Am I Screwed?

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:35 pm

Uschoolqb10 wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:
Jaymore wrote:Lie. The bigger the lie, the more they believe. Say you were volunteering, figuring out what you wanted to do with your life. The place shut down because of funding, so you can't provide a reference. Or you moved between volunteer positions a lot, so you can't provide a reference. There is no website because there was no funding for a website. And you then decided to go to law school, but because of timing you had to wait a year. So you spent that year travelling. Boom.

Or you decided to spend a year or two chasing your dream of being an artist/actor (depending on how attractive you are), but that fell through so you moved on and decided to go to law school. You had to give it a shot, even though the odds were against you.

That's two plausible lies off the top of my head.

A surprising amount of the time employers don't check this shit out. People are naturally lazy (especially people with no motivation like HR people), and predisposed to believe the best of you. If they have trouble finding information they will just give up and assume you are telling the truth. Especially for something minor like what you did before law school.

Also exaggerate your travels.

If I may ask, why didn't you do anything over the last two years?

Sounds like a horrible idea.

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DCfilterDC
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby DCfilterDC » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:50 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:Unrelated, but after reading some of DFs and others posts, if you were heavily involved in internships (interned every summer, interned a year at a big place, etc.) does this actually help you when it comes to snagging jobs post law school? Or at least at summer gigs? Or is really useless?

Undergrad summer internships? I don't think they'll substantially help, but not having them would hurt. They're not going to give a shit about the actual substance (unless you're a PI dude), but just having something to talk about in an interview is really all that matters. Also indicates you had some level of drive and aren't lazy af.


Ah alright. So I guess I can take that as a somewhat positive that people that just have a relevant undergraduate internship in a field of law I'm interviewing for won't be at a huge advantage.

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hoos89
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby hoos89 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:54 pm

Iagreetotheseterms wrote:There's still six months, get an internship or volunteer somewhere. It's pretty easy to get a volunteering gig. Then do the same for 1L.

You have now discovered your passion, what you were built for the law, so now you get to work on something related.

If it's something related to depression look for help.

Don't join the army just to get a job, that's a ridiculous idea.


Who said anything about a passion? Not many 0Ls even have a good idea of what lawyers actually do.

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Iagreetotheseterms
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Iagreetotheseterms » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:07 pm

hoos89 wrote:
Iagreetotheseterms wrote:There's still six months, get an internship or volunteer somewhere. It's pretty easy to get a volunteering gig. Then do the same for 1L.

You have now discovered your passion, what you were built for the law, so now you get to work on something related.

If it's something related to depression look for help.

Don't join the army just to get a job, that's a ridiculous idea.


Who said anything about a passion? Not many 0Ls even have a good idea of what lawyers actually do.


It's not about that, it's about crafting a narrative of redemption. OP was lost now he has seen the light.

What else is he going to do? He could lie and then perhaps it works, or perhaps he gets caught and blacklisted.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:10 pm

Uschoolqb10 wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:
Jaymore wrote:Lie. The bigger the lie, the more they believe. Say you were volunteering, figuring out what you wanted to do with your life. The place shut down because of funding, so you can't provide a reference. Or you moved between volunteer positions a lot, so you can't provide a reference. There is no website because there was no funding for a website. And you then decided to go to law school, but because of timing you had to wait a year. So you spent that year travelling. Boom.

Or you decided to spend a year or two chasing your dream of being an artist/actor (depending on how attractive you are), but that fell through so you moved on and decided to go to law school. You had to give it a shot, even though the odds were against you.

That's two plausible lies off the top of my head.

A surprising amount of the time employers don't check this shit out. People are naturally lazy (especially people with no motivation like HR people), and predisposed to believe the best of you. If they have trouble finding information they will just give up and assume you are telling the truth. Especially for something minor like what you did before law school.

Also exaggerate your travels.

If I may ask, why didn't you do anything over the last two years?

Sounds like a horrible idea.


If you are going to lie, make it more believable than "volunteering at a place that doesn't exist anymore" sounds weird.

I'd do "Freelance X" where X is something you can do. So if you studied programming say, Freeland Software Engineer.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:19 pm

bjsesq wrote:Your grades>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your mooch lifestyle for two years

Chill the fuck out.


I really don't think so. Grades are like a weeding out tool. They still need a reason to hire you. Mooch lifestyle is not a good look.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby UnicornHunter » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:23 pm

Iagreetotheseterms wrote:There's still six months, get an internship or volunteer somewhere. It's pretty easy to get a volunteering gig. Then do the same for 1L.

You have now discovered your passion, that you were built for the law, so now you get to work on something related.

If it's something related to depression look for help.

Don't join the army just to get a job, that's a ridiculous idea.


EDITED: Spelling Error.


It's not "just to get a job" it's "just to get a job that you can talk about in interviews and will make law school free." But let's pretend I said Coast Guard if it makes you feel better.

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hoos89
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby hoos89 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:25 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
bjsesq wrote:Your grades>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your mooch lifestyle for two years

Chill the fuck out.


I really don't think so. Grades are like a weeding out tool. They still need a reason to hire you. Mooch lifestyle is not a good look.


Especially from T30 where nobody is really "biglaw secure" and firms are looking for a reason to throw your resume in the trash.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:30 pm

hoos89 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
bjsesq wrote:Your grades>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your mooch lifestyle for two years

Chill the fuck out.


I really don't think so. Grades are like a weeding out tool. They still need a reason to hire you. Mooch lifestyle is not a good look.


Especially from T30 where nobody is really "biglaw secure" and firms are looking for a reason to throw your resume in the trash.


I don't really get how school caliber makes a difference. IMO still looks awful if you were at Harvard (bcause Yale wouldn't admit this person)

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pamphleteer
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby pamphleteer » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:34 pm

exitoptions wrote:As someone who interviews people pretty regularly, I wouldn't even look at someone with a two year gap where they lived with their parents. But, I know there are plenty of people who don't care. I would hedge the risk by going to a better law school.


Sorry to thread-jack but out of curiosity how bad does a five-month gap (including June/July/August) between quitting a job and starting law school look?

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rpupkin
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby rpupkin » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:37 pm

pamphleteer wrote:
exitoptions wrote:As someone who interviews people pretty regularly, I wouldn't even look at someone with a two year gap where they lived with their parents. But, I know there are plenty of people who don't care. I would hedge the risk by going to a better law school.


Sorry to thread-jack but out of curiosity how bad does a five-month gap (including June/July/August) between quitting a job and starting law school look?

Not bad at all. People likely won't even notice.

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hoos89
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby hoos89 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:54 pm

pamphleteer wrote:
exitoptions wrote:As someone who interviews people pretty regularly, I wouldn't even look at someone with a two year gap where they lived with their parents. But, I know there are plenty of people who don't care. I would hedge the risk by going to a better law school.


Sorry to thread-jack but out of curiosity how bad does a five-month gap (including June/July/August) between quitting a job and starting law school look?


Yeah no big deal. You can probably write your resume in a way that nobody could even tell.

Okie25
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Okie25 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:25 pm

I was a political science major so I don't really have any other options. I won't have any debt after graduating but if my chances of getting a job are already damaged, should I even go? Looking at UIUC/Iowa/SMU

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Iagreetotheseterms
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Iagreetotheseterms » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:51 pm

Okie25 wrote:I was a political science major so I don't really have any other options. I won't have any debt after graduating but if my chances of getting a job are already damaged, should I even go? Looking at UIUC/Iowa/SMU


As are your chances of ever getting any job, who will hire someone with a 2 year gap. You might as well give up on all productive endeavors right now.

OP I was in a situation similar to yours, I started off volunteering, then eventually I got a "real job". It won't be as a big issue if you own up to it and show you've changed.

You could also be a teacher, that's also a good job for people that don't know what to do. Only a year of school and you can still work at least part time while in school.

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Iagreetotheseterms
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Iagreetotheseterms » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:58 pm

TheUnicornHunter wrote:
Iagreetotheseterms wrote:There's still six months, get an internship or volunteer somewhere. It's pretty easy to get a volunteering gig. Then do the same for 1L.

You have now discovered your passion, that you were built for the law, so now you get to work on something related.

If it's something related to depression look for help.

Don't join the army just to get a job, that's a ridiculous idea.


EDITED: Spelling Error.


It's not "just to get a job" it's "just to get a job that you can talk about in interviews and will make law school free." But let's pretend I said Coast Guard if it makes you feel better.



Yeah and perhaps die, get one's legs blown off, or suffer ptsd. I'd rather work at McDonalds I can talk about how it was a social experiment or to provide material for my book. It will be kind of like Down and Out in Paris and London.

Thank you, I'm touched that you care about my feelings.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:49 pm

Okie25 wrote:I was a political science major so I don't really have any other options. I won't have any debt after graduating but if my chances of getting a job are already damaged, should I even go? Looking at UIUC/Iowa/SMU

By your username I'm assuming you are from Oklahoma? SMU is the only place that'd make sense, unless you want to move to and live in Illinois for the foreseeable future (Iowa makes no possible sense). But still, SMU is probably not worth the cost for your parents.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:50 pm

Iagreetotheseterms wrote:You could also be a teacher, that's also a good job for people that don't know what to do. Only a year of school and you can still work at least part time while in school.

die

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yomisterd
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby yomisterd » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:55 pm

what does it feel like to run out of things to watch on netflix?

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star fox
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby star fox » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:40 am

Okie25 wrote:I was a political science major so I don't really have any other options. I won't have any debt after graduating but if my chances of getting a job are already damaged, should I even go? Looking at UIUC/Iowa/SMU

Mass mail every 25-30K job within a commutable distance from your parents house. Work for two years. Then go to law school (if you still want to).

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:12 am

yomisterd wrote:what does it feel like to run out of things to watch on netflix?


I can answer this since my ugpa was <3.0. You just end up spending a ton of time browsing netflix, like opening the fridge every 10 minutes to see if anything has changed.

k5220
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby k5220 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:32 am

I don't think you're too screwed. You might have to address questions about the gap in interviews, and so you will need a decent answer, but there are enough things you can do to offset it that you could be okay by the time 2L summer interviews come around.

I agree with the posters above who said you should try to get a job now and put off law school for a bit, just to make things look a little better and distance yourself from the gap. Or at least do some volunteer work between now and law school.

You can also work really hard in law school to get substantive experience early on, by joining student groups that do real things like client intakes or administrative hearings or uncontested divorces or whatever, or trying to find a professor to be an RA for, which will help make up for some of your lack of experience, give you something relevant to talk about in interviews, and make you look a little less lazy. (If the experience is substantive enough, you can also list it in the experience section of your resume to fill it out a bit). If you frontload this kind of stuff early enough in the semester, you should still be able to invest in finals studying just fine.

Getting an unpaid summer job for your 1L summer shouldn't be too hard, and if you work to fill in your resume with volunteer experience, RA positions, and whatnot, you could put yourself back in a normal-enough position for 2L summer interviews.

DJ JD
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby DJ JD » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:33 am

DCfilterDC wrote:Unrelated, but after reading some of DFs and others posts, if you were heavily involved in internships (interned every summer, interned a year at a big place, etc.) does this actually help you when it comes to snagging jobs post law school? Or at least at summer gigs? Or is really useless?


It's not so much that OP didn't do internships; it's that OP didn't do ANYTHING for two whole years.

Law firms want smart people, but above all else, they want go getters. Why? Because although the firm is modeled so that 95%+ of them will never see partner, they want those people who believe that they're the exception to the rule while billing 2400/yr, because billing maniacally, even if you don't fit into the firm's long term plans, is still profitable.

If I looked at a resume with a 2 year black hole, I'd see a person who'd have no problem billing the bare minimum to survive long enough to pay off loans and bail, and I have little doubt interviewers would see it any differently.

EricHosmer
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby EricHosmer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:30 am

Say you went all Henry David Thoreau for two years before deciding that living richly is better than living deliberately. Also say you have bronchitis.

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052220152
Tradition Never Changes. Neither do Champions.
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby 052220152 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:38 am

DCfilterDC wrote:Unrelated, but after reading some of DFs and others posts, if you were heavily involved in internships (interned every summer, interned a year at a big place, etc.) does this actually help you when it comes to snagging jobs post law school? Or at least at summer gigs? Or is really useless?


just as a general rule, people in the work force dont care that you interned

Okie25
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Re: Am I Screwed?

Postby Okie25 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:52 pm

Thanks for all the input. I've been calling/emailing firms for the last three days to try and get a job (paid/unpaid) doing anything. Any advise on how to do this since I've had no luck so far. Also applied for a couple volunteer positions. I've got a very good scholarship and have already wasted a lot of time so I really would like to start this fall. If I had known this would be that big of an issue I would've done something before. One question I have is can I put helping with the family business on my resume? I actually did do this a bit throughout college/after graduating. I wasn't getting paid or anything, since my parents already paid for college/will help with law school, but I did do some work.




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