Starting biglaw salaries

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Wed May 06, 2015 9:32 pm

bball25 wrote:Kirkland is a very top firm. HTH.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgSJUzYCGtc

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Desert Fox
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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby Desert Fox » Wed May 06, 2015 9:36 pm

You can but it has to be very relevant work experience. For patent lit I've seen: USPTO examiner experience was good for a year seniority, "Student Patent Attorney work" during law school credited to about 50% for seniority, "lit tech adviser" credited for like 3 years.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby DJ JD » Thu May 07, 2015 12:31 am

KidStuddi wrote:MBA will get you advanced a class year at my firm. Work experience might too, but only work you did as an attorney (or at least after you had a JD). If you started off in-house or did consulting after law school and now you're transitioning to a firm or something, maybe you'd get some credit for that, but I've never heard of anyone getting credit for work experience from before three years of law school.

For what it's worth, if you're going to try and negotiate I'd suggest asking for a bonus rather than class years. Yes you get paid more earlier with class advancement, but it also advances your viability clock. If you come in as a 2nd / 3rd year, you've basically got 2-3 years before you start becoming not so attractive for lateral hiring. If your goal in Biglaw is to build a good skill set and resume ahead of a transition into another position as an attorney (government, in-house, to another firm), I think starting at year 1 is really in your best interest.

If your firm is known for thinning out the mid-senior level ranks intentionally, facing up or out pressure earlier doesn't seem like a net win to me either.



How on earth would lateral employers know what year you're coming in at? Assuming you're a 3rd year being paid like a 4th year, wouldn't your resume just say "Associate - Money, Banks, & Soulsucker 2013-2015"?

Don't mean this to be controversial or make it seem like I don't believe you. I'm just genuinely curious.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby Desert Fox » Thu May 07, 2015 7:35 am

DJ JD wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:MBA will get you advanced a class year at my firm. Work experience might too, but only work you did as an attorney (or at least after you had a JD). If you started off in-house or did consulting after law school and now you're transitioning to a firm or something, maybe you'd get some credit for that, but I've never heard of anyone getting credit for work experience from before three years of law school.

For what it's worth, if you're going to try and negotiate I'd suggest asking for a bonus rather than class years. Yes you get paid more earlier with class advancement, but it also advances your viability clock. If you come in as a 2nd / 3rd year, you've basically got 2-3 years before you start becoming not so attractive for lateral hiring. If your goal in Biglaw is to build a good skill set and resume ahead of a transition into another position as an attorney (government, in-house, to another firm), I think starting at year 1 is really in your best interest.

If your firm is known for thinning out the mid-senior level ranks intentionally, facing up or out pressure earlier doesn't seem like a net win to me either.



How on earth would lateral employers know what year you're coming in at? Assuming you're a 3rd year being paid like a 4th year, wouldn't your resume just say "Associate - Money, Banks, & Soulsucker 2013-2015"?

Don't mean this to be controversial or make it seem like I don't believe you. I'm just genuinely curious.


you tell them

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby jbagelboy » Sun May 10, 2015 12:06 pm

myspiritanimal wrote:I generally agree. This is why such a person may hope to come in at a slightly higher level.


nope. it just doesn't work like that.

if you did a 2-3 year analyst stint and went to law school, you'll start as a first year associate with the rest of your class. if you did more time than that and made manager, what the fuck did you go to law school for.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby jbagelboy » Sun May 10, 2015 12:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I know Kirkland and some other V10s do, but do the very top firms (Cravath, Wachtell, S&C) start MBAs as second years?


this isn't a thing FYI. two of these firms are no different from others in that tier

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby myspiritanimal » Mon May 11, 2015 10:26 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:I generally agree. This is why such a person may hope to come in at a slightly higher level.


nope. it just doesn't work like that.

if you did a 2-3 year analyst stint and went to law school, you'll start as a first year associate with the rest of your class. if you did more time than that and made manager, what the fuck did you go to law school for.

There are a number of reasons. Not sure what "manager" means to you, as that's a rather broad designation, but there a certain levels in finance and consulting that require an additional degree. A sort of glass ceiling. I know of various folks that finished analyst stints, did other work, went to law school, and returned to more responsible, money, etc.

What did you do before law school? You may be right about how law school hiring works, but I'm curious as to why you - and others here - speak with authority about non-legal hiring and general employment.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby Cobretti » Mon May 11, 2015 11:15 pm

myspiritanimal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:I generally agree. This is why such a person may hope to come in at a slightly higher level.


nope. it just doesn't work like that.

if you did a 2-3 year analyst stint and went to law school, you'll start as a first year associate with the rest of your class. if you did more time than that and made manager, what the fuck did you go to law school for.

There are a number of reasons. Not sure what "manager" means to you, as that's a rather broad designation, but there a certain levels in finance and consulting that require an additional degree. A sort of glass ceiling. I know of various folks that finished analyst stints, did other work, went to law school, and returned to more responsible, money, etc.

What did you do before law school? You may be right about how law school hiring works, but I'm curious as to why you - and others here - speak with authority about non-legal hiring and general employment.

Everyone in this thread has only been speaking about biglaw hiring

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby myspiritanimal » Mon May 11, 2015 11:17 pm

Cobretti wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:I generally agree. This is why such a person may hope to come in at a slightly higher level.


nope. it just doesn't work like that.

if you did a 2-3 year analyst stint and went to law school, you'll start as a first year associate with the rest of your class. if you did more time than that and made manager, what the fuck did you go to law school for.

There are a number of reasons. Not sure what "manager" means to you, as that's a rather broad designation, but there a certain levels in finance and consulting that require an additional degree. A sort of glass ceiling. I know of various folks that finished analyst stints, did other work, went to law school, and returned to more responsible, money, etc.

What did you do before law school? You may be right about how law school hiring works, but I'm curious as to why you - and others here - speak with authority about non-legal hiring and general employment.

Everyone in this thread has only been speaking about biglaw hiring

Nope. Read the last sentence of the post to which I responded.

Edit: To clarify, I mean employment, inclusive of hiring. It was an honest question - I'm curious.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby Cobretti » Mon May 11, 2015 11:22 pm

myspiritanimal wrote:
Cobretti wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:I generally agree. This is why such a person may hope to come in at a slightly higher level.


nope. it just doesn't work like that.

if you did a 2-3 year analyst stint and went to law school, you'll start as a first year associate with the rest of your class. if you did more time than that and made manager, what the fuck did you go to law school for.

There are a number of reasons. Not sure what "manager" means to you, as that's a rather broad designation, but there a certain levels in finance and consulting that require an additional degree. A sort of glass ceiling. I know of various folks that finished analyst stints, did other work, went to law school, and returned to more responsible, money, etc.

What did you do before law school? You may be right about how law school hiring works, but I'm curious as to why you - and others here - speak with authority about non-legal hiring and general employment.

Everyone in this thread has only been speaking about biglaw hiring

Nope. Read the last sentence of the post to which I responded.

I'm sure he meant associate in biglaw

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 11, 2015 11:54 pm

I meant you'll start as a first year associate in big law. that's what we're talking about right? whether you get class credit for non-law work experience.

and for what it's worth, I was an analyst at an international consulting firm before law school, but that's even not relevant here

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby myspiritanimal » Tue May 12, 2015 3:42 pm

jbagelboy wrote:I meant you'll start as a first year associate in big law. that's what we're talking about right? whether you get class credit for non-law work experience.

and for what it's worth, I was an analyst at an international consulting firm before law school, but that's even not relevant here

Right. But then what did you mean by manager? Sounded as if you were referring to potential growth outside of law as one reason for not going to law school. Perhaps I'm wrong.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby dabigchina » Tue May 12, 2015 3:51 pm

myspiritanimal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I meant you'll start as a first year associate in big law. that's what we're talking about right? whether you get class credit for non-law work experience.

and for what it's worth, I was an analyst at an international consulting firm before law school, but that's even not relevant here

Right. But then what did you mean by manager? Sounded as if you were referring to potential growth outside of law as one reason for not going to law school. Perhaps I'm wrong.


in professional services firms, manager is somewhat equivalent to a midlevel/senior at a firm. if you are in accounting/consulting this level is where the better exit ops start becoming available to you. usually you get there with 5-6 years of experience. on the consulting side you might need a graduate degree to get there.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby myspiritanimal » Tue May 12, 2015 3:58 pm

dabigchina wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I meant you'll start as a first year associate in big law. that's what we're talking about right? whether you get class credit for non-law work experience.

and for what it's worth, I was an analyst at an international consulting firm before law school, but that's even not relevant here

Right. But then what did you mean by manager? Sounded as if you were referring to potential growth outside of law as one reason for not going to law school. Perhaps I'm wrong.


in professional services firms, manager is somewhat equivalent to a midlevel/senior at a firm. if you are in accounting/consulting this level is where the better exit ops start becoming available to you. usually you get there with 5-6 years of experience. on the consulting side you might need a graduate degree to get there.

Exactly. My point is apropos your last sentence. Many such positions require a graduate degree. I've been told this more than a few times now. A glass ceiling of sorts exists at times, and a top legal or business degree is necessary for one to break through. So, it's not always the case that a good "manager" position is sufficient reason to not go to law school. (Of course, sometimes it is. But, it's situational.)

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby dabigchina » Tue May 12, 2015 4:18 pm

myspiritanimal wrote:
dabigchina wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I meant you'll start as a first year associate in big law. that's what we're talking about right? whether you get class credit for non-law work experience.

and for what it's worth, I was an analyst at an international consulting firm before law school, but that's even not relevant here

Right. But then what did you mean by manager? Sounded as if you were referring to potential growth outside of law as one reason for not going to law school. Perhaps I'm wrong.


in professional services firms, manager is somewhat equivalent to a midlevel/senior at a firm. if you are in accounting/consulting this level is where the better exit ops start becoming available to you. usually you get there with 5-6 years of experience. on the consulting side you might need a graduate degree to get there.

Exactly. My point is apropos your last sentence. Many such positions require a graduate degree. I've been told this more than a few times now. A glass ceiling of sorts exists at times, and a top legal or business degree is necessary for one to break through. So, it's not always the case that a good "manager" position is sufficient reason to not go to law school. (Of course, sometimes it is. But, it's situational.)


not in accounting. I have never heard of any firm that requires an advanced degree to make it to manager. the CPA is usually required but that does not necessarily require a masters.

if you are already manager and you want to stay in whatever industry you are in, then obviously you would not go to law school. if you want to be a lawyer then you would go to law school. for instance, i am up for promotion to manager in tax accounting this year but since i hate tax compliance i am going to law school to get the credentials i need to become a tax attorney.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby myspiritanimal » Tue May 12, 2015 4:35 pm

dabigchina wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:
dabigchina wrote:
myspiritanimal wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I meant you'll start as a first year associate in big law. that's what we're talking about right? whether you get class credit for non-law work experience.

and for what it's worth, I was an analyst at an international consulting firm before law school, but that's even not relevant here

Right. But then what did you mean by manager? Sounded as if you were referring to potential growth outside of law as one reason for not going to law school. Perhaps I'm wrong.


in professional services firms, manager is somewhat equivalent to a midlevel/senior at a firm. if you are in accounting/consulting this level is where the better exit ops start becoming available to you. usually you get there with 5-6 years of experience. on the consulting side you might need a graduate degree to get there.

Exactly. My point is apropos your last sentence. Many such positions require a graduate degree. I've been told this more than a few times now. A glass ceiling of sorts exists at times, and a top legal or business degree is necessary for one to break through. So, it's not always the case that a good "manager" position is sufficient reason to not go to law school. (Of course, sometimes it is. But, it's situational.)


not in accounting. I have never heard of any firm that requires an advanced degree to make it to manager. the CPA is usually required but that does not necessarily require a masters.

if you are already manager and you want to stay in whatever industry you are in, then obviously you would not go to law school. if you want to be a lawyer then you would go to law school. for instance, i am up for promotion to manager in tax accounting this year but since i hate tax compliance i am going to law school to get the credentials i need to become a tax attorney.

Perhaps in accounting, but not in other fields. Also, in at least some of those fields, and certainly in the ones I'm referring to, levels aren't binary (i.e., manager or non-manager). There are various levels, and it often helps to have a top advanced degree in business or law.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue May 12, 2015 9:51 pm

SFSpartan wrote:If that exceptional experience is an A3 clerkship, then firms typically offer a substantial bonus. For example, SCOTUS clerks got $300k bonuses last year.

Some practice groups may pay out significant bonuses to build specific practice areas as well. I think a couple years back Quinn was offering extra $$ to patent litigators with a CS/EE background.


Yeah, well the bolded sure as HELL is not happening anywhere now. Patent litigation should be near the bottom of your list of prospective practice areas if you are looking for a firm job these days.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby 2014 » Wed May 13, 2015 9:21 am

bball25 wrote:Kirkland is a very top firm. HTH.


This is stupid there wouldn't be a V5 if V10 was the very top.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Wed May 13, 2015 9:47 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
SFSpartan wrote:If that exceptional experience is an A3 clerkship, then firms typically offer a substantial bonus. For example, SCOTUS clerks got $300k bonuses last year.

Some practice groups may pay out significant bonuses to build specific practice areas as well. I think a couple years back Quinn was offering extra $$ to patent litigators with a CS/EE background.


Yeah, well the bolded sure as HELL is not happening anywhere now. Patent litigation should be near the bottom of your list of prospective practice areas if you are looking for a firm job these days.


Nah, it's just the big V20s who only took massive competitor suits that are in trouble. The smartphone wars created a fuckton of business.

People talk about troll reform fucking the market, but the reforms on the table now won't do shit. But the real problem is that there isn't a lot of non-commodity work going around right now. Firms that grew fat on smartphone wars have no replacement. But firms who never did a ton of that aren't that bad.

The v20 business model doesn't allow for people fucking with 2 mil fee cases.

I wouldn't wanna be the guy whose done 5 years of ROGs and RFPs with no tech degree at Quinn or MOFO, but if you can read a semiconductor patent, you are fine.


Brother, I am worried about the dearth of lateral openings. Relatively few firms are looking for IP lit bros these days, even ones with tech backgrounds.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby alphasteve » Wed May 13, 2015 3:01 pm

Desert Fox wrote:My firm is looking right now. But it is hard to tell how the market is. I get calls from recruiters on the reg but that could be entirely flame. Sometimes they call without a specific opening.

I've seen a lot of openings too. Some big firm, some smaller stuff. I don't think any group is really expanding, but there seems to be a decent amount of lateral in the "replacement" headcount market. Agreed on those without EE/CS background (as someone without it) - the "trial firms" (e.g. Quinn/GD/Mofo) seem to be shrinking in patent lit, which were where many openings were. Also, PTAB practice is and will continue to grow and having a reg number is very helpful/almost necessary to get into that work at all.

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Re: Starting biglaw salaries

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri May 15, 2015 3:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
alphasteve wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:My firm is looking right now. But it is hard to tell how the market is. I get calls from recruiters on the reg but that could be entirely flame. Sometimes they call without a specific opening.

I've seen a lot of openings too. Some big firm, some smaller stuff. I don't think any group is really expanding, but there seems to be a decent amount of lateral in the "replacement" headcount market. Agreed on those without EE/CS background (as someone without it) - the "trial firms" (e.g. Quinn/GD/Mofo) seem to be shrinking in patent lit, which were where many openings were. Also, PTAB practice is and will continue to grow and having a reg number is very helpful/almost necessary to get into that work at all.


Yea if you aren't doing PTAB, you aren't doing patent lit right now.


What's going on in the PTAB will eventually bring down the patent system, though.

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