the idea that it's not what everyone on TLS already says.


Which isn't an assertion I addressed in that post (but if we're being realistic, it's not what "everyone" on TLS already says but I don't particularly want to get into the breakdown of who is saying it and who isn't). The thread asked a question; I gave an answer. I don't think it's necessary to place a disclaimer in my post when we're all more than capable of assessing whether we're one of those people or not. For example, the first person who posted in this thread is clearly one of those people. Then again, that person was also banned (IIRC) so (s)he is probably on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to this site.

My post was made to tell people that you can still do well for yourself even if you don't make it into the T14 as long as you're realistic about your goals and about the debt you can take on. Most people on this website would say the same. But seeing as I am currently at a T1, I thought it was a point worth making in this thread.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:14 pm

Gotcha. Sorry if I sounded antagonistic (I may have mixed this up with another thread).

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby lawman84 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:21 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Gotcha. Sorry if I sounded antagonistic (I may have mixed this up with another thread).


No, it's fine. I just need to get used to posting on a forum with a bunch of lawyers and future lawyers. I don't mean that in a derogatory manner. I just need to elaborate more on things here than on other forums because we're all argumentative to a degree (well, most of us...at least) and we all tend to see the flaws in each other's arguments.

Plus, tone on the internet is difficult to decipher. I tend to be blunt and matter-of-fact in the way I state things and it sometimes makes my tone seem more aggressive than it is.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:25 am

lawman84 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
lawman84 wrote:If you're not doing it, there's really no reason to defend yourself.(I'm not saying that telling people to retake is bad advice) I'm not going to dig through the forum to find examples. The fact that you guys all seem to agree that it's not always the right way to go about it validates my original point:
That all said, I don't think people's perspective should be T14 or bust unless you know you want biglaw. There are plenty of quality regional law schools that will get you a good job. Just don't go to them paying sticker price.

No one disagreed with this point, just the idea that it's not what everyone on TLS already says.


Which isn't an assertion I addressed in that post (but if we're being realistic, it's not what "everyone" on TLS already says but I don't particularly want to get into the breakdown of who is saying it and who isn't). The thread asked a question; I gave an answer. I don't think it's necessary to place a disclaimer in my post when we're all more than capable of assessing whether we're one of those people or not. For example, the first person who posted in this thread is clearly one of those people. Then again, that person was also banned (IIRC) so (s)he is probably on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to this site.

My post was made to tell people that you can still do well for yourself even if you don't make it into the T14 as long as you're realistic about your goals and about the debt you can take on. Most people on this website would say the same. But seeing as I am currently at a T1, I thought it was a point worth making in this thread.

...but for real, can you link to just one post that is emblematic of this "T14 or bust mentality"? Just one.

People say it all the time, they can't back it up. That leads me to believe that they aren't actually comprehending what is written, or they have some sort of weird agenda that necessitates lying. I think it's conceivable that you could find one of our more mentally ill trolls saying something along those lines, but it's rare and it's most likely shouted down by the sane folks around here.

I have over 8000 posts and I've probably posted in or read the vast majority of the choosing threads over the last couple years. I seriously don't know what T14 or bust machine you guys are raging against. Guide me to it so that I can understand.

Just one post. Please.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby lawman84 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:54 am

BigZuck wrote:...but for real, can you link to just one post that is emblematic of this "T14 or bust mentality"? Just one.

People say it all the time, they can't back it up. That leads me to believe that they aren't actually comprehending what is written, or they have some sort of weird agenda that necessitates lying. I think it's conceivable that you could find one of our more mentally ill trolls saying something along those lines, but it's rare and it's most likely shouted down by the sane folks around here.

I have over 8000 posts and I've probably posted in or read the vast majority of the choosing threads over the last couple years. I seriously don't know what T14 or bust machine you guys are raging against. Guide me to it so that I can understand.

Just one post. Please.


Read the second post in this thread.

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Re: Those who do not go to T20's are you confident in your future and happy with your decision?

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:59 am

He was obviously trolling. Come on.

If anything, TLS should probably be MORE T14 or bust.




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