Question about top midlaw firms

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question25
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Question about top midlaw firms

Postby question25 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:25 pm

Hello everyone.

Does anyone here know anything about Davis and Gilbert LLP? I've scoured the internet for clues and it seems pretty well respected and one of the best of the midsize firms in the nation. Supposedly it's #1 in Advertising Law. But I'm interested in Corporate. I've looked for salary statistics and partner:associate ratios. Here's what I could find:

http://www.legal500.com/firms/52264-dav ... 3-new-york

http://salaryquest.com/job-associate-at ... lp-salary/

http://www.vault.com/media/3874296/9990399.pdf


The first link says that for M&A Corp, it's in tier 5? What does this mean?
If I'm reading the second link correctly, this firm can pay it's incoming associates just slightly below market right?
The firm has 43 associates, 6 non equity partners, and 50 equity partners. That's a partner:associate ratio of ~1.3. From what I can tell, the firm barely lets go of any of its associates and is pretty family-friendly. So basically that means working as an associate for about 6 or 7 years at a pay of $150,000 at the start to $250,000 in your later years. Since everyone is practically made partner, you can expect even higher compensation once you make partner at age ~35. Since this firm is at the top of the mid laws firms, it probably has a high profit per partner. So do all the partners here make $600,000 to $2MM+??? How the hell do they manage to make everyone there a partner and offer good hours to keep them working at their firm for so long??? This firm seems like a better deal than most hedge funds.

With midlaw firms like this, why do people even bother trying for the Vault???

Anonymous User
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:27 pm

question25 wrote:Hello everyone.

Does anyone here know anything about Davis and Gilbert LLP? I've scoured the internet for clues and it seems pretty well respected and one of the best of the midsize firms in the nation. Supposedly it's #1 in Advertising Law. But I'm interested in Corporate. I've looked for salary statistics and partner:associate ratios. Here's what I could find:

http://www.legal500.com/firms/52264-dav ... 3-new-york

http://salaryquest.com/job-associate-at ... lp-salary/

http://www.vault.com/media/3874296/9990399.pdf


The first link says that for M&A Corp, it's in tier 5? What does this mean?
If I'm reading the second link correctly, this firm can pay it's incoming associates just slightly below market right?
The firm has 43 associates, 6 non equity partners, and 50 equity partners. That's a partner:associate ratio of ~1.3. From what I can tell, the firm barely lets go of any of its associates and is pretty family-friendly. So basically that means working as an associate for about 6 or 7 years at a pay of $150,000 at the start to $250,000 in your later years. Since everyone is practically made partner, you can expect even higher compensation once you make partner at age ~35. Since this firm is at the top of the mid laws firms, it probably has a high profit per partner. So do all the partners here make $600,000 to $2MM+??? How the hell do they manage to make everyone there a partner and offer good hours to keep them working at their firm for so long??? This firm seems like a better deal than most hedge funds.

With midlaw firms like this, why do people even bother trying for the Vault???


Way better in-house prospects at the Vaults

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los blancos
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby los blancos » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:59 pm

They manage to "make everyone there a partner" because "everyone there" is probably expected to start bringing in business by year 4. That's how at least some midsize firms with low or even reverse (pyramid-shaped) leverage structures work. Like they won't kick you out, but you need to be bringing actual clients into the firm fast, and it can take an eternity to make partner if your book isn't big enough.

It's not a bad deal if you're good at that sort of thing and don't mind working with smaller clients at smaller rates. Questionable exit opps, too, out of midlaw.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:07 pm

Midlaw has fine exit options. Insted of leaving for WalMart you're leaving for John Deere or the local credit union. The clueless snobbery on this website is ridiculous.

desola
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby desola » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:29 pm

I don't know what midlaw is, but i'm at a well-established entertainment boutique and I will say that Davis & Gilbert has an excellent reputation for media work. I don't know a ton about them so I can't speak to salary/partnership any of that, but I will say that in the media space, for a firm that has a single office they are all over the place. I know for a fact they have a solid presence in both LA and the bay (in terms of client representation) which is pretty surprising for an NY-only firm.

their reputation as the go-to firm for that kind of stuff is the only reason they can beat out local firms (including vault firms) for those clients.

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Avian
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby Avian » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:30 pm

question25 wrote:With midlaw firms like this, why do people even bother trying for the Vault???

Just perusing their website, it seems that almost all of their associates lateraled from biglaw. They only had two SAs in 2013 and only recruit from Columbia and NYU.

question25
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby question25 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:28 am

Hmm. It sounds like this firm is one of the hidden gems. An elite midlaw firm with good pay and decent hours..
But if it's considered at the top for advertising, would its corporate department be equally as profitable?
Over all, how do these elite midlaw or boutique firms fare against their V100 competitors? Is it possible that they outperform the top guys in terms of pay?

I'm just confused why so many biglaw associates try to make partner at their firms instead of lateraling and joining an elite midlaw firm where making partner is a given.

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:42 am

question25 wrote:I'm just confused why so many biglaw associates try to make partner at their firms instead of lateraling and joining an elite midlaw firm where making partner is a given.


question25 wrote:Hmm. It sounds like this firm is one of the hidden gems. An elite midlaw firm with good pay and decent hours..


I think you may have answered your own question. There are a lot fewer jobs in "elite midlaw" firms than there are associates who want to leave Biglaw.

question25
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby question25 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:34 am

Yeah I suppose the rarity of these jobs is evidence enough of why most associates don't even think to go this route.
But in all honesty, that probably has more to do with the fact that these firms are SO under the radar that people that don't even think to look for them. I mean just by searching for this firm on the internets, I could barely find any info on them. Maybe if this information was more out in the open, people would be more willing to quit biglaw. Perhaps then people will be more willing to mention similar firms on this forum. Sure it takes a bit of legwork to find them..but once you do, you're pretty much coasting your way into a lucrative partnership.

Hey desola:

Thanks for the info. But overall, do you think with these unknown law firms in niche fields can afford to pay their partners better than anything in the Vault? It just seems too good to be true that with so many partners, and only ~7 or 8 associates leaving per year, the firm could easily dole out 800k and up to each of the 50 equity partners. Also, just how much are these guys working? Or rather, how many hours do the guys put in at your firm? I've talked to several IB friends and they say that the difference between the managing directors at most investment firms and the partners at most law firms is that the directors begin to ease back after hitting age 40-45 because at that point it's mostly about just making connections and meeting with people, while most partners actually work pretty hard alongside their associates.

Sorry if I'm asking what appears to be rather status-obssessed and mundane questions about this field. I'm still a junior in college and I'm basically deciding between whether or not to go to law school or med school. I've done well on my MCAT and could go to med school if I wanted. I haven't taken the LSAT yet, but I'm just double checking before I commit to one career path about the upsides and downsides of either field. The prospect of going into severe debt doesn't make me happy. But if there's a hefty reward at the end of the tunnel, I'd be more willing to jump in.

BigZuck
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby BigZuck » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:41 am

I'm not a lawyer so what do I know but I think you're drastically overestimating how hard it is to get a job at one of these places and how hard it is to make partner there.

BeenDidThat
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby BeenDidThat » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:42 am

question25 wrote:Yeah I suppose the rarity of these jobs is evidence enough of why most associates don't even think to go this route.
But in all honesty, that probably has more to do with the fact that these firms are SO under the radar that people that don't even think to look for them. I mean just by searching for this firm on the internets, I could barely find any info on them. Maybe if this information was more out in the open, people would be more willing to quit biglaw. Perhaps then people will be more willing to mention similar firms on this forum. Sure it takes a bit of legwork to find them..but once you do, you're pretty much coasting your way into a lucrative partnership.

Hey desola:

Thanks for the info. But overall, do you think with these unknown law firms in niche fields can afford to pay their partners better than anything in the Vault? It just seems too good to be true that with so many partners, and only ~7 or 8 associates leaving per year, the firm could easily dole out 800k and up to each of the 50 equity partners. Also, just how much are these guys working? Or rather, how many hours do the guys put in at your firm? I've talked to several IB friends and they say that the difference between the managing directors at most investment firms and the partners at most law firms is that the directors begin to ease back after hitting age 40-45 because at that point it's mostly about just making connections and meeting with people, while most partners actually work pretty hard alongside their associates.

Sorry if I'm asking what appears to be rather status-obssessed and mundane questions about this field. I'm still a junior in college and I'm basically deciding between whether or not to go to law school or med school. I've done well on my MCAT and could go to med school if I wanted. I haven't taken the LSAT yet, but I'm just double checking before I commit to one career path about the upsides and downsides of either field. The prospect of going into severe debt doesn't make me happy. But if there's a hefty reward at the end of the tunnel, I'd be more willing to jump in.


There are way too many contingencies for you to be looking at this kind of thing right now, absent some kind of unique experience and connections in the specific industry in which the firm works (which it sounds like you don't have). Going to law school for the sole purpose of going to an elite midlaw firm, again, absent some extreme circumstance which does not seem to be the case here, is downright dumb. Wtf would you do when you're down a couple hundred K and get shut out because the firm isn't hiring any associates that year?

Law and medicine are very different; you should decide which one you want to go into not based on certain sectors of their employment markets, but rather based on whether you want to do the day-to-day work of a lawyer or a doctor. Or, perhaps, you should take some time off the education train after college to get more real-world experience so you have a better idea of what kind of career you want. This thread is like one big, red flag identifying someone who is going to trap themselves in debt and hate their career.

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:27 pm

question25 wrote:Yeah I suppose the rarity of these jobs is evidence enough of why most associates don't even think to go this route.
But in all honesty, that probably has more to do with the fact that these firms are SO under the radar that people that don't even think to look for them. I mean just by searching for this firm on the internets, I could barely find any info on them. Maybe if this information was more out in the open, people would be more willing to quit biglaw. Perhaps then people will be more willing to mention similar firms on this forum. Sure it takes a bit of legwork to find them..but once you do, you're pretty much coasting your way into a lucrative partnership.

The rarity of these types of jobs is not evidence of a dearth of attorneys who wish to have these jobs, it's evidence that these jobs are rare. Lots and lots and lots of attorneys think to go this route, both before and during biglaw. Lots of them apply. Lots of them don't get any offers.

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los blancos
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby los blancos » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:33 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:Midlaw has fine exit options. Insted of leaving for WalMart you're leaving for John Deere or the local credit union. The clueless snobbery on this website is ridiculous.


No "clueless snobbery". If the exit goal is "in house with local client" then yeah maybe. But if it's e.g., big fed, I have a tougher time believing mid law is going to get you there.

gnuwheels
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Re: Question about top midlaw firms

Postby gnuwheels » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:43 pm

What the hell is "advertising law" anyway. I have never heard of it so it can't be that profitable. There's probably a reason biglaw doesn't do that kind of work. And maybe that's why people don't flock to this firm.




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