What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

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Blueberrypie
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What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Blueberrypie » Sat May 16, 2015 8:08 pm

Law is something I really want to do. Getting accepted to all my schools, I am not able to feel as excited as I think I should, because of all the negativity about law school and becoming a lawyer.


The constant negativity makes it hard to see through and be proud of myself and my accomplishments. I'm made to feel like it is one of the worse decisions I could make finances aside.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sat May 16, 2015 8:15 pm

The 'negativity' exists alongside the stark fact that more than half of every year's law grads do not ever get to be lawyers. People incur massive debt for 3 years of stressful hoop-jumping, for a small number of extremely stressful and thankless jobs. If you are smart and go to a good school, cop a scholarship, and end up at a good firm with good partners who treat you well, then you'll be all right. But the vast majority of people don't get all the stars aligned.

If you want to be insulated from all the debt-ridden downers with bleak job prospects, better hope you're headed to HYS bro.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sat May 16, 2015 8:19 pm

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/1 ... ness/?_r=0


The high paying jobs suck and the rewarding jobs don't pay well/probably don't justify 3 years+tuition when you could do work that pays in the same ballpark and is similarly satisfying without a JD.

eta: don't buy the YSH is immune from this line:


In December, Yale Law School released a study that said 70 percent of students there who responded to a survey were affected by mental health issues.

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The Mixed Tape
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby The Mixed Tape » Sat May 16, 2015 8:31 pm

models & bottles

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The Mixed Tape
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby The Mixed Tape » Sat May 16, 2015 8:31 pm

Nova wrote:
timbs wrote:A Day in the Life of a Sports Lawyer:

8:30: Wake up in king-size bed to full view of Miami skyline. Soak in outdoor Jacuzzi while reviewing client’s latest endorsement deal on your iPad.

9:30: Call pasty lawyer for the sports drink company. Talk about how much client enjoys Powerade. Throw out a seven-figure number. Lawyer meekly assents.

10:00: Roll through town in brand-new Gallardo (a gift from an NASCAR driver who shall not be named). Take a call from the distraught parents of a first-round draft pick. In flyover country twang, they explain their son’s in a little trouble with the police.

10:15: Arrive at your downtown office. There’s white marble and a two-story fountain in the lobby. Ask cute, perky assistant with dirty blonde hair to get you the name of a local judge. Assistant wonders why you’re asking her to get local judge’s number, since in 2017 everyone has the numbers in their GoogleGlass.

11:00: Call with local judge who happens to be a season ticket holder. After you explain the situation, he signs an order for your client’s release as long as you keep him away from farm animals.

12:30: Lunch with Rival Sports Lawyer where you discuss competing views on the profession. He thinks clients are just meat to be grinded out. You think each client is a special snowflake.

2:00: Check fantasy sports league. You’re number one. Fondly reminisce how being champ of your fantasy football league in college and leading your team to victory at the UVA softball tournament B division (two years in a row!) first brought you to the attention of Big Time Sports Law Firm.

3:45: Trip to Dolphins training camp to negotiate new contract. Although you switched to soccer in elementary school because your Mom said “tackle football” was too dangerous, you can tell just from watching a few minutes of practice that your client’s an integral part of the team’s offensive scheme. This and a withering barrage of statistics wring another $3 million out of the GM.

5:00: Call with frantic GMs from three different MLB teams. There’s a six player trade they need done before the trade deadline at midnight. You think this rush of adrenaline must be what it’s like to pitch game 7 on three days of rest. You do a line of coke because Miami.

9:30: Deal of the century is done. Everyone calls you with congrats. Sexy blonde ESPN correspondent calls you to do a private interview.

10:00: Arrive at South Beach club wearing sharp suit with open collar. Walk past stunned club goers. Table in the VIP section with various professional athletes. They express admiration at what you do.

11:35: Spot a former Heat dancer who you helped secure a modeling contract at favorable terms. She glides over to you, looks deeply into your eyes, and whispers seductively “take advantage of three year federal deferment programs by calling us at 1-800-SHW-MUNY.”

8:45 AM: Wake up in a cold sweat with an unpaid student loan bill stuck to your forehead. You have an hour to get to Pinecrest to cover a $350 home closing. Before leaving, you check your fantasy sports standings. You’re third, behind a junior DA and the guy who picks players based on how many endorsement deals they have.

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The Mixed Tape
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby The Mixed Tape » Sat May 16, 2015 8:32 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
dr123 wrote:WTF does International Corporate even mean?


0830: Wake up in stately 16th Century hotel in Zurich. Kiss beautiful Russian model you met last night goodbye.

0930: Breakfast at cafe overlooking the clear waters of Lake Zurich. Read the Financial Times and chuckle about their shoddy reporting on a deal you headlined last week.

1000: Take high-speed train to Paris, fielding conference calls from several CEOs and bankers.

1100: Negotiate $13 million merger between US company and European conglomerate. Everyone speaks English with a broken accent, of course, so you can understand all the documents and the negotiations.

1230: Lunch with other International Corporate Lawyers at International Corporate Lawyer Club, everyone, of course, speaking English with a broken accent.

1400: Fly to the Hague for some pro-bono work. By 1500, you've convicted a genocidal African dictator of every war crime imaginable. He curses you in broken English. A hundred survivors from the village he attacked gift your their ceremonial hunting horn. The chief's beautiful, Oxford educated daughter, who you've been working closely with, flashes you a flirtatious smile.

1730: Return to London office of International Corporate Law Firm. Exchange witty banter with secretary. Get dressed down by your curmudgeonly boss.

1900: High-stakes Baccarat game at Monte Carlo with head of European finance ministry. After beating him, he agrees to relax certain disclosure requirements for IPOs. Also he pays for champagne (in broken English) and you party with Russian model and African chief's daughter.

2300: Returning to hotel, concierge informs you of a call. Picking up, you hear "Mr. Corporate Lawyer, this is our fifth call. You've missed the last three payments on your student loans. If you'd like to discuss repayment options, you can contact me at 1-800-FANTASY."

You wake up in a cold sweat, and realize you have less than 20 minutes to get dressed, shower, and get to your document review job in a warehouse in New Jersey. Think about going back to law school for the "International Law LLM."

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Wild Card
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Wild Card » Sat May 16, 2015 8:42 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/opini ... .html?_r=0

Lawrence E. Mitchell wrote:What else will these thousands of students who have been discouraged from attending law school do? Where will they find a more fulfilling career?

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Nekrowizard
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Blueberrypie
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Blueberrypie » Sat May 16, 2015 9:08 pm

Then why is anyone currently studying for the lsat, preparing to attend law school or currently in law school? Are they foolish to think that, for the most part, their situation will turn out differently?

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UnicornHunter
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sat May 16, 2015 9:30 pm

Wild Card wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/opinion/law-school-is-worth-the-money.html?_r=0

Lawrence E. Mitchell wrote:What else will these thousands of students who have been discouraged from attending law school do? Where will they find a more fulfilling career?


Lawrence E. Mitchell is dean of Case Western Reserve University’s law school.


Lol.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Capitol_Idea » Sat May 16, 2015 9:33 pm

Blueberrypie wrote:Then why is anyone currently studying for the lsat, preparing to attend law school or currently in law school? Are they foolish to think that, for the most part, their situation will turn out differently?

Some have done the math and find that the value of their chosen course likely outweighs the risks. But a fair amount of hubris is usually involved.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sat May 16, 2015 9:35 pm

Blueberrypie wrote:Then why is anyone currently studying for the lsat, preparing to attend law school or currently in law school? Are they foolish to think that, for the most part, their situation will turn out differently?


Path dependency and cognitive dissonance. People go to school their whole life with the assumption that better grades + more school will equal a better life. When confronted with evidence that that' not true, they tend to ignore it. Law school is a lot like tic-tac-toe and nuclear war.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby RunnerRunner » Sat May 16, 2015 9:36 pm

Blueberrypie wrote:Law is something I really want to do. Getting accepted to all my schools, I am not able to feel as excited as I think I should, because of all the negativity about law school and becoming a lawyer.


The constant negativity makes it hard to see through and be proud of myself and my accomplishments. I'm made to feel like it is one of the worse decisions I could make finances aside.


Law school is a terrible decision for people who:

A) Know nothing about what is actually involved in being a lawyer.
B) Do not have a specific plan as to what they will do with their law degree.
C) Only have offers from schools unlikely to get them the job they want, or are paying sticker at schools that will kinda, sorta, maybe give them a chance at the jobs they want.
D) Some combination of the above options.

If none of that describes you then ignore the negativity and get excited about law school!

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starry eyed
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sat May 16, 2015 9:51 pm

ignore the haters OP (0L)

That all sounds really bad. But they get away from the central question here: is the amount of money law graduates make greater than the amount they would have made if they hadn't gone? And is that premium greater than the cost of law school? The answer to both questions, a new study finds, is yes. Seton Hall's Michael Simkovic and Rutgers's Frank McIntyre conclude, "For most law school graduates, the net present value of a law degree typically exceeds its cost by hundreds of thousands of dollars."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... h-the-cash

(there's a pretty cool graph in the link)

Blueberrypie
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Blueberrypie » Sat May 16, 2015 10:00 pm

RunnerRunner wrote:
Blueberrypie wrote:Law is something I really want to do. Getting accepted to all my schools, I am not able to feel as excited as I think I should, because of all the negativity about law school and becoming a lawyer.


The constant negativity makes it hard to see through and be proud of myself and my accomplishments. I'm made to feel like it is one of the worse decisions I could make finances aside.


Law school is a terrible decision for people who:

A) Know nothing about what is actually involved in being a lawyer.
B) Do not have a specific plan as to what they will do with their law degree.
C) Only have offers from schools unlikely to get them the job they want, or are paying sticker at schools that will kinda, sorta, maybe give them a chance at the jobs they want.
D) Some combination of the above options.

If none of that describes you then ignore the negativity and get excited about law school!


Okay, but all this aside, the numerous articles, lawyers, and statistics telling everyone to run away from the profession do not exclude those who attend debt free or go to Harvard, Yale or Stanford. A terrible market is a terrible market and no matter how deep the roots or tight the connections shit has to hit the fan. No one is guaranteed a job in a great market, can you imagine the prospects for an over saturated market ? It spells bad news for everyone.

Unless, the market isn't as bad as it seems and it has less to do with the quantity of lawyers but the quality. You can have 10 million lawyers in nyc, but if 95% are crap then are most not getting a job, because of same? A great education doesn't make a great lawyer or someone who has what it takes. People tend to think that a degree justifies a job, but its way more than that. I can see this being a greater problem.

It is the only thing I can think of that justifies people by the thousands attending, what people akin to as a dying profession.

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starry eyed
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby starry eyed » Sat May 16, 2015 10:10 pm

i think law school gets a bad rap bc think about who is going: people with no better options so they assume that this will be the ticket to a good job.

what they don't realize is that Law School itself is not going to get you a job unless you have top grades (which can be very subjective)
when they don't have said grades, they are in the same clueless situation they were before law school only with debt this time.
these folks are still screwed when it comes to finding employment

i think it is possible to be real with yourself and evaluate whether you have the hustle to get a job, without good grades. if you can't, then go to a T14 that puts everyone into biglaw, and then safely in-house where no hustle is involved (and the salary caps out lower)

i don't think law school is a bad decision if it is near free and your other options are limited from having a state school lib arts degree

but hell some people go bc they actually want to be lawyers

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haus
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby haus » Sat May 16, 2015 10:25 pm

starry eyed wrote:but hell some people go bc they actually want to be lawyers

Are you sure about this? It seems rather far fetched.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat May 16, 2015 11:09 pm

starry eyed wrote:ignore the haters OP (0L)

That all sounds really bad. But they get away from the central question here: is the amount of money law graduates make greater than the amount they would have made if they hadn't gone? And is that premium greater than the cost of law school? The answer to both questions, a new study finds, is yes. Seton Hall's Michael Simkovic and Rutgers's Frank McIntyre conclude, "For most law school graduates, the net present value of a law degree typically exceeds its cost by hundreds of thousands of dollars."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... h-the-cash

(there's a pretty cool graph in the link)

Just so we're clear these authors (EDIT: "The authors" meaning Simkovic and McIntyre and their joke of a study-- :wink: ) are pushing the idea that going to Cooley at sticker is a good idea. Make of that what you will.

OP there is a huge dropoff in placement that happens very quickly as you go down the rankings. If you're going to a top school with strong placement and/or paying very very little you'll probably be fine.

Re: "A great education doesn't get someone a job"--No, but a great school does. At most schools around the country a majority of students will have no job at graduation. At top schools most students will have a job lined up before their second year of law school. The school you go to really really matters in this profession, at least right out of the starting gate.

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RunnerRunner
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby RunnerRunner » Sat May 16, 2015 11:33 pm

Blueberrypie wrote:Okay, but all this aside, the numerous articles, lawyers, and statistics telling everyone to run away from the profession do not exclude those who attend debt free or go to Harvard, Yale or Stanford.


Actually, a ton of them do. I've seen articles saying attending a top school is still a good investment. Employment statistics are strong out of YHS and other T14s. And no lawyer is going to say "for the love of God, don't go to [insert Yale, Harvard, or Stanford], you'll ruin your life!" Like Tiago Splitter said, there is a huge dropoff as you go down the rankings, but if you're above it there's less reason to stress.

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PariSiamo
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby PariSiamo » Sat May 16, 2015 11:50 pm

TheUnicornHunter wrote:http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/lawyers-with-lowest-pay-report-more-happiness/?_r=0


The high paying jobs suck and the rewarding jobs don't pay well/probably don't justify 3 years+tuition when you could do work that pays in the same ballpark and is similarly satisfying without a JD.

eta: don't buy the YSH is immune from this line:


In December, Yale Law School released a study that said 70 percent of students there who responded to a survey were affected by mental health issues.


Really wish that survey were ubiquitous among law schools.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun May 17, 2015 12:06 am

PariSiamo wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/lawyers-with-lowest-pay-report-more-happiness/?_r=0


The high paying jobs suck and the rewarding jobs don't pay well/probably don't justify 3 years+tuition when you could do work that pays in the same ballpark and is similarly satisfying without a JD.

eta: don't buy the YSH is immune from this line:


In December, Yale Law School released a study that said 70 percent of students there who responded to a survey were affected by mental health issues.


Really wish that survey were ubiquitous among law schools.

I doubt that law school helps people's mental health, but there's a huge correlation/causation issue with that statement. I suspect people who have the kinds of qualities that help put them in the position to go to Yale are particularly prone to anxiety/depression. Also, a ton of people not in law school are affected by mental health issues. How does that actually compare to the general college-educated population?

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PariSiamo
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby PariSiamo » Sun May 17, 2015 12:28 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
PariSiamo wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/lawyers-with-lowest-pay-report-more-happiness/?_r=0


The high paying jobs suck and the rewarding jobs don't pay well/probably don't justify 3 years+tuition when you could do work that pays in the same ballpark and is similarly satisfying without a JD.

eta: don't buy the YSH is immune from this line:


In December, Yale Law School released a study that said 70 percent of students there who responded to a survey were affected by mental health issues.


Really wish that survey were ubiquitous among law schools.

I doubt that law school helps people's mental health, but there's a huge correlation/causation issue with that statement. I suspect people who have the kinds of qualities that help put them in the position to go to Yale are particularly prone to anxiety/depression. Also, a ton of people not in law school are affected by mental health issues. How does that actually compare to the general college-educated population?


I'd guess it has to do with the inverse correlation between intelligence and mental health, which is probably aggravated in high-stress and intensively competitive environments. Or the fact that the best lawyers are pessimistic. It's not surprising but it is a bit ironic and sad that those most capable of a profession may often be the least suited for it.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sun May 17, 2015 12:33 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
PariSiamo wrote:
TheUnicornHunter wrote:http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/lawyers-with-lowest-pay-report-more-happiness/?_r=0


The high paying jobs suck and the rewarding jobs don't pay well/probably don't justify 3 years+tuition when you could do work that pays in the same ballpark and is similarly satisfying without a JD.

eta: don't buy the YSH is immune from this line:


In December, Yale Law School released a study that said 70 percent of students there who responded to a survey were affected by mental health issues.


Really wish that survey were ubiquitous among law schools.

I doubt that law school helps people's mental health, but there's a huge correlation/causation issue with that statement. I suspect people who have the kinds of qualities that help put them in the position to go to Yale are particularly prone to anxiety/depression. Also, a ton of people not in law school are affected by mental health issues. How does that actually compare to the general college-educated population?


Even if it is a correlation thing and not a causation thing, probably best for people prone to such mental health issues to steer clear of a profession that almost certainly exacerbates them.

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PariSiamo
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby PariSiamo » Sun May 17, 2015 12:52 am

TheUnicornHunter wrote:Even if it is a correlation thing and not a causation thing, probably best for people prone to such mental health issues to steer clear of a profession that almost certainly exacerbates them.


It probably does exacerbate them but it doesn't seem like a good solution to just say, "pick another job." Nony is right in that there are obviously tons of people outside the legal field with mental problems and it's not like you can help being drawn to a certain profession. Surveys like this seem like a great opportunity for raising awareness and promoting healthier lifestyles within the community. To me, anyway.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: What encourages you to attend law school among all the negativity?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun May 17, 2015 12:58 am

FWIW, 70% of respondents in the Yale study is 32% of the students. Estimates suggest that 25% of college students deal with mental health issues, so it's an increase, but not a crazy high one. A study of international grad students found that 44% self-reported dealing with mental health issues. A study of grad students in the U Cal system found than in the previous year, 1 out of 10 had considered suicide, and about 60% of graduate students "said that they felt overwhelmed, exhausted, hopeless, sad, or depressed nearly all the time." In another study of 28,000 undergrads and grad students, "nearly 40% of graduate students reported feeling hopeless during the previous year, 78.5% said they had felt overwhelmed, 27.2% said they had felt depressed, and 54.5% said they had felt stress over the past year ranging from 'more than average' to 'tremendous.'"

(also FWIW: the Yale report also asked students to say whether they agreed or disagreed that "While at Yale Law, I believe that I have experienced mental health challenges," where "mental health challenges" were defined as "anxiety or stress serious enough to cause disruption (e.g., in sleep quality, concentration, memory, or emotional stability), depression, intrusive thoughts, suicidal ideation, survival of sexual abuse or other trauma, substance abuse, eating disorders, and any other mental or psychological condition that may require treatment from a medical professional." It's not a record of actual diagnoses. The report actually seems designed to point out the problems with Yale's mental health treatment options and push for better ones.)

Which I point out mostly to say that law students, at least at Yale, aren't really so much worse off than any other grad students. (This is leaving aside stats about lawyers and mental health etc.)




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