Value of being on a Law Journal

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:47 pm

thisislife49 wrote:Thank you all for the advice! In regards to some of your questions, I have no drive to go into BigLaw and plan to go into the public sector (PD, DA, or AG) upon graduation. My school really pushes for clerkships, but I am uncertain if that is the route I want to take. I have externships next semester that will allow me to gain "real world" experience, but will have to pass them up if I get onto a journal. I understand the "prestige" law journals carry, but I am not enthused by the idea of editing articles my 2L year. I am definitely willing to put in the "hard work," but part of me feels I would gain so much more from the "real world" experience. In addition, the secondary journals sounded much more interesting that Law Review, but by the sounds of it, there is no point to do one of those journals.

Can anyone shed light on gaining employment within the public sector WITHOUT law journal experience?

Why would you have to give up the externships if you end up on a journal?

k5220
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby k5220 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:08 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
thisislife49 wrote:Thank you all for the advice! In regards to some of your questions, I have no drive to go into BigLaw and plan to go into the public sector (PD, DA, or AG) upon graduation. My school really pushes for clerkships, but I am uncertain if that is the route I want to take. I have externships next semester that will allow me to gain "real world" experience, but will have to pass them up if I get onto a journal. I understand the "prestige" law journals carry, but I am not enthused by the idea of editing articles my 2L year. I am definitely willing to put in the "hard work," but part of me feels I would gain so much more from the "real world" experience. In addition, the secondary journals sounded much more interesting that Law Review, but by the sounds of it, there is no point to do one of those journals.

Can anyone shed light on gaining employment within the public sector WITHOUT law journal experience?

Why would you have to give up the externships if you end up on a journal?

Yeah I agree- you can and probably should do both. Journals are unfortunately one of those boxes employers--including a lot of public sector employers--expect you to be able to check off, and not having a journal can be a disadvantage. I did journal and a really intensive "real world" clinic 2L, and it was a lot of work but I was fine. I think most 2Ls are in that boat.

I would do law review if the option was open to me, but a secondary journal is probably a fine substitute if you'd really rather do that (especially if the journal slants toward public service and you know that's what you want to do).

thisislife49
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby thisislife49 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:01 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
thisislife49 wrote:Thank you all for the advice! In regards to some of your questions, I have no drive to go into BigLaw and plan to go into the public sector (PD, DA, or AG) upon graduation. My school really pushes for clerkships, but I am uncertain if that is the route I want to take. I have externships next semester that will allow me to gain "real world" experience, but will have to pass them up if I get onto a journal. I understand the "prestige" law journals carry, but I am not enthused by the idea of editing articles my 2L year. I am definitely willing to put in the "hard work," but part of me feels I would gain so much more from the "real world" experience. In addition, the secondary journals sounded much more interesting that Law Review, but by the sounds of it, there is no point to do one of those journals.

Can anyone shed light on gaining employment within the public sector WITHOUT law journal experience?

Why would you have to give up the externships if you end up on a journal?


B/c of how credits and other classes lined up.

thisislife49
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby thisislife49 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:02 am

k5220 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
thisislife49 wrote:Thank you all for the advice! In regards to some of your questions, I have no drive to go into BigLaw and plan to go into the public sector (PD, DA, or AG) upon graduation. My school really pushes for clerkships, but I am uncertain if that is the route I want to take. I have externships next semester that will allow me to gain "real world" experience, but will have to pass them up if I get onto a journal. I understand the "prestige" law journals carry, but I am not enthused by the idea of editing articles my 2L year. I am definitely willing to put in the "hard work," but part of me feels I would gain so much more from the "real world" experience. In addition, the secondary journals sounded much more interesting that Law Review, but by the sounds of it, there is no point to do one of those journals.

Can anyone shed light on gaining employment within the public sector WITHOUT law journal experience?

Why would you have to give up the externships if you end up on a journal?

Yeah I agree- you can and probably should do both. Journals are unfortunately one of those boxes employers--including a lot of public sector employers--expect you to be able to check off, and not having a journal can be a disadvantage. I did journal and a really intensive "real world" clinic 2L, and it was a lot of work but I was fine. I think most 2Ls are in that boat.

I would do law review if the option was open to me, but a secondary journal is probably a fine substitute if you'd really rather do that (especially if the journal slants toward public service and you know that's what you want to do).


Good to know-- I'll try and work my schedule to make both fit in!

BigZuck
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:42 am

thisislife49 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
thisislife49 wrote:Thank you all for the advice! In regards to some of your questions, I have no drive to go into BigLaw and plan to go into the public sector (PD, DA, or AG) upon graduation. My school really pushes for clerkships, but I am uncertain if that is the route I want to take. I have externships next semester that will allow me to gain "real world" experience, but will have to pass them up if I get onto a journal. I understand the "prestige" law journals carry, but I am not enthused by the idea of editing articles my 2L year. I am definitely willing to put in the "hard work," but part of me feels I would gain so much more from the "real world" experience. In addition, the secondary journals sounded much more interesting that Law Review, but by the sounds of it, there is no point to do one of those journals.

Can anyone shed light on gaining employment within the public sector WITHOUT law journal experience?

Why would you have to give up the externships if you end up on a journal?


B/c of how credits and other classes lined up.

What other classes?

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xael
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby xael » Tue May 05, 2015 8:33 pm

Bump

Don't do a secondary journal just don't

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star fox
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby star fox » Wed May 06, 2015 12:05 am

xael wrote:Bump

Don't do a secondary journal just don't

Most people have to.

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goden
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby goden » Wed May 06, 2015 12:12 am

bjsesq wrote:I didn't do it. OCI went fine. Fuck a write on.

Edited for Brut: I was lit. Nobody asked, nobody cared.

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LawsRUs
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby LawsRUs » Wed May 06, 2015 2:46 am

Can I ask for people who were on LR or a secondary journal AND were not on the editorial board, how many hours per week was your commitment?
Conversely, for people who did not do LR or a secondary journal, did you attempt the write-on at all?

Thank you!

BigZuck
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 06, 2015 8:27 am

LawsRUs wrote:Can I ask for people who were on LR or a secondary journal AND were not on the editorial board, how many hours per week was your commitment?
Conversely, for people who did not do LR or a secondary journal, did you attempt the write-on at all?

Thank you!

Depends on the secondary journal but if you're just a peon at my school the commitment is anywhere between like 10-30 hours a semester. I think law review is like at least 70 hours or something like that.

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ggocat
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby ggocat » Wed May 06, 2015 9:44 am

LawsRUs wrote:Can I ask for people who were on LR or a secondary journal AND were not on the editorial board, how many hours per week was your commitment?
Conversely, for people who did not do LR or a secondary journal, did you attempt the write-on at all?

Thank you!

A friend and I each put in about 300 hours during 2L for law review because we were assigned a beast of a manuscript. About 100-150 was more common.

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AreJay711
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby AreJay711 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:47 am

Journals are awful, but I think I learned a lot . . . most importantly, how hard it is to be fired from a volunteer position.

BigZuck
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 06, 2015 10:50 am

AreJay711 wrote:I think I learned a lot

Not sure if serious

I'll bite: What did you learn?

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haus
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby haus » Wed May 06, 2015 10:57 am

BigZuck wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I think I learned a lot

Not sure if serious

I'll bite: What did you learn?

Now, I am merely a 1L, but I think may learned...
AreJay711 wrote:how hard it is to be fired from a volunteer position.

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AreJay711
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby AreJay711 » Wed May 06, 2015 11:01 am

BigZuck wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I think I learned a lot

Not sure if serious

I'll bite: What did you learn?


The Bluebook. I remember looking over the writing sample of the my buddy who wasn't on a journal and realizing that I was just head and shoulders about him. Maybe that's less important at a biglaw shop (do they have paralegals cite check?).

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KD35
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby KD35 » Wed May 06, 2015 11:03 am

edit. Misread.
Last edited by KD35 on Wed May 06, 2015 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am

I think he meant per semester? (I know the original question asked per week.)

At my school, as a 2L you got 2 cite-checks per semester (I think? I don't think it was 3) and they took maybe 5-10 hours (10 only if you got something nasty and filled with, like, foreign congressional testimony or the like). Plus note-writing. As a 3L, you signed on for either 1 credit or 2 credits per semester, and I think you had to do 50 hours total to get a credit? I can't remember if that's right, but something like that.

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LawsRUs
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby LawsRUs » Wed May 06, 2015 12:05 pm

Thanks for your answers. Can I also ask if in general the authors of these articles that you have to cite-check actually attempt to cite properly their sources? For instance, if they quote from Palsgraf, would they put

1. Palsgraf v. Long Island R.R. Co., Ct. of App. of N.Y., 248 N.Y. 339, 162 N.E. 99 (N.Y. 1928). (and you just need to double check on their citation, or is it more like)
2. Palsgraf 340 (and you have to cite for them?).

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haus
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby haus » Wed May 06, 2015 12:08 pm

LawsRUs wrote:Thanks for your answers. Can I also ask if in general the authors of these articles that you have to cite-check actually attempt to cite properly their sources? For instance, if they quote from Palsgraf, would they put

1. Palsgraf v. Long Island R.R. Co., Ct. of App. of N.Y., 248 N.Y. 339, 162 N.E. 99 (N.Y. 1928). (and you just need to double check on their citation, or is it more like)
2. Palsgraf 340 (and you have to cite for them?).

I suspected it would be more like...
3. That case near the train and the package exploded....

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KD35
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby KD35 » Wed May 06, 2015 12:10 pm

LawsRUs wrote:Thanks for your answers. Can I also ask if in general the authors of these articles that you have to cite-check actually attempt to cite properly their sources? For instance, if they quote from Palsgraf, would they put

1. Palsgraf v. Long Island R.R. Co., Ct. of App. of N.Y., 248 N.Y. 339, 162 N.E. 99 (N.Y. 1928). (and you just need to double check on their citation, or is it more like)
2. Palsgraf 340 (and you have to cite for them?).


Neither of those are actually right under the BB but you see authors do the second. Never seen an author do the first.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed May 06, 2015 12:21 pm

I never saw authors just not include the info for a citation, so it would be more like 1 than 2. Lots of other issues with citations, but never "I'm not even going to pretend to include the case info."

BigZuck
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 06, 2015 12:40 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I never saw authors just not include the info for a citation, so it would be more like 1 than 2. Lots of other issues with citations, but never "I'm not even going to pretend to include the case info."

I'm starting to suspect that either

a)Nony didn't actually work on a journal (or even go to law school for that matter. She's just here for the unfettered power that is being a mod)

Or

b)Nony's law review got unusually good submissions

Or

c)My journal gets unusually bad submissions

It's probably C though.

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Yukos
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby Yukos » Wed May 06, 2015 1:13 pm

Of the articles I've worked on, one had the straight up "case name and page, you do the rest," one used a citation format other than BB (not sure if it was Chicago or MLA, but it was a pain to fix every single cite) and the rest approximated BB. Most people can do cases no problem (maybe mess up some of the abbreviations), but anything beyond cases will be a mess. TBF some of the BB rules serve no purpose except to make people mess up.

abl
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby abl » Wed May 06, 2015 1:15 pm

BigZuck wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I never saw authors just not include the info for a citation, so it would be more like 1 than 2. Lots of other issues with citations, but never "I'm not even going to pretend to include the case info."

I'm starting to suspect that either

a)Nony didn't actually work on a journal (or even go to law school for that matter. She's just here for the unfettered power that is being a mod)

Or

b)Nony's law review got unusually good submissions

Or

c)My journal gets unusually bad submissions

It's probably C though.


FWIW, on both of the journals that I was on (HYS primary and a top HYS secondary) authors 99% of the time at least tried to cite the article correctly. I'd say that the vast majority of citations we saw were pretty darn close to perfect -- but pretty darn close ain't good enough: there are so many things that can go wrong with a citation (and typically so many citations per page) that even an author who's getting things >90% right will have a dozen or more errors per page. I don't know if I ever got through a page without catching some error.

Incidentally, across the board (in terms of not only carefulness, but substance), the best articles I saw were usually from young profs (or wannabe-be profs) without much of a publication history, and the worst articles I saw were from the established famous-ish folk. Big name profs or profs at the top schools--especially tenured profs--generally get a lot of help in writing their articles from RAs, which means that a huge amount of the thought that went into the article actually comes from some 2L. Writing a good article takes much more than a brilliant idea. It takes a huge amount of time and care--more than most professors publishing multiple articles per year can reasonably devote. And, for that matter, you can probably count on one hand the number of professors currently alive who have truly had dozens of brilliant ideas over the course of their careers (yet it is common to see established professors with 20+ publications).

On the other hand, young professors or wannabe professors have generally slaved over every detail of the article themselves (and then usually vetted their article by a number of the big name profs). This is why I'm genuinely mystified when I hear people talk about letterhead bias at most law reviews (there was none at mine). If law reviews really are automatically rejecting or seriously disadvantaging articles written by folks who don't yet have a teaching placement, or by folks with only 1 or so previous publications, they are generally missing a huge proportion of the best scholarship written in that year. I'm not saying that letterhead is unimportant: the chances that a median student at a non-elite school just happened to stumble on an incredible idea and executed that idea (after failing to get into a good law school and then failing to excel in his or her current law school) are, well, not great. It isn't just a coincidence that most academics come out of the top law schools (and usually have a clerkship or an additional grad degree). But the idea that an established publication history is a good indicator of future brilliance in publication is, well, fairly off-base: a law review without time to read all of its submissions (and I'm skeptical that any law review falls into this category--my HYS law review read all of our submissions, and I can't imagine many law reviews received more than we did) wishing to screen out the worst articles can do so in better ways than looking at letterhead or publication history. So many of the articles submitted are clearly not appropriate for publication in a top law review, that it's fairly easy to skim something like 30% off of the top just based on the topic + abstract + first ~3 pages. (I say this with one caveat: I do think there's some predictive value to *bad* letterhead or unimpressive publications. So, for example, a professor who graduated from Kent who is currently at Indiana Tech and has three publications in the Valpo Journal of Law and Social Commentary probably hasn't written a great fourth article. I'm mostly just saying that I think there's little negative predictive value for a top law school graduate's lack of letterhead / publication history, yet my sense is that not being published anywhere/not currently teaching anywhere can be a deal killer for many law reviews.)
Last edited by abl on Wed May 06, 2015 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KD35
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby KD35 » Wed May 06, 2015 1:16 pm

BigZuck wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I never saw authors just not include the info for a citation, so it would be more like 1 than 2. Lots of other issues with citations, but never "I'm not even going to pretend to include the case info."

I'm starting to suspect that either

a)Nony didn't actually work on a journal (or even go to law school for that matter. She's just here for the unfettered power that is being a mod)

Or

b)Nony's law review got unusually good submissions

Or

c)My journal gets unusually bad submissions

It's probably C though.


Not just you, Zuck. We had some bad submissions.




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