Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

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AReasonableMan
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:35 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:my assumption is not that they worry, but that they would prefer that they do. unless there is a conflict normal people prefer that those they encounter be better off because of them. also giving an A generates less stress than giving a C. you never know who is gonna be annoying enough to cry to the dean. even if you're buddy-buddy with the dean, the e-mail chain of did joe shmo deserve c takes away valuable minesweeper time.

Profs don't really think this way.

maybe it's just my school but in almost all classes they say i'd give you all a's if i could. i was being sarcastic above, but i think most of them would inherently rather give all a's than all c's. doing this helps their employer as well as individuals they have somewhat gotten to know and reaffirms that they are good teachers.

kcdc1
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby kcdc1 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:38 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:my assumption is not that they worry, but that they would prefer that they do. unless there is a conflict normal people prefer that those they encounter be better off because of them. also giving an A generates less stress than giving a C. you never know who is gonna be annoying enough to cry to the dean. even if you're buddy-buddy with the dean, the e-mail chain of did joe shmo deserve c takes away valuable minesweeper time.

Profs don't really think this way.

Maybe not all, but some certainly do. One prof directly told me that she'd rather give A's because it creates less work for her. Others have said that they don't like the curve because their students are generally smart and hardworking, and it's not fun to put smart, hardworking people at the bottom of the curve.

Small sample size, but I'd bet that at least at T14 schools, this thought process is common.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby Desert Fox » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:42 pm

It's probably 60-70% who give good grades or mad the curve. Adjuncts are way nicer imo.

I spent a lot of time gaming grades at nw. Some profs just hand out Bs even if try are nice.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:It's probably 60-70% who give good grades or mad the curve. Adjuncts are way nicer imo.

I spent a lot of time gaming grades at nw. Some profs just hand out Bs even if try are nice.


that's an amazing sentence

TheoO
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby TheoO » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:03 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
star fox wrote:I took it as a given that a) professors max out the curve (one Prof. made it clear he always does) and b) if they don't have to curve, they won't. I've seen elsewhere that half of Northwestern students finish cum laude because of that.


This is far from universally true. There are many 1L profs who grade towards the lower end of the curve. Luck of the section draw.


Wasn't there a CLS conlaw prof who gave out a shit ton of Cs one year? Fucking boomer, man...

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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:15 pm

TheoO wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
star fox wrote:I took it as a given that a) professors max out the curve (one Prof. made it clear he always does) and b) if they don't have to curve, they won't. I've seen elsewhere that half of Northwestern students finish cum laude because of that.


This is far from universally true. There are many 1L profs who grade towards the lower end of the curve. Luck of the section draw.


Wasn't there a CLS conlaw prof who gave out a shit ton of Cs one year? Fucking boomer, man...

what's the link b/w C's and being a boomer?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:32 pm

Grade inflation. Back when boomers went to school, curves were lowers/GPAs didn't matter as much, so they figure a C is fine. And you awful millenials are too coddled/should have the same experience the boomers did/etc etc.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:43 pm

TheoO wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
star fox wrote:I took it as a given that a) professors max out the curve (one Prof. made it clear he always does) and b) if they don't have to curve, they won't. I've seen elsewhere that half of Northwestern students finish cum laude because of that.


This is far from universally true. There are many 1L profs who grade towards the lower end of the curve. Luck of the section draw.


Wasn't there a CLS conlaw prof who gave out a shit ton of Cs one year? Fucking boomer, man...


Most recent deplorable use of C's has been Kraus and Rapaczynski to my knowledge.

AReasonableMan
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:50 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Grade inflation. Back when boomers went to school, curves were lowers/GPAs didn't matter as much, so they figure a C is fine. And you awful millenials are too coddled/should have the same experience the boomers did/etc etc.

right, but i'm sure law professors are aware of the legal economy. don't you think deans have discussed the legal economy at some point in a staff meeting over the past 7 years? it's kinda the most important change in the entire law school industry, and it'd be poor business judgment not to bring it up at some point.

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ymmv
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby ymmv » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:53 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Grade inflation. Back when boomers went to school, curves were lowers/GPAs didn't matter as much, so they figure a C is fine. And you awful millenials are too coddled/should have the same experience the boomers did/etc etc.

right, but i'm sure law professors are aware of the legal economy. don't you think deans have discussed the legal economy at some point in a staff meeting over the past 7 years? it's kinda the most important change in the entire law school industry, and it'd be poor business judgment not to bring it up at some point.


Assuming professors are aware of anything in the real world in more than a superficial sense is usually a bad bet.

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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby TheoO » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:09 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
TheoO wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
star fox wrote:I took it as a given that a) professors max out the curve (one Prof. made it clear he always does) and b) if they don't have to curve, they won't. I've seen elsewhere that half of Northwestern students finish cum laude because of that.


This is far from universally true. There are many 1L profs who grade towards the lower end of the curve. Luck of the section draw.


Wasn't there a CLS conlaw prof who gave out a shit ton of Cs one year? Fucking boomer, man...


Most recent deplorable use of C's has been Kraus and Rapaczynski to my knowledge.


My 3L mentor was in that conlaw class. Apparently the professor was a circuit judge or a fed district judge who handed out a way above normal number of Cs that year. He was chastised by the school for it, but his grades continued to be tighter than the curve called for. I don't see him on the conlaw faculty, so maybe he isn't at the school anymore.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:45 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Grade inflation. Back when boomers went to school, curves were lowers/GPAs didn't matter as much, so they figure a C is fine. And you awful millenials are too coddled/should have the same experience the boomers did/etc etc.

right, but i'm sure law professors are aware of the legal economy. don't you think deans have discussed the legal economy at some point in a staff meeting over the past 7 years? it's kinda the most important change in the entire law school industry, and it'd be poor business judgment not to bring it up at some point.

Dude, they don't care. They won the legal employment game, they don't get it's not like that for everyone. I mean, boomers still think people can pay for school by working their way through. They need to uphold STANDARDS, etc. etc.

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pancakes3
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby pancakes3 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:48 pm

Tangentially, boomer doctors have this dgaf aloofness also. Boomers gonna boom.

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Hopefully2012
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby Hopefully2012 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:49 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Grade inflation. Back when boomers went to school, curves were lowers/GPAs didn't matter as much, so they figure a C is fine. And you awful millenials are too coddled/should have the same experience the boomers did/etc etc.

right, but i'm sure law professors are aware of the legal economy. don't you think deans have discussed the legal economy at some point in a staff meeting over the past 7 years? it's kinda the most important change in the entire law school industry, and it'd be poor business judgment not to bring it up at some point.

Dude, they don't care. They won the legal employment game, they don't get it's not like that for everyone. I mean, boomers still think people can pay for school by working their way through. They need to uphold STANDARDS, etc. etc.

I agree. The people who won the game (e.g., law professors) tend to believe the traditional rules of the game were fair and will fight against any change.

I had a similar discussion with respect to write-on competitions for law review. There's so much bullshit during our write-on but when my friends and I advocated for changing the write-on competition to make more sense, the vast majority of people fought us on it because "tradition", "standards", etc, etc are important. I'm sure if we polled the people who didn't make law review, they'd think differently.

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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby TheoO » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:52 pm

I know a good number of profs who were decent about it. One of them said that to ameliorate it somewhat, he would be willing to give stellar recommendations to those who got Bs or lower. It was a nice way to acknowledge the reality of it. He was also apologetic about it, saying he had to give a certain amount of grades at the end of the day. I can respect that.

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DCNTUA
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby DCNTUA » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:53 pm

My somewhat-young civ pro professor was like "they'll change law school to two years over my dead body derp." He completely dismissed students who brought up cost, saying that it's always been three years and people need to do their time.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:57 pm

I know there are definitely profs who are decent about grades/the curve/etc, but there's definitely a cadre who aren't, is all.

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star fox
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby star fox » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:22 pm

DCNTUA wrote:My somewhat-young civ pro professor was like "they'll change law school to two years over my dead body derp." He completely dismissed students who brought up cost, saying that it's always been three years and people need to do their time.

Well yeah, they have a strong personal incentive not to lower the amount of time people are in Law School.

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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I know there are definitely profs who are decent about grades/the curve/etc, but there's definitely a cadre who aren't, is all.

It depends on how you define "decent about grades." If this is giving a refusal to give a B- on a 3.3 curve then giving a B to an exam others would give a B- denies someone of an A. I'm sure you would agree that legal employment is fairly zero sum. Someone will always strikeout, not get a clerkship or not get that PI position they desperately want. Is it better to have a world where futures are decided on the basis of performance on a test or one where they're decided on someone being a little socially awkward or a little less socially awkward, or knowing what 9 iron is? Both arguments are credible, but it's not necessarily true that giving bad grades means the grader doesn't care.

If you're talking about choosing to give less than the maximum allotted curve then we're on the same page. That's pretty mean.

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rpupkin
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby rpupkin » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:00 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:I didn't know Yale Hastings was in Palo Alto

Seriously, WTF is going on with the SLS students in this thread? Has that law school really gone downhill of late, or was it always a little more TTT than I realized?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:38 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I know there are definitely profs who are decent about grades/the curve/etc, but there's definitely a cadre who aren't, is all.

It depends on how you define "decent about grades." If this is giving a refusal to give a B- on a 3.3 curve then giving a B to an exam others would give a B- denies someone of an A. I'm sure you would agree that legal employment is fairly zero sum. Someone will always strikeout, not get a clerkship or not get that PI position they desperately want. Is it better to have a world where futures are decided on the basis of performance on a test or one where they're decided on someone being a little socially awkward or a little less socially awkward, or knowing what 9 iron is? Both arguments are credible, but it's not necessarily true that giving bad grades means the grader doesn't care.

If you're talking about choosing to give less than the maximum allotted curve then we're on the same page. That's pretty mean.

All I meant was that there are some profs who care about the impact of the curve, are sorry that the curve makes them give out low grades, recognize the impact of the curve/grades on employment, and care about student employment, and there are others who don't care at all because they went through it and you get what you get. I never said giving bad grades means they don't care.

AReasonableMan
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:15 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I know there are definitely profs who are decent about grades/the curve/etc, but there's definitely a cadre who aren't, is all.

It depends on how you define "decent about grades." If this is giving a refusal to give a B- on a 3.3 curve then giving a B to an exam others would give a B- denies someone of an A. I'm sure you would agree that legal employment is fairly zero sum. Someone will always strikeout, not get a clerkship or not get that PI position they desperately want. Is it better to have a world where futures are decided on the basis of performance on a test or one where they're decided on someone being a little socially awkward or a little less socially awkward, or knowing what 9 iron is? Both arguments are credible, but it's not necessarily true that giving bad grades means the grader doesn't care.

If you're talking about choosing to give less than the maximum allotted curve then we're on the same page. That's pretty mean.

All I meant was that there are some profs who care about the impact of the curve, are sorry that the curve makes them give out low grades, recognize the impact of the curve/grades on employment, and care about student employment, and there are others who don't care at all because they went through it and you get what you get. I never said giving bad grades means they don't care.

that sounds about right. either way the result is the same. what tangible impact does the "i'm sorry" have? it's arguably just self-serving.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:30 pm

declare your dream

#dream fearlessly

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:46 pm

Johann, what's your favorite Maynard James Keenan song?

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chuckbass
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Re: Why do people say 1L performance is unpredictable?

Postby chuckbass » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:12 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I know there are definitely profs who are decent about grades/the curve/etc, but there's definitely a cadre who aren't, is all.

It depends on how you define "decent about grades." If this is giving a refusal to give a B- on a 3.3 curve then giving a B to an exam others would give a B- denies someone of an A. I'm sure you would agree that legal employment is fairly zero sum. Someone will always strikeout, not get a clerkship or not get that PI position they desperately want. Is it better to have a world where futures are decided on the basis of performance on a test or one where they're decided on someone being a little socially awkward or a little less socially awkward, or knowing what 9 iron is? Both arguments are credible, but it's not necessarily true that giving bad grades means the grader doesn't care.

If you're talking about choosing to give less than the maximum allotted curve then we're on the same page. That's pretty mean.

I mean if anything, the people that get jobs because of bullshitting and personality are the ones that will go farther.




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