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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:25 pm
by Hikikomorist
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Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:34 pm
by sublime
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Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:44 pm
by starry eyed
i feel this contributes to op's point/question. how do y'all base y'all's knowledge of how important ties are? by callback percentage? look of displeasure in the interviewer's face when you tell them you're not a good ol boy?

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:45 pm
by BigZuck
People are going to disagree, cuz anecdotes

I bet this thread has been made already. Or, people can search for the market they desire and ties and read up on it

Of the ones I have had some experience with or know people who do it's probably something like

NYC<LA<Houston<San Francisco<Dallas

There's places like Boston and Chicago that exist but I have no idea where to place them. I don't think this thread will work.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:47 pm
by jitsrenzo
According to this article, ties matter even for New York, even if they matter the least relative to other markets.

http://www.lawfirminterviews.com/article?post_id=108989901579&title=2-surprising-things-i-learned-from-reading-the

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:48 pm
by sublime
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Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:51 pm
by sublime
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Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:51 pm
by checkers
I'm not sure where everyone else is getting their information. On average, I would say NY is the most ties-sensitive. Business causal has yet to catch on in any meaningful way.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:25 pm
by TheOnePercent
checkers wrote:On average, I would say NY is the most ties-sensitive. Business causal has yet to catch on in any meaningful way.

White shoe for the win...dsor knot.

/showing myself out

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:33 pm
by sheishkabob
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Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:01 pm
by rnoodles
TheOnePercent wrote:
checkers wrote:On average, I would say NY is the most ties-sensitive. Business causal has yet to catch on in any meaningful way.

White shoe for the win...dsor knot.

/showing myself out


I think it's best knot to encourage this kind of behavior, TheOnePercent.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:33 pm
by banjo
starry eyed wrote:i feel this contributes to op's point/question. how do y'all base y'all's knowledge of how important ties are? by callback percentage? look of displeasure in the interviewer's face when you tell them you're not a good ol boy?


-A few firms explicitly mention ties on their job postings
-Some firms will ignore apps from people without clear ties in their cover letter or resume
-Some firms will respond to your mass mail and simply ask, "Thanks for your email. What are your ties to ______?" That actually happened to me.
-Some firms will grill you during your screener
-Some firms will grill you at your screener and every interview at your callback. Also happened to me.

If the firm wants ties, you'll know. Basically, outside of NYC, you should always have some kind of ties "pitch" ready to go.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:15 pm
by fisheatbananas
OP said 'major markets' so not sure if this counts, but PWC (Portland and Seattle) is one of the hardest to break into and you'll want strong ties

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:27 pm
by Hikikomorist
fisheatbananas wrote:OP said 'major markets' so not sure if this counts, but PWC (Portland and Seattle) is one of the hardest to break into and you'll want strong ties


OP is a 0L idiot, so post whatever you think might be helpful.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:57 am
by fisheatbananas
Hikkomorist wrote:
fisheatbananas wrote:OP said 'major markets' so not sure if this counts, but PWC (Portland and Seattle) is one of the hardest to break into and you'll want strong ties


OP is a 0L idiot, so post whatever you think might be helpful.


haha ok, i am a 0L idiot too

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:09 am
by girlrunning
Southern markets, especially for the more desirable "big/cool" cities, are incredibly tie sensitive.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:43 am
by hearsay77
This is probably a stupid question but can anyone explain to me why exactly ties are so important to firms? Like why are they concerned if you want to move across the country to a new place or not? Is it because you're more of a flight risk without any ties to the area?

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:56 am
by Br3v
hearsay77 wrote:This is probably a stupid question but can anyone explain to me why exactly ties are so important to firms? Like why are they concerned if you want to move across the country to a new place or not? Is it because you're more of a flight risk without any ties to the area?

Yes.

And you might be a net loss for the firm your first year, so they don't really want to subsidize you trying out a new city only to leave.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:27 am
by Other25BeforeYou
Br3v wrote:
hearsay77 wrote:This is probably a stupid question but can anyone explain to me why exactly ties are so important to firms? Like why are they concerned if you want to move across the country to a new place or not? Is it because you're more of a flight risk without any ties to the area?

Yes.

And you might be a net loss for the firm your first year, so they don't really want to subsidize you trying out a new city only to leave.

And you are almost definitely a net loss when you're a summer associate. While firms care about flight risks generally, they really don't want someone to try out a city for a summer, get an offer and then turn around and accept a job in a market they like more. That puts the firm in the position of (a) being out the summer associate salary, (b) looking less than great since a summer who spent three months there doesn't want to return, and (c) potentially having to find a 3L to replace that person who the firm will offer a real job to despite not having gotten to kick the tires during the summer.

Another big concern is that they will offer you the 2L summer job over someone else, you will keep the offer in your back pocket for a week or two while trying to find a job in your first choice market, and in the meantime their backup choices will be accepting jobs at other firms. If you have ties you're more likely to accept the job offer (and accept it quickly) because it's more likely you're actually targeting that market.

I was targeting a ties-sensitive market at OCI, and despite having strong ties, the firms weren't entirely sold on my dedication to the area (and therefore on giving me an offer) until I explained that I wasn't interviewing with a single NYC firm.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:31 am
by DCNTUA
Philly firms care about ties a lot.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:33 am
by Hikikomorist
Other25BeforeYou wrote:
Br3v wrote:
hearsay77 wrote:This is probably a stupid question but can anyone explain to me why exactly ties are so important to firms? Like why are they concerned if you want to move across the country to a new place or not? Is it because you're more of a flight risk without any ties to the area?

Yes.

And you might be a net loss for the firm your first year, so they don't really want to subsidize you trying out a new city only to leave.

And you are almost definitely a net loss when you're a summer associate. While firms care about flight risks generally, they really don't want someone to try out a city for a summer, get an offer and then turn around and accept a job in a market they like more. That puts the firm in the position of (a) being out the summer associate salary, (b) looking less than great since a summer who spent three months there doesn't want to return, and (c) potentially having to find a 3L to replace that person who the firm will offer a real job to despite not having gotten to kick the tires during the summer.

Another big concern is that they will offer you the 2L summer job over someone else, you will keep the offer in your back pocket for a week or two while trying to find a job in your first choice market, and in the meantime their backup choices will be accepting jobs at other firms. If you have ties you're more likely to accept the job offer (and accept it quickly) because it's more likely you're actually targeting that market.

I was targeting a ties-sensitive market at OCI, and despite having strong ties, the firms weren't entirely sold on my dedication to the area (and therefore on giving me an offer) until I explained that I wasn't interviewing with a single NYC firm.


They're really that concerned about NYC? That fucking sucks. I keep reading about people who took NYC as a last resort and can't wait to leave, so it's a little weird to me that they're convinced everyone without ties is going to leave for being poor in the Big Apple. At the same time, it seems incredibly risky not to bid any NYC firms.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:43 am
by MyNameIsFlynn!
Hikkomorist wrote:
Other25BeforeYou wrote:
Br3v wrote:
hearsay77 wrote:This is probably a stupid question but can anyone explain to me why exactly ties are so important to firms? Like why are they concerned if you want to move across the country to a new place or not? Is it because you're more of a flight risk without any ties to the area?

Yes.

And you might be a net loss for the firm your first year, so they don't really want to subsidize you trying out a new city only to leave.

And you are almost definitely a net loss when you're a summer associate. While firms care about flight risks generally, they really don't want someone to try out a city for a summer, get an offer and then turn around and accept a job in a market they like more. That puts the firm in the position of (a) being out the summer associate salary, (b) looking less than great since a summer who spent three months there doesn't want to return, and (c) potentially having to find a 3L to replace that person who the firm will offer a real job to despite not having gotten to kick the tires during the summer.

Another big concern is that they will offer you the 2L summer job over someone else, you will keep the offer in your back pocket for a week or two while trying to find a job in your first choice market, and in the meantime their backup choices will be accepting jobs at other firms. If you have ties you're more likely to accept the job offer (and accept it quickly) because it's more likely you're actually targeting that market.

I was targeting a ties-sensitive market at OCI, and despite having strong ties, the firms weren't entirely sold on my dedication to the area (and therefore on giving me an offer) until I explained that I wasn't interviewing with a single NYC firm.


They're really that concerned about NYC? That fucking sucks. I keep reading about people who took NYC as a last resort and can't wait to leave, so it's a little weird to me that they're convinced everyone without ties is going to leave for being poor in the Big Apple. At the same time, it seems incredibly risky not to bid any NYC firms.


I think NYC was just an illustration of the fact that some secondaries don't want to play second fiddle to big cities. If nothing in your background really speaks to wanting to be in NYC/other primary market (eg you grew up in Miami, went to UM and want to come back) then youcan dispel the firms concerns just by saying that

But if you legit don't have ties or a good reason to be in secondary / tertiary then yeah, you should be concerned. The firms knows you have no basis for judging whether you'd like living in the city, and so it's less risky for them to take someone who knows and knows they like the area

Eta: also this thread is pretty silly. The strength of ties needed varies dramatically by market, firm, type of firm (national? Regional?), and your school. You'll get better answers if you give deets on your goals and school

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:51 pm
by beautyistruth
fisheatbananas wrote:OP said 'major markets' so not sure if this counts, but PWC (Portland and Seattle) is one of the hardest to break into and you'll want strong ties


I can attest to this. I go to one of CCN and I had lived/gone to undergrad in Seattle. When interviewing at Seattle firms, at least two of my interviewers asked me why I didn't go to UW for law school. From my experience, so much as choosing not to attend law school in the region is enough to make them question the commitment of even a native PNWer. That said, maybe I just had odd interviews.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:52 pm
by unc0mm0n1
Hikkomorist wrote:Everyone talks about how NYC doesn't care about ties, but that most other markets do. Could we get a more specific breakdown of all the major markets and how tie-sensitive they are, all in one place? If you have knowledge of a specific market, please share here.


A lot of this depends on what school you're coming from, how you did in that school and what firm you're shooting for.

Re: Importance of Ties by Market

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:52 pm
by starry eyed
how much is it acceptable to exaggerate ties? do firms inquire into your personal life?

and why do biglaw firms care about ties when they know you won't be around after 3 -5 yrs

edit: found answer to second line