What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
User avatar
djbatista
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby djbatista » Tue May 19, 2015 11:03 am

Hey fair enough it's not like I'm trying to stop you from putting your opinion out there or anything...

User avatar
JohannDeMann
Posts: 13831
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue May 19, 2015 11:04 am

djbatista wrote: A person who goes into law school and comes out with debt but finds a nice law job that pays even around 70K with benefits is far better situated than a person with no debt who is making 40-60K as a standard office worker. There's more potential for growth and success, a better lifestyle with more money in the bank, and opportunities lateraling to different types of firms and connecting with other people, as well as the specialized knowledge of beginning one's own practice in the future. Many attorneys become filthy rich this way.


Nobody becomes flithy rich making 70k a year. Most every law job has terrible benefits because you are working for small partnerships and they are very expensive for the firm. It looks like you're a real authority on these issues.

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby bjsesq » Tue May 19, 2015 11:05 am

JohannDeMann wrote:
djbatista wrote: A person who goes into law school and comes out with debt but finds a nice law job that pays even around 70K with benefits is far better situated than a person with no debt who is making 40-60K as a standard office worker. There's more potential for growth and success, a better lifestyle with more money in the bank, and opportunities lateraling to different types of firms and connecting with other people, as well as the specialized knowledge of beginning one's own practice in the future. Many attorneys become filthy rich this way.


Nobody becomes flithy rich making 70k a year. Most every law job has terrible benefits because you are working for small partnerships and they are very expensive for the firm. It looks like you're a real authority on these issues.

You just lack the DRIVE and STICK TO IT-TIVENESS to get bro's point.

User avatar
djbatista
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby djbatista » Tue May 19, 2015 11:07 am

JohannDeMann wrote:
djbatista wrote: A person who goes into law school and comes out with debt but finds a nice law job that pays even around 70K with benefits is far better situated than a person with no debt who is making 40-60K as a standard office worker. There's more potential for growth and success, a better lifestyle with more money in the bank, and opportunities lateraling to different types of firms and connecting with other people, as well as the specialized knowledge of beginning one's own practice in the future. Many attorneys become filthy rich this way.


Nobody becomes flithy rich making 70k a year. Most every law job has terrible benefits because you are working for small partnerships and they are very expensive for the firm. It looks like you're a real authority on these issues.


Interesting, is this (the benefits part) true for big law as well? No need to be so confrontational btw if you disagree or I'm wrong about something, saying so will suffice.

User avatar
JohannDeMann
Posts: 13831
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue May 19, 2015 11:12 am

My benefits are fine in biglaw. They cover what I need - health insurance. They aren't great by any means though - no 401k matching or anything like that.

User avatar
djbatista
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby djbatista » Tue May 19, 2015 11:16 am

JohannDeMann wrote:My benefits are fine in biglaw. They cover what I need - health insurance. They aren't great by any means though - no 401k matching or anything like that.


Gotcha. Well still worth it the salary makes up for that. Roth IRA all the way

User avatar
smaug
Posts: 12608
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby smaug » Tue May 19, 2015 11:19 am

boo, I love you, but you're arguing with a potato

Cogburn87
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:26 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Cogburn87 » Tue May 19, 2015 11:21 am

djbatista wrote: A person who goes into law school and comes out with debt but finds a nice law job that pays even around 70K with benefits is far better situated than a person with no debt who is making 40-60K as a standard office worker. There's more potential for growth and success, a better lifestyle with more money in the bank, and opportunities lateraling to different types of firms and connecting with other people, as well as the specialized knowledge of beginning one's own practice in the future. Many attorneys become filthy rich this way.


you've never worked a day in the legal industry, have you?

User avatar
ymmv
Posts: 12946
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:36 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby ymmv » Tue May 19, 2015 11:21 am

Jason Taverner wrote:boo, I love you, but you're arguing with a potato


When has that ever stopped you?

User avatar
OhBoyOhBortles
Posts: 2255
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:01 am

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Tue May 19, 2015 11:22 am

Jason Taverner wrote:boo, I love you, but you're arguing with a potato


Tbf, i think his primary concern is the lurkers who may believe that there is a shred of truth in the potato's argument. Potato's gonna pay sticker to go to UF and have a coin flip's chance at becoming an attorney. The lurkers can likely still be saved.

User avatar
smaug
Posts: 12608
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby smaug » Tue May 19, 2015 11:22 am

ymmv wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:boo, I love you, but you're arguing with a potato


When has that ever stopped you?


I'm turning a new leaf.

User avatar
djbatista
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby djbatista » Tue May 19, 2015 11:23 am

Cogburn87 wrote:
djbatista wrote: A person who goes into law school and comes out with debt but finds a nice law job that pays even around 70K with benefits is far better situated than a person with no debt who is making 40-60K as a standard office worker. There's more potential for growth and success, a better lifestyle with more money in the bank, and opportunities lateraling to different types of firms and connecting with other people, as well as the specialized knowledge of beginning one's own practice in the future. Many attorneys become filthy rich this way.


you've never worked a day in the legal industry, have you?


Actually I'm a paralegal at an employment discrimination firm. I may come back here to work after graduating.

Cogburn87
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:26 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Cogburn87 » Tue May 19, 2015 11:24 am

Yikes

User avatar
starry eyed
Posts: 2048
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:26 am

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Tue May 19, 2015 11:24 am

djbatista wrote:
Cogburn87 wrote:
djbatista wrote: A person who goes into law school and comes out with debt but finds a nice law job that pays even around 70K with benefits is far better situated than a person with no debt who is making 40-60K as a standard office worker. There's more potential for growth and success, a better lifestyle with more money in the bank, and opportunities lateraling to different types of firms and connecting with other people, as well as the specialized knowledge of beginning one's own practice in the future. Many attorneys become filthy rich this way.


you've never worked a day in the legal industry, have you?


Actually I'm a paralegal at an employment discrimination firm. I may come back here to work after graduating.


well then why don't you go to shitty law school for free, and come back and work there?

risk/reward is higher IMO

User avatar
djbatista
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby djbatista » Tue May 19, 2015 11:28 am

starry eyed wrote:
djbatista wrote:
Cogburn87 wrote:
djbatista wrote: A person who goes into law school and comes out with debt but finds a nice law job that pays even around 70K with benefits is far better situated than a person with no debt who is making 40-60K as a standard office worker. There's more potential for growth and success, a better lifestyle with more money in the bank, and opportunities lateraling to different types of firms and connecting with other people, as well as the specialized knowledge of beginning one's own practice in the future. Many attorneys become filthy rich this way.


you've never worked a day in the legal industry, have you?


Actually I'm a paralegal at an employment discrimination firm. I may come back here to work after graduating.


well then why don't you go to shitty law school for free, and come back and work there?

risk/reward is higher IMO


You have a point but over the long-term UF degree is worth far more here in FL. Also in state tuition is 60k which is pretty reasonable.

Cogburn87 wrote:Yikes


Not sure I understand where you're coming from here. Problem with employment law?

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby bjsesq » Tue May 19, 2015 11:31 am

OhBoyOhBortles wrote:
Jason Taverner wrote:boo, I love you, but you're arguing with a potato


Tbf, i think his primary concern is the lurkers who may believe that there is a shred of truth in the potato's argument. Potato's gonna pay sticker to go to UF and have a coin flip's chance at becoming an attorney. The lurkers can likely still be saved.

This. Absolutely this.

Cogburn87
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:26 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Cogburn87 » Tue May 19, 2015 11:37 am

djbatista wrote:Not sure I understand where you're coming from here. Problem with employment law?

Problem with the advice you're giving based on your (lack of) knowledge of the current state of the legal profession.

User avatar
LA Spring
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:52 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby LA Spring » Tue May 19, 2015 3:25 pm

Cogburn87 wrote:
LA Spring wrote:I don’t chalk it all up to luck. I suppose it’s possible that Tom Trump Supporter Brady and LeBron James are really lucky or perhaps they are on the first string because they are talented. After 3 months as an SA and 8 months as an associate what I’ve continually seen is that certain people continually receive better assignments. There are first years handling bigger cases than 3rd years, I don’t believe that this is necessarily attributed to luck.

would u say ur the Tom Trump Supporter Brady of ur law firm?

I wish. I’m just not totally on board with “it’s mostly about luck.” Certainly luck may play a part, i.e., choosing (or being chosen) by the right fit law firm.

User avatar
ExBiglawAssociate
Posts: 2087
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:06 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue May 19, 2015 4:31 pm

LA Spring wrote:I don’t chalk it all up to luck. I suppose it’s possible that Tom Trump Supporter Brady and LeBron James are really lucky or perhaps they are on the first string because they are talented. After 3 months as an SA and 8 months as an associate what I’ve continually seen is that certain people continually receive better assignments. There are first years handling bigger cases than 3rd years, I don’t believe that this is necessarily attributed to luck.


Not sucking at your job is obviously a prerequisite to being successful, so you're not really making any groundbreaking points with this post.

You must work at a shitty firm if some of the associates are bad enough to not be trusted with certain kinds of work. The vast majority of what you do as a junior is just not that difficult and most associates at my V20 were fungible.

User avatar
JohannDeMann
Posts: 13831
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue May 19, 2015 4:47 pm

LA Spring wrote:
Cogburn87 wrote:
LA Spring wrote:I don’t chalk it all up to luck. I suppose it’s possible that Tom Trump Supporter Brady and LeBron James are really lucky or perhaps they are on the first string because they are talented. After 3 months as an SA and 8 months as an associate what I’ve continually seen is that certain people continually receive better assignments. There are first years handling bigger cases than 3rd years, I don’t believe that this is necessarily attributed to luck.

would u say ur the Tom Trump Supporter Brady of ur law firm?

I wish. I’m just not totally on board with “it’s mostly about luck.” Certainly luck may play a part, i.e., choosing (or being chosen) by the right fit law firm.


I'll agree to a certain extent here. But the point you are missing is the luck that put that 1st year and 3rd year in their respective positions and one was set up to fail and the other thrive. You would be a fool to believe that if you put those same 2 people in 50 other practice groups, the same person comes out ahead in even 30-35 of them. Just as your skills and whether or not you are good at an exam was up to perception in law school, the same applies for practice. So much of law just comes down to partner preference. Certain people work well with others - your flaws can be covered by other on the team, certain projects require certain skills so maybe you just get lucky and people think you're an all star year 1 but you really haven't been exposed to your weakness yet, maybe your midlevels can cover for you, maybe you work the same schedule as a certain partner so everytime he calls you are in your office and he thinks you're really diligent and always working like him because he works 9-9 and you are there at 8:30 pm when he calls but the partner that works 5-5 would think you are a bum sleeping in everyday, maybe you and your partner are both procrastinators so he doesn't realize that as a weakness, maybe you are just calm and chill all the time and they like that, maybe you are always worried about every detail and they like that, etc. The point is partner preference is going to range and vary by a lot. Yeah some people generally suck, but for the most part - everybody's working on a similar plane of intelligence and in the same sort of world here.
As far as your basketball analogy a more appropriate analogy would be Josh Smith - The Detroit Pistons one of the worst teams in the league cut Josh Smith and many thought he would be done in the NBA. He went to the Houston Rockets and was the most important player in the most important game of the Western Conference semifinals. That's the same with law. That 3rd year that will get forced out by your firm may go on to another firm and become partner. The amount of delusion on this website of people who think they are prodigy paper pushers is astounding.

User avatar
ExBiglawAssociate
Posts: 2087
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:06 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue May 19, 2015 4:50 pm

LA Spring wrote:
Cogburn87 wrote:
LA Spring wrote:I don’t chalk it all up to luck. I suppose it’s possible that Tom Trump Supporter Brady and LeBron James are really lucky or perhaps they are on the first string because they are talented. After 3 months as an SA and 8 months as an associate what I’ve continually seen is that certain people continually receive better assignments. There are first years handling bigger cases than 3rd years, I don’t believe that this is necessarily attributed to luck.

would u say ur the Tom Trump Supporter Brady of ur law firm?

I wish. I’m just not totally on board with “it’s mostly about luck.” Certainly luck may play a part, i.e., choosing (or being chosen) by the right fit law firm.


I don't think anyone here has argued that "it's mostly luck" in the way you are suggesting we have.

blsingindisguise
Posts: 1296
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:08 am

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue May 19, 2015 4:55 pm

There's a difference between the commonly found overestimation of one's own potential relative to others' and "luck."

User avatar
Nebby
Posts: 21910
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:23 pm

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Nebby » Tue May 19, 2015 5:02 pm

u can bring a gubbermint to its knee if you have a J.D.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22835
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue May 19, 2015 7:46 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
LA Spring wrote:
Cogburn87 wrote:
LA Spring wrote:I don’t chalk it all up to luck. I suppose it’s possible that Tom Trump Supporter Brady and LeBron James are really lucky or perhaps they are on the first string because they are talented. After 3 months as an SA and 8 months as an associate what I’ve continually seen is that certain people continually receive better assignments. There are first years handling bigger cases than 3rd years, I don’t believe that this is necessarily attributed to luck.

would u say ur the Tom Trump Supporter Brady of ur law firm?

I wish. I’m just not totally on board with “it’s mostly about luck.” Certainly luck may play a part, i.e., choosing (or being chosen) by the right fit law firm.


I don't think anyone here has argued that "it's mostly luck" in the way you are suggesting we have.

I sure didn't. I just said people don't realize how much of a role luck plays. Maybe I should say people don't realize how many factors come into play over which they have no control. Johann's post is a good example of how it can work.

thenorth
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:24 am

Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby thenorth » Wed May 20, 2015 3:42 am

I think on the previous point made about some 2Ls usually receiving better assignments than 3Ls, this points to a source of optimism for some entering/current law students (perhaps including myself). That is, the path from law school to becoming a successful practitioner cannot always it seems be predicted by what year or what school or what grades you have. Some of these externalities may be perceived as "luck" in a general sense, but I think that is mainly because they work differently for different people in different markets. Browsing through biglaw partners at firms in my hometown (a major market) reveals very few JDs from the schools one might expect. That is to say, "luck" may be the label that we attach to the broader range of subtle personal affinities, frats, school connection, the unique arrangement and order of people one encounters, etc. that permits, say, a JD with an average CV to succeed nonetheless. If this is true, which I think it is, it serves as a source of cautious optimism for entering/current students. Or maybe..




Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], WhiskeynCoke and 3 guests