What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

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PariSiamo
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby PariSiamo » Sun May 17, 2015 1:07 am

Well it's at least 32% since it's unlikely that all of the people who didn't respond would've disagreed. But it does sound vague enough to fall within the range of normal mental health. Like I'm surprised it wasn't a lot greater than 70% if one of the criteria was just "being impacted by stress."

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stego
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby stego » Sun May 17, 2015 1:29 am

zacharus85 wrote:The 'negativity' exists alongside the stark fact that more than half of every year's law grads do not ever get to be lawyers. People incur massive debt for 3 years of stressful hoop-jumping, for a small number of extremely stressful and thankless jobs. If you are smart and go to a good school, cop a scholarship, and end up at a good firm with good partners who treat you well, then you'll be all right. But the vast majority of people don't get all the stars aligned.

If you want to be insulated from all the debt-ridden downers with bleak job prospects, better hope you're headed to HYS bro.


Where is the evidence of that? We have employment data from 9 months after graduation. We don't have a lot of long-term data on various schools.

aretoodeetoo
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby aretoodeetoo » Sun May 17, 2015 3:53 am

stasg wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:The 'negativity' exists alongside the stark fact that more than half of every year's law grads do not ever get to be lawyers. People incur massive debt for 3 years of stressful hoop-jumping, for a small number of extremely stressful and thankless jobs. If you are smart and go to a good school, cop a scholarship, and end up at a good firm with good partners who treat you well, then you'll be all right. But the vast majority of people don't get all the stars aligned.

If you want to be insulated from all the debt-ridden downers with bleak job prospects, better hope you're headed to HYS bro.


Where is the evidence of that? We have employment data from 9 months after graduation. We don't have a lot of long-term data on various schools.


i think he/she is including all the other fringe schools/diploma mills along with TLS's top 50 or top 75. haven't caught up with it.

law school sucks. i thought most people like me just went to law school cause they didn't want to work a job after undergrad or couldn't find one because we majored in icelandic tales

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sun May 17, 2015 6:44 am

stasg wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:The 'negativity' exists alongside the stark fact that more than half of every year's law grads do not ever get to be lawyers. People incur massive debt for 3 years of stressful hoop-jumping, for a small number of extremely stressful and thankless jobs. If you are smart and go to a good school, cop a scholarship, and end up at a good firm with good partners who treat you well, then you'll be all right. But the vast majority of people don't get all the stars aligned.

If you want to be insulated from all the debt-ridden downers with bleak job prospects, better hope you're headed to HYS bro.


Where is the evidence of that? We have employment data from 9 months after graduation. We don't have a lot of long-term data on various schools.

We don't need to look at employment numbers - every year there are ~46,000 law grads and ~26,000 entry level legal positions (including law school funded positions though), so it looks like post-recession we're just over the halfway mark for employment - yaaaaay. You can't magically create long-term lawyer positions - and going solo right out of school is... not ideal.

Here's a brief synopsis b/c I'm too lazy to dig up the stats myself:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/bl ... al-market/

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starry eyed
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 6:55 am

zacharus85 wrote:
stasg wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:The 'negativity' exists alongside the stark fact that more than half of every year's law grads do not ever get to be lawyers. People incur massive debt for 3 years of stressful hoop-jumping, for a small number of extremely stressful and thankless jobs. If you are smart and go to a good school, cop a scholarship, and end up at a good firm with good partners who treat you well, then you'll be all right. But the vast majority of people don't get all the stars aligned.

If you want to be insulated from all the debt-ridden downers with bleak job prospects, better hope you're headed to HYS bro.


Where is the evidence of that? We have employment data from 9 months after graduation. We don't have a lot of long-term data on various schools.

We don't need to look at employment numbers - every year there are ~46,000 law grads and ~26,000 entry level legal positions (including law school funded positions though), so it looks like post-recession we're just over the halfway mark for employment - yaaaaay. You can't magically create long-term lawyer positions - and going solo right out of school is... not ideal.

Here's a brief synopsis b/c I'm too lazy to dig up the stats myself:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/bl ... al-market/


you are aggregating ALL the schools (even the 50+ schools that place less than 40% into legal jobs like ohio northern) and pimping those stats to fit into your anti-law school agenda.

No one on here is going to a TTTT for sticker. If that was the case, your doom and gloom would be warranted.
Last edited by starry eyed on Sun May 17, 2015 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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starry eyed
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 6:56 am

Tiago correct me if I'm wrong, but the state of legal hiring today is the same as before the legal bubble (prior to 2005- 2008), we just have not known because schools were not required to be transparent.

Also, In that article i posted itt, Paul Campos criticizes law school by comparing it to med school by saying that pretty much 100% of med students become doctors. Well what else are they gonna do? They picked a pretty narrow path, that limited them to that profession exculsively. Law and business are interchangeable; i'm not saying that 40% of law grads are working lucrative business jobs, but enough may hate law enough where they will expand into other things; doctors cannot do that.

this anti-law school movement is becoming just as obnoxious as the people who used to primp law school as a prestigious accomplishment

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sun May 17, 2015 8:24 am

starry eyed wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:
stasg wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:The 'negativity' exists alongside the stark fact that more than half of every year's law grads do not ever get to be lawyers. People incur massive debt for 3 years of stressful hoop-jumping, for a small number of extremely stressful and thankless jobs. If you are smart and go to a good school, cop a scholarship, and end up at a good firm with good partners who treat you well, then you'll be all right. But the vast majority of people don't get all the stars aligned.

If you want to be insulated from all the debt-ridden downers with bleak job prospects, better hope you're headed to HYS bro.


Where is the evidence of that? We have employment data from 9 months after graduation. We don't have a lot of long-term data on various schools.

We don't need to look at employment numbers - every year there are ~46,000 law grads and ~26,000 entry level legal positions (including law school funded positions though), so it looks like post-recession we're just over the halfway mark for employment - yaaaaay. You can't magically create long-term lawyer positions - and going solo right out of school is... not ideal.

Here's a brief synopsis b/c I'm too lazy to dig up the stats myself:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/bl ... al-market/


you are aggregating ALL the schools (even the 50+ schools that place less than 40% into legal jobs like ohio northern) and pimping those stats to fit into your anti-law school agenda.

No one on here is going to a TTTT for sticker. If that was the case, your doom and gloom would be warranted.

It would be refreshing if you thought before you spoke - just a suggestion. My advice history is not anti-law school at all - it is however fair to realize that law school is incredibly expensive, and that even on full scholly you're looking at 3 years of living expenses and no income - and when many of the law jobs that DO exist for the aggregate 55% who get one pay no better than industries that don't require a JD, it is not worth it for most.

Also cherry picking people or schools and saying that subset is fine does nothing to undermine the broader point that there is a large-scale problem with the legal hiring market.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sun May 17, 2015 8:40 am

starry eyed wrote:Law and business are interchangeable; i'm not saying that 40% of law grads are working lucrative business jobs, but enough may hate law enough where they will expand into other things;

This is incredibly fucking stupid (but no please Mr. 0L, do tell current and graduated law students how law school works).

Law school does not prepare you for business, nor is it functionally interchangeable with an MBA. The only thing law school 'prepares' you for or 'qualifies' you for (and barely at that) is being a lawyer. No one values a JD without accompanying legal experience, and certainly not enough to give you a significant enough pay raise to make the opportunity cost worth it.

If you have practiced law and want to move into business, you A. generally are still going to be doing the legal side of things, it's very rare that you're going to be C-suite management, and B. have to unlearn all the 'legal thinking' that promotes risk aversion inherent in legal practice.

Law school is expensive, even with a full scholly (which most people do not get). There are not enough jobs for all the law grads, and many don't pay that sweet 160K that is barely adequate to pay off loans. Practice as an associate is brutal and firms factor in attrition so you have no guarantee of staying in long enough to even pay off your loans, let alone transitioning into a long-term career path that makes the JD worth it.

Law school CAN be worth it if you're smart and very lucky. But not everyone can get good scholarships - schools wouldn't be profitable then. So for every smart TLS'er there has to be at least one dummy paying full freight - so the industry-level 'negativity' is well justified.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 8:58 am

zacharus85 wrote:
starry eyed wrote:Law and business are interchangeable; i'm not saying that 40% of law grads are working lucrative business jobs, but enough may hate law enough where they will expand into other things;

This is incredibly fucking stupid (but no please Mr. 0L, do tell current and graduated law students how law school works).

Law school does not prepare you for business, nor is it functionally interchangeable with an MBA. The only thing law school 'prepares' you for or 'qualifies' you for (and barely at that) is being a lawyer. No one values a JD without accompanying legal experience, and certainly not enough to give you a significant enough pay raise to make the opportunity cost worth it.

If you have practiced law and want to move into business, you A. generally are still going to be doing the legal side of things, it's very rare that you're going to be C-suite management, and B. have to unlearn all the 'legal thinking' that promotes risk aversion inherent in legal practice.

Law school is expensive, even with a full scholly (which most people do not get). There are not enough jobs for all the law grads, and many don't pay that sweet 160K that is barely adequate to pay off loans. Practice as an associate is brutal and firms factor in attrition so you have no guarantee of staying in long enough to even pay off your loans, let alone transitioning into a long-term career path that makes the JD worth it.

Law school CAN be worth it if you're smart and very lucky. But not everyone can get good scholarships - schools wouldn't be profitable then. So for every smart TLS'er there has to be at least one dummy paying full freight - so the industry-level 'negativity' is well justified.


lol it seems that i did a service by providing my input, look at all the useful info we got bc a 0L made a post. do you not know about the marketplace of ideas? do you not understand how info gets spread? I say shit that might not be 100% right bit it usually gets people engaged.

though i do have some insight into law firm dynamics from multiple family members being partners at them, but you haven't even started your summer associate yet- please tell us how being an associate is brutal, Mr. hasn't been offered yet


yea if a mod has a problem with me posting in here, they haven't said anything; i generally know when to stay in my lane
Last edited by starry eyed on Sun May 17, 2015 9:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sun May 17, 2015 9:02 am

Encouraging discussion is good (which is why I engaged in the first place). Perpetuating potentially misleading myths is bad.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 9:12 am

zacharus85 wrote:Law school CAN be worth it if you're smart and very lucky. But not everyone can get good scholarships - schools wouldn't be profitable then. So for every smart TLS'er there has to be at least one dummy paying full freight - so the industry-level 'negativity' is well justified.


Since we are gonna selective quote, this is pretty fucking stupid as well zach. Anyone in life will be successful if they are smart and 'very' lucky. Great contribution. i CAN be successful in starting the next tech company if "i'm smart and VERY lucky"

and yes not everyone can get scholly but 99% of ppl on this board have them somewhere (mostly in T50 too) so please change your tactics.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sun May 17, 2015 9:23 am

starry eyed wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:Law school CAN be worth it if you're smart and very lucky. But not everyone can get good scholarships - schools wouldn't be profitable then. So for every smart TLS'er there has to be at least one dummy paying full freight - so the industry-level 'negativity' is well justified.


Since we are gonna selective quote, this is pretty fucking stupid as well zach. Anyone in life will be successful if they are smart and 'very' lucky. Great contribution.

and yes not everyone can get scholly but 99% of ppl on this board have them so please change your tactics.

Since reading isn't your strong suit I'll try to spell this out for you. I'll even try to limit it to small syllable words.

The point is that it REQUIRES some element of luck to make it as a lawyer. This is a strike against going to law school. You have to A. get good grades on a forced curve, B. land a good job from a limited number relative to those competing for it, C. get hired on a narrow window (getting hired as a 3L or later is VERY hard), D. end up in a practice group you will actually enjoy (even though most don't really know what the work entails or all the options available to them beforehand), E. work for partners who won't make your life miserable, and F. be in a firm and practice group that doesn't tank while you're there.

I have no idea where you get your '99% have full scholly' number from. It's ridiculous because again, there are very limited number of full schollys relative to the entire entering class of law students because law schools have to be profitable. But as I said in my previous post, even granting you that it still doesn't always make sense to go to law school because of the opportunity cost of 3 years salary relative to your salary track post law school. If you go to law school on a full scholarship, you need to net make more money than you would have that entire 3 years plus whatever you could've made on a non-law career path. The vast majority of entry level law jobs pay worse than other office jobs with 3 years tenure - and have at best similar progression possibilities.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 9:27 am

Still though after looking at median business/industry salary stats in schools among the T50, it hovers around 65k. (that is like 30k more than the avg undergrad makes).

And i never said 99% had full scholly's but had multiple options of attending higher ranked school fro sticker or lower ranked for big scholly.

Zach, idk if you know this. But to the avg american who can't get a loan for ANYTHING, education loans are limitless. Which provides an 'opportunity' to a lot of people who don't even know what opportunity is. This is the 'poor folks' chance at leveling the playing field; unlike rich people who have access to credit and capital to invest in better opportunities than law school. You sound like an arrogant elitist about to start your SA while spreading your pessimistic BS

now there is a lot of individual responsibility when it comes to whether to make the decision to take the opportunity;
Last edited by starry eyed on Sun May 17, 2015 9:32 am, edited 4 times in total.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun May 17, 2015 9:28 am

One thing to remember is that you almost NEVER hear from people graduating in the middle or bottom of their classes at non-T14 law schools on TLS. So if anything the vibe on TLS should be overly hopeful, not overly negative. The folks at TTTs graduating in the bottom halves of their classes have basically ruined their lives for at least 15-20 years, assuming they paid full freight.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 9:38 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:One thing to remember is that you almost NEVER hear from people graduating in the middle or bottom of their classes at non-T14 law schools on TLS. So if anything the vibe on TLS should be overly hopeful, not overly negative. The folks at TTTs graduating in the bottom halves of their classes have basically ruined their lives for at least 15-20 years, assuming they paid full freight.


no its bc they know their small law firm job would be laughed at by ppl with names like "biglaw associate v20" lol just lol

you are quite perceptive around here; look at the class of 2018's on tls; you will see about 500 pages of harvard and t14 and barely any TT's. this site attracts aspie types that are very smart- and thus have higher incidents of mental illness and job dissatisfaction

people in biglaw just tend to be whiners, that's where the negativity comes from
Last edited by starry eyed on Sun May 17, 2015 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sun May 17, 2015 9:42 am

starry eyed wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:
starry eyed wrote:Law and business are interchangeable; i'm not saying that 40% of law grads are working lucrative business jobs, but enough may hate law enough where they will expand into other things;

This is incredibly fucking stupid (but no please Mr. 0L, do tell current and graduated law students how law school works).

Law school does not prepare you for business, nor is it functionally interchangeable with an MBA. The only thing law school 'prepares' you for or 'qualifies' you for (and barely at that) is being a lawyer. No one values a JD without accompanying legal experience, and certainly not enough to give you a significant enough pay raise to make the opportunity cost worth it.

If you have practiced law and want to move into business, you A. generally are still going to be doing the legal side of things, it's very rare that you're going to be C-suite management, and B. have to unlearn all the 'legal thinking' that promotes risk aversion inherent in legal practice.

Law school is expensive, even with a full scholly (which most people do not get). There are not enough jobs for all the law grads, and many don't pay that sweet 160K that is barely adequate to pay off loans. Practice as an associate is brutal and firms factor in attrition so you have no guarantee of staying in long enough to even pay off your loans, let alone transitioning into a long-term career path that makes the JD worth it.

Law school CAN be worth it if you're smart and very lucky. But not everyone can get good scholarships - schools wouldn't be profitable then. So for every smart TLS'er there has to be at least one dummy paying full freight - so the industry-level 'negativity' is well justified.


lol it seems that i did a service by providing my input, look at all the useful info we got bc a 0L made a post. do you not know about the marketplace of ideas? do you not understand how info gets spread? I say shit that might not be 100% right bit it usually gets people engaged.

though i do have some insight into law firm dynamics from multiple family members being partners at them, but you haven't even started your summer associate yet- please tell us how being an associate is brutal, Mr. hasn't been offered yet


yea if a mod has a problem with me posting in here, they haven't said anything; i generally know when to stay in my lane


Did somebody say path dependency and cognitive dissonance? When did your family start subtly pressuring you to go to law school- 3rd grade? Trust me, I also have family members who are partners at law firms- nobody knows less about the state of modern legal education than they do. Well, that isn't quite fair. Legal education hasn't changed since they went to law school. The rest of the world has. Anyway, point of this post is that the fact that you have lawyer family members definitely does not increase the value of your contributions here, if anything it lessens it because you seem to be fighting to justify a choice that you had to make.

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starry eyed
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 9:44 am

yea unicornhunter, you are right, but i didn't actually want to be a lawyer until last year.

but i don't think it hurts 0L's to have a little confidence when they start (if they have already committed and there's no going back) school bc being pessimistic is not gonna help you get a job.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby FloridaCoastalorbust » Sun May 17, 2015 9:49 am

money and prestige encourages me to attend law school despite the negativity

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 9:53 am

FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:money and prestige encourages me to attend law school despite the negativity



what you weren't ok working as a tax preparer at h and r block?

"there's no risk and it's safe, it's the better option"- TLS
Last edited by starry eyed on Sun May 17, 2015 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PariSiamo
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby PariSiamo » Sun May 17, 2015 9:53 am

starry eyed wrote:yea unicornhunter, you are right, but i didn't actually want to be a lawyer until last year.

but i don't think it hurts 0L's to have a little confidence when they start (if they have already committed and there's no going back) school bc being pessimistic is not gonna help you get a job.


http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/articl ... tudy_finds

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starry eyed
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 9:55 am

yea good luck getting clients without being optimistic

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PariSiamo
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby PariSiamo » Sun May 17, 2015 9:56 am

starry eyed wrote:being pessimistic is not gonna help you get a job.


Seligman’s survey of law students at the University of Virginia found that pessimists got better grades, were more likely to make law review and got better job offers.


Just sayin...

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starry eyed
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sun May 17, 2015 10:00 am

i think that article speaks more towards knowing what you are getting into; pessimism usually opens your eyes to more than what you 'want' to see. But once you haver grappled with and accepted this fact, i disagree that is prudent to be pessimistic

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby smaug » Sun May 17, 2015 10:04 am

starry if you keep trolling/being a dumbass in the OTs I'm going to re foe you and ban you from the Royal Rumble.

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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sun May 17, 2015 10:04 am

starry eyed wrote:
FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:money and prestige encourages me to attend law school despite the negativity



what you weren't ok working as a tax preparer at h and r block?

"there's no risk and it's safe, it's the better option"- TLS


The problem is that law school is a significant risk that appeals to a group of people who is largely risk-adverse. It seems safe, but it's really not. Lawyers are enablers for the people who actually took risks and earned huge premiums for it.




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