Value of being on a Law Journal

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RareExports
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby RareExports » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:53 am

Does this general sentiment to avoid secondaries also apply outside of the T14? Is it more important at a T20 to be on any journal to supplement your grades than it would be inside the T14? Curious solely about its impact on OCI.

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sublime
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby sublime » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:01 am

..

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sublime
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby sublime » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:02 am

..

BlackAndOrange84
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:04 am

The answer to OP's question depends a great deal on what kind of school OP attends and what kind of job he wants out of school. At my regional, T30ish school, there aren't too many folks who get biglaw or good midlaw jobs and aren't on the flagship journal. And the vast majority of folks I know who did LR got some kind of good job at 2L OCI. It may be that at a T14 or even T20 being on LR is less important, but my impression is that at more regional schools it's much more important. But if OP doesn't want biglaw or midlawesque options, it doesn't matter at all where he's going to school.

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xael
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby xael » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:05 pm

I think being on a secondary journal actually hurt me during the 1L job search. Mostly because interviewers would ask me about it and what the article was about, but the only part of that article I had read was my 35 footnotes and the accompanying pages.

That was probably my fault though.

abl
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby abl » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:23 pm

If you're not at a T14 and are aiming high, you can use all of the help that you can get. Now, whether being a generic editor on a secondary journal is better than whatever else you'd spend your time doing (placing high in moot court?) is a tough question. But ideally you'd probably want to try to do all of the above: because journal is semi-expected for the more competitive places, if you don't do some journal at a non-T14 and are shooting for competitive positions, you better have done something pretty solid to make up for it.

FSK
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby FSK » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:25 pm

To be fair, I actually liked writing my note in the end. But production work is basically worse than putting your balls/clit/whateverbitsyouhave in a pasta maker.

girlrunning
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby girlrunning » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:03 pm

I did law review because 1) I had the opportunity to do so and 2) I am a K-JD with no real WE who wanted big law in a secondary (very closed up) market and had nothing to show qualifications other than a super nerdy undergrad resume and ties.

During 1L SA, while we (SAs) waited to hear back from law review and journals, the corporate attys. said to not worry because I wasn't a big deal (with the understanding that we all had good grades and were there for that reason). A lot of these attys. had done law review and I'm sure realized it wasn't valuable as far as skills are concerned and grades get you in the door.

Anecdotally, a few classmates with similar or better grades than me with no ties to the market and no law review or moot court (or anything other than good grades) didn't fare very well in the market. It seemed like the firms wanted at least something more than just good grades as seen by some of the law review non-ties kids making it.

FWIW, I didn't feel that my commitment to the journal as a 2L was such a huge deal that it took away from grades or other things I like to do outside of law school. I did moot court (lapse in judgment, friends asked me to) and THAT took a ton of time in comparison with anything I've done for law review.

TL;DR Find out how much work you'll have to do for journal and if it won't kill you and you can do it, just do it.

abl
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby abl » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:50 pm

abl wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
moejoe193 wrote:Does the lack of value of secondary journals still hold for HYS?


Unless you're really interested in whatever niche your journal publishes, I think a secondary journal has even less significance at HYS because your resume already stands out.

However, if you're at HYS, you're probably an overachiever and will do a secondary journal anyway because everybody else did. My advice would be to pick a journal that requires only 2-3 hours of work a semester. There are a couple at H and presumably at YS too.


I found the experience valuable (both primary and secondary journal work at HYS). All journals teach you to be detail-oriented, which is one of the most important skills you can develop as a lawyer. Learning how to bluebook is only part of that (although it is an important part of that). And, I found that I learned a ton by engaging substantively with the articles and authors, as well as with fellow editors regarding the articles.

I think one important difference between HYS secondary journals and secondary journals elsewhere is the quality of the articles that you get. Not all HYS secondary journals are created equal, but many of them (such as the various law & policy journals as well as a number of field-specific journals) attract really high quality scholarship. When I was submitting my first law review article, I was advised to only accept a publication from a top 75-100 flagship journal OR a HYS secondary journal (with 4-5 non-HYS secondary journals known for excellence in my field thrown in). I think that's pretty common advice, and as a consequence, HYS secondary journals get legit flagship journal-quality articles. That's not necessarily going to be the case at the secondary journals for a lot of other excellent schools. This is obviously something you'll have to evaluate on a journal-by-journal basis, but I think it's probably fair to start with the presumption that a HYS secondary is legit and the presumption that a non-HYS(CCN) secondary is not legit for these purposes.


Another thing: law review is a signal that you're willing to work hard (and not just on the most glamorous sorts of assignments). Like attention to detail, that's an incredibly important skill to have as a young lawyer. The more I've thought about it, the more I've remembered instances in which a hiring decision has been impacted by this. It is, of course, possible to overcome lack of law journal for most jobs. But it is often going to be something that you will have to overcome--often by showing elsewhere in your resume that you're careful, willing to work hard, etc.

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bjsesq
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby bjsesq » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:52 pm

Law review is seen as a proxy for grades and is a prestige bullet on the site website. Don't kid yourself about this hard work nonsense.

abl
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby abl » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:03 pm

bjsesq wrote:Law review is seen as a proxy for grades and is a prestige bullet on the site website. Don't kid yourself about this hard work nonsense.


I'm just parroting what I've heard hiring partners / judges say. I also think that attention to detail and hard work are two of the strongest signals you can reasonably get from law review. Nowhere I've been involved in hiring has cared about the grades aspect of law review: we always had a more complete transcript from the candidate (usually along with class rank) than what would have gone into the law review decision, so law review added effectively nothing on that front. (Also, not all schools use grades as the basis of law review decisions, and few schools have exclusively grade-on law reviews.) Prestige might matter in some places, but I suspect that the folks who are actually thinking about why they prioritize law review in hiring (and everywhere that I've been has put this level of thought into hiring decisions) do so for largely other reasons.

I do think that law review will often help folks develop as a reader, as a writer, as an editor, and as a worker (and as a manager for those who take on board positions): arguably the most important skills for young lawyers. It doesn't for everyone, but I do think that folks who are willing to put a lot into journal will usually get a lot out. That's not to say that law review is the only or the best way of developing these skills in law review. I think it's worth considering the marginal advantage of law review over other uses of your time (such as clinic)--law review is a pretty inefficient way to develop skills besides attention-to-detail.
Last edited by abl on Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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xael
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby xael » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:07 pm

abl wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
moejoe193 wrote:Does the lack of value of secondary journals still hold for HYS?


Unless you're really interested in whatever niche your journal publishes, I think a secondary journal has even less significance at HYS because your resume already stands out.

However, if you're at HYS, you're probably an overachiever and will do a secondary journal anyway because everybody else did. My advice would be to pick a journal that requires only 2-3 hours of work a semester. There are a couple at H and presumably at YS too.


I found the experience valuable (both primary and secondary journal work at HYS). All journals teach you to be detail-oriented, which is one of the most important skills you can develop as a lawyer. Learning how to bluebook is only part of that (although it is an important part of that). And, I found that I learned a ton by engaging substantively with the articles and authors, as well as with fellow editors regarding the articles.

I think one important difference between HYS secondary journals and secondary journals elsewhere is the quality of the articles that you get. Not all HYS secondary journals are created equal, but many of them (such as the various law & policy journals as well as a number of field-specific journals) attract really high quality scholarship. When I was submitting my first law review article, I was advised to only accept a publication from a top 75-100 flagship journal OR a HYS secondary journal (with 4-5 non-HYS secondary journals known for excellence in my field thrown in). I think that's pretty common advice, and as a consequence, HYS secondary journals get legit flagship journal-quality articles. That's not necessarily going to be the case at the secondary journals for a lot of other excellent schools. This is obviously something you'll have to evaluate on a journal-by-journal basis, but I think it's probably fair to start with the presumption that a HYS secondary is legit and the presumption that a non-HYS(CCN) secondary is not legit for these purposes.


I can assure everyone reading this that this is not true. All the articles are crap.

abl
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby abl » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:09 pm

xael wrote:
abl wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
moejoe193 wrote:Does the lack of value of secondary journals still hold for HYS?


Unless you're really interested in whatever niche your journal publishes, I think a secondary journal has even less significance at HYS because your resume already stands out.

However, if you're at HYS, you're probably an overachiever and will do a secondary journal anyway because everybody else did. My advice would be to pick a journal that requires only 2-3 hours of work a semester. There are a couple at H and presumably at YS too.


I found the experience valuable (both primary and secondary journal work at HYS). All journals teach you to be detail-oriented, which is one of the most important skills you can develop as a lawyer. Learning how to bluebook is only part of that (although it is an important part of that). And, I found that I learned a ton by engaging substantively with the articles and authors, as well as with fellow editors regarding the articles.

I think one important difference between HYS secondary journals and secondary journals elsewhere is the quality of the articles that you get. Not all HYS secondary journals are created equal, but many of them (such as the various law & policy journals as well as a number of field-specific journals) attract really high quality scholarship. When I was submitting my first law review article, I was advised to only accept a publication from a top 75-100 flagship journal OR a HYS secondary journal (with 4-5 non-HYS secondary journals known for excellence in my field thrown in). I think that's pretty common advice, and as a consequence, HYS secondary journals get legit flagship journal-quality articles. That's not necessarily going to be the case at the secondary journals for a lot of other excellent schools. This is obviously something you'll have to evaluate on a journal-by-journal basis, but I think it's probably fair to start with the presumption that a HYS secondary is legit and the presumption that a non-HYS(CCN) secondary is not legit for these purposes.


I can assure everyone reading this that this is not true. All the articles are crap.


I know we love to bash on academia here at TLS (and in the world of practice more generally), but this is obviously not true. This is also really a conversation for a separate thread.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:18 pm

bjsesq wrote:Law review is seen as a proxy for grades and is a prestige bullet on the site website. Don't kid yourself about this hard work nonsense.

I actually agree that it's a proxy for hard work, particularly on stuff you have no personal investment in. I get that in reality people do as little work as possible for journal, but I think it's still seen as a signal for willingness to slog for others in something you feel no personal satisfaction about. What other quality is more useful in a new associate?

Jay2716
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby Jay2716 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:28 pm

I think it depends on the school. At my T-20, almost everyone who does write on gets a journal. I talked to an alum from a NYC firm who says he auto-dings kids from our school without one because he assumes they are awful writers or lazy. I think if secondary journals are competitive or you're at a T-14 the value is lower.

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BVest
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby BVest » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:33 pm

Jay2716 wrote:I think if secondary journals are competitive . . . the value is lower.


?

Jay2716
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby Jay2716 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:49 pm

BVest wrote:
Jay2716 wrote:I think if secondary journals are competitive . . . the value is lower.


?


Yeah, I know it seems counterintuitive. Maybe wasn't the best way to phrase it. I guess my point is I haven't seen anything on here that leads me to believe that secondary journals give students much of a boost at most schools. At a school where journal participation is nearly universal, however, I think not participating is a detriment more than participating is a boost.

If journal participation is competitive, not bring on one won't stand out. At my school, you could be the only person the interviewer sees that day without one.

mightymouse23
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby mightymouse23 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:53 pm

The value is simple: a lot of law firms either require or strongly prefer applicants that are on a journal. Just put in the extra effort, get the additional legal writing/editing experience, and reap the benefits either directly or indirectly in your career.

hdunlop
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby hdunlop » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:12 pm

xael wrote:I think being on a secondary journal actually hurt me during the 1L job search. Mostly because interviewers would ask me about it and what the article was about, but the only part of that article I had read was my 35 footnotes and the accompanying pages.

That was probably my fault though.


Should have just quoted from the Business Lady thread. Honestly those article ideas are almost certainly several orders of magnitude better anyway

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby ManoftheHour » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:11 am

xael wrote:I think being on a secondary journal actually hurt me during the 1L job search. Mostly because interviewers would ask me about it and what the article was about, but the only part of that article I had read was my 35 footnotes and the accompanying pages.

That was probably my fault though.

lol, that happened to me too at a firm interview.

I couldn't lie to them. All I learned was how to Bluebook.

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star fox
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby star fox » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:49 am

I'm doing it cuz I need a law school activity

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby ManoftheHour » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:02 am

Other than Editors in Chief, do the other positions matter (I'm assuming EIC matters...)?

Like is there even a slight a difference between Managing Articles Editor, Senior Section Writer, Senior Articles Editor, or Business Editor?

thisislife49
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby thisislife49 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:53 pm

Thank you all for the advice! In regards to some of your questions, I have no drive to go into BigLaw and plan to go into the public sector (PD, DA, or AG) upon graduation. My school really pushes for clerkships, but I am uncertain if that is the route I want to take. I have externships next semester that will allow me to gain "real world" experience, but will have to pass them up if I get onto a journal. I understand the "prestige" law journals carry, but I am not enthused by the idea of editing articles my 2L year. I am definitely willing to put in the "hard work," but part of me feels I would gain so much more from the "real world" experience. In addition, the secondary journals sounded much more interesting that Law Review, but by the sounds of it, there is no point to do one of those journals.

Can anyone shed light on gaining employment within the public sector WITHOUT law journal experience?

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Nonconsecutive
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby Nonconsecutive » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:03 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:Other than Editors in Chief, do the other positions matter (I'm assuming EIC matters...)?

Like is there even a slight a difference between Managing Articles Editor, Senior Section Writer, Senior Articles Editor, or Business Editor?


Based on speaking to graduates and employers, the difference between all these editing titles is extremely low, if it counts for anything (the one exception I was told about is if you are interviewing with someone who is an alum of that exact journal and therefore actually knows what the position entails). But I'm a 1L just regurgitating what I've been told. Either way, I got to the lowest level where I could put "Editor" on my resume and I plan on just riding that position until I'm done because everything past this point is shit load of work.

k5220
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Re: Value of being on a Law Journal

Postby k5220 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:27 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:Other than Editors in Chief, do the other positions matter (I'm assuming EIC matters...)?

Like is there even a slight a difference between Managing Articles Editor, Senior Section Writer, Senior Articles Editor, or Business Editor?

I've heard judges say that they look for students to be on the board of their journal because it shows leadership or that your peers respect you or something like that. After EIC I think most positions sound about the same from that angle, and I've never heard of board positions mattering outside of clerkship hiring but I could be wrong.

I'm not on the board of my journal and I'm pretty glad I dodged that bullet. From the outside, it looks like so much work, and I've been able to use my time on things I find much more productive (internships, clinics, volunteering with student groups, etc.)




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