Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

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utahraptor
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby utahraptor » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:41 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
utahraptor wrote:it's not a big deal

they're just trying to show you some mercy so you don't delude yourself the way that those giving "helpful advice" deluded themselves


I remember you said you did really well in T6 despite not trying hard. Is it luck, or innate talent? Gotta be one of the two right. What's your opinion. Do you think if you worked harder, you'd do even better?


First, I didn't do amazingly well. There are people who did better than I did ITT/I know many who did better than I did.

But to answer your question, neither. I get lucky and apparently can write in a way that's easily parsed during exams. The only thing that I can parse out is that I do better when I'm less stressed. That's not shocking. I'd agree with beepboopbeep that I didn't do as well when I studied harder. But, that doesn't work for everyone. Some people grind out really good grades. Some people never go to class and get good grades. This isn't shocking—most exams are just reading and writing things quickly. That's not "innate" but it's also not super learnable. It's a skill you've either developed at this point or you haven't, and it's unlikely that you know whether you've developed that skill before you attend.

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ymmv
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby ymmv » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:43 pm

runinthefront wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:*recounts 1L year*


This thread is pretty good as is but are we just blowing past Johann admitting to cheating on a law school exam?

Or maybe I'm just misreading that part


omg



I think this is more common than people assume. I've heard several people admit to cheating in P/F classes and I really don't doubt it happens all the time for graded take homes too.

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runinthefront
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby runinthefront » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:44 pm

that's really shitty to hear.

BigZuck
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:45 pm

ymmv wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:*recounts 1L year*


This thread is pretty good as is but are we just blowing past Johann admitting to cheating on a law school exam?

Or maybe I'm just misreading that part


omg



I think this is more common than people assume. I've heard several people admit to cheating in P/F classes and I really don't doubt it happens all the time for graded take homes too.


The straight copy/pasting seems especially stupid

But it's kinda a cool anecdote for both the topic at hand and supporting the point that law professors are absolutely worthless and terrible

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:47 pm

I blew past it because I thought he was just bullshitting. The law professor didn't realize he's reading two identical papers with 75/2000 different words?

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twenty
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby twenty » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:49 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:The law professor didn't realize he's reading two identical papers with 75/2000 different words?


It's almost like grades are pretty much arbitrary or something!

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:50 pm

BigZuck wrote:
This thread is pretty good as is but are we just blowing past Johann admitting to cheating on a law school exam?

Or maybe I'm just misreading that part

nice catch
Last edited by Ron Don Volante on Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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utahraptor
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby utahraptor » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:51 pm

like, here's my personal favorite anecdote from 1L stuff—

I was in a study group with some good people. We worked together because we could deal with each other and not because we were trying to build an amazing brain trust. We were all prepared for torts, but we weren't as prepared for civ pro or contracts. The day before the civ pro exam, I was explaining various (pretty basic) parts of the law to my friends. The day before the contracts exam, they were correcting me on areas of law that I had completely wrong. They ended up doing very well in civ pro (I think one booked it; both were TAs) and I did better than they did in contracts.

We didn't know it yet, but one of them was an absolute beast and would end up with amazing grades. (and, he's a great person with a normal life! shocking!) Many of us did quite well, and some ended up at median.

But, we all had read many practice exams written by the others. We had taught each other the material. We went through the same process and studied about the same amount.

I think that the dude who destroyed us is probably way smarter than us. (He's also just a better person than I am, so I'm totally OK with that) but the rest of us were the same. If you had asked me who I thought would do best, I'd say the person who ended up with the worst grades—he was certainly the most skilled writer and could put things more cogently than we could. He knew the law just as well.

So, what's the answer? It seems pretty random to me. Not completely random, but random enough that I have absolutely no pride in my law school grades. Similarly, someone could tell me that they were in the bottom 10% of the class, and it wouldn't change my estimation of them whatsoever.

Entering the legal profession consists of a series of ineffective screening mechanisms that you run through in sequence. The earlier that you make peace with that, the better.

I'd still say that interviewing is probably a more learnable skill than law school exams, and that if you're really trying to STRIVE or ensure that you get a job, your time is better spent there than taking five more property practice exams.
Last edited by utahraptor on Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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utahraptor
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby utahraptor » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:51 pm

also yeah, I don't read Johan's posts so I totally missed that

seems incomprehensible to me

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:55 pm

utahraptor wrote:I'd still say that interviewing is probably a more learnable skill than law school exams, and that if you're really trying to STRIVE or ensure that you get a job, your time is better spent there than taking five more property practice exams.


So if I'm just really fuckin unlucky and end up at a percentile below 100-biglawplacement, you're saying I can make up for that with hygiene, a smile, and good manners?

At the end of the day I want the job I want. Doesn't matter if I used grades or a silver tongue to get there. Whichever is more learnable I guess. But it couldn't hurt to have both.

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utahraptor
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby utahraptor » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:00 pm

It's best to have both. But, you can have great grades and strike out. You can have bad grades and get a job.

My perspective is skewed by my school, but being a good interviewer/having good things to talk about in interviews seems to help.

I think a small group of people has an uphill battle to climb because of their pre-law school work experience (if it was too PI focused, if it looks like they don't want to work in their target market) and those are things that can be better fixed by interview prep than by grades.

That said, realize that many/most law job interviews consist of bullshitting about your shared interests than other things. You'll probably spend more time talking about movies/books/sports/hobbies than you will spend talking about THE LAW.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:03 pm

So really if I want a job I better start watching ESPN 24/7.

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utahraptor
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby utahraptor » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:04 pm

No this is my way of saying that you're doomed because you're a weirdo.

kaiser
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby kaiser » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:06 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:So really if I want a job I better start watching ESPN 24/7.


I literally got 3 interviews (and 1 job offer) based on my ability to chat about classic sci fi movies.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:07 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
utahraptor wrote:I'd still say that interviewing is probably a more learnable skill than law school exams, and that if you're really trying to STRIVE or ensure that you get a job, your time is better spent there than taking five more property practice exams.


So if I'm just really fuckin unlucky and end up at a percentile below 100-biglawplacement, you're saying I can make up for that with hygiene, a smile, and good manners?

Yes and no. If you're below the cutoffs for jobs that care about grades, you can still get a job - it just becomes about getting relevant experience and getting to know as many people in your chosen field as you can. So yes, ability to interview/present yourself well (which is a little more complicated than hygiene and good manners) becomes paramount. That job probably won't be biglaw,* but it will be a job.

And even with good grades, most of the time you need to interview well.

*unless maybe your parent is the CEO of a major client or the like? Or you have other connections? I mean, there are a lot of factors - employment isn't as mechanistic as admissions. Box-checking helps but only goes so far.

So really if I want a job I better start watching ESPN 24/7.

You seem kind of determined to take all this in the most objectionable way possible.

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Chevron Deference
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby Chevron Deference » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:08 pm

Write on to law review.

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swampman
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby swampman » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:09 pm

utahraptor wrote:No this is my way of saying that you're doomed because you're a weirdo.

lol

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:10 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
So really if I want a job I better start watching ESPN 24/7.

You seem kind of determined to take all this in the most objectionable way possible.


It was a joke Nony.

I get it. My fate is in the hands of a higher power and there isn't much I can do but roll with it.

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runinthefront
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby runinthefront » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:19 pm

Congratulations!

/end thread

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:21 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
So really if I want a job I better start watching ESPN 24/7.

You seem kind of determined to take all this in the most objectionable way possible.


It was a joke Nony.

I get it. My fate is in the hands of a higher power and there isn't much I can do but roll with it.


If you are beginning to recognize the risk maybe you should try to mitigate that risk by attending a school with great placement power on a large scholarship.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:23 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
So really if I want a job I better start watching ESPN 24/7.

You seem kind of determined to take all this in the most objectionable way possible.


It was a joke Nony.

I get it. My fate is in the hands of a higher power and there isn't much I can do but roll with it.


If you are beginning to recognize the risk maybe you should try to mitigate that risk by attending a school with great placement power on a large scholarship.


Mal beat me to it. Control as many variables as possible before you make a 6 figure gamble. Ideally, make the gamble with somebody else's money. This is TLS.

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hoos89
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby hoos89 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:32 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
utahraptor wrote:I'd still say that interviewing is probably a more learnable skill than law school exams, and that if you're really trying to STRIVE or ensure that you get a job, your time is better spent there than taking five more property practice exams.


So if I'm just really fuckin unlucky and end up at a percentile below 100-biglawplacement, you're saying I can make up for that with hygiene, a smile, and good manners?

At the end of the day I want the job I want. Doesn't matter if I used grades or a silver tongue to get there. Whichever is more learnable I guess. But it couldn't hurt to have both.


Law firms don't just cut out the top X% of the class and take them. People well within the school's big law placement rate will strike out, and people outside it will get offers.


Also, even if you're the best issue spotter taker in the WORLD it won't matter much if all of your exams are policy based or whatever. I had one professor who gave a standard issue spotter every year prior (at least that's what every practice exam he gave us was). The actual exam? 100% policy questions. These are the kind of things that make law school so unpredictable. Also, you said something about it being 3% luck in your OP. It's way more than that. Seriously, the difference between being randomly assigned to one professor or another can be the difference between booking an exam and being below median.

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romothesavior
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:35 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
So really if I want a job I better start watching ESPN 24/7.

You seem kind of determined to take all this in the most objectionable way possible.


It was a joke Nony.

I get it. My fate is in the hands of a higher power and there isn't much I can do but roll with it.

No, the point is to go to a good law school for your career goals and limit debt as much as possible. People who bank their career and financial future on being in the top of their law school classes are objectively foolish.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:38 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:attending a school with great placement power on a large scholarship.


Isn't this a given anyway? Regardless of whether you know how well you'll do in law school.

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runinthefront
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby runinthefront » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:42 pm

are all 1400 of your 0L posts this bad




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