Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

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Voyager

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Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:48 am

Good morning! Here is some objective data on how awful lawyers have it. Take heed!

Lawyers are not only 3.6 times more likely to suffer from depression but also are currently committing suicide in record numbers:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/us/lawyer-suicides/

Lawyers HATE biglaw. And by that I mean, they hate it in much larger numbers and with more hate: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/ ... nhappiness
-37 percent of associates at big law firms quit their firms by the end of their third years of practice.”[5]
-45% of those working at 101–250 lawyer firms and 55% of those working at law firms with more than 250 lawyers either expected to or were actively planning to change jobs within the next two years.[6]
-Female associates leave private practice at almost twice the rate of comparable male associates.[7]
-Minority women, although satisfied with their choice of career, are leaving their jobs at large law firms at record rates.[8]
-In 2005, 81% of female associates of color changed jobs within five years.[9]
-Other indicators of career dissatisfaction are the high rates of depression, alcoholism, and suicide among members of the profession.[10]

For reference: I consider a turnover rate in a corporate environment of over 10% as disastrous. I am actually helping a major company function fix a 14% turnover rate right now. If we can lower it to 8% it will be worth $3 million in profit a year.

Lawyers have a tendency to be alcoholics. After 2 years of practice, 18% of attorneys are alcoholics. After 20 years it is 25%. Compare to 7.2% for the rest of the population. [url]http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics
[/url]
Look: you've got to be honest with yourself and others about this law profession. It sucks for the vast majority of lawyers. Objectively. Maybe you are one of the handful of graduates out of your class of 500 who actually likes it? {note that this ALSO requires you to be one of the people who actually gets a job... not a sure thing}. Maybe. MUCH more likely that you will be miserable as shit and will want to quit in 4 years.

If that is the case, you should seriously consider the possibility that you are not special and that you should consider other options. Becoming a plumber, for instance, is much more likely to set you up better financially, requires fewer hours, and teaches you a useful skill.

Sure, I know 3 attorneys (at Quinn, DPW, and Boise Schiller respectively) who like their jobs. The entire rest of my CLS network hates it 4 years out. Some of those are grinding it out to make partner... does not mean they are happy

Posted this in a different thread, but I think it deserves its own topic.

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Bildungsroman

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:17 pm

Wow, few people stick around the same big firm for more than a few years? That must be because those people hate their jobs. I'm sure the firm would be happy if all associates stuck around past the fifth year.

Also, posting an article in which the author immediately and proudly declares that she is a boomer? Talk about not knowing your audience.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:35 pm

I'm not saying law doesn't suck. But I always wonder about causation/correlation in these things. The professions with higher rates of suicide than law (according to the link provided) are physician, dentist, and pharmacist. To what extent do people who have characteristics putting them at risk of depression (or alcohol abuse) more likely to gravitate toward law (or other similar kinds of professions)?

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ms9

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby ms9 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:46 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm not saying law doesn't suck. But I always wonder about causation/correlation in these things. The professions with higher rates of suicide than law (according to the link provided) are physician, dentist, and pharmacist. To what extent do people who have characteristics putting them at risk of depression (or alcohol abuse) more likely to gravitate toward law (or other similar kinds of professions)?


I *think* there is also some confounding going on with medical/dentist/pharmacist due to their access to narcotics. These overdoses are often attributed to suicide but that might be indeed the case. Orthodontists have a higher rate of brain aneurisms, for example, and this has been linked to nitrous oxide intake, not stress or personality characteristics of those who go into that field.

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TheSpanishMain

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:47 pm

Don't a lot of people take BigLaw jobs fully expecting to hate it and intending to bail as soon as they're financially/professionally able to do so?

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:08 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm not saying law doesn't suck. But I always wonder about causation/correlation in these things. The professions with higher rates of suicide than law (according to the link provided) are physician, dentist, and pharmacist. To what extent do people who have characteristics putting them at risk of depression (or alcohol abuse) more likely to gravitate toward law (or other similar kinds of professions)?


I *think* there is also some confounding going on with medical/dentist/pharmacist due to their access to narcotics. These overdoses are often attributed to suicide but that might be indeed the case. Orthodontists have a higher rate of brain aneurisms, for example, and this has been linked to nitrous oxide intake, not stress or personality characteristics of those who go into that field.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that 1) some significant number of deaths that get recorded as doctor/pharmacist/dentist suicides are actually accidental overdoses of narcotics, and 2) narcotics abuse is based on access, so medical professionals will have higher rates of such abuse that have nothing to do with stress or personality characteristics?

Voyager

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:16 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:Wow, few people stick around the same big firm for more than a few years? That must be because those people hate their jobs. I'm sure the firm would be happy if all associates stuck around past the fifth year.

Also, posting an article in which the author immediately and proudly declares that she is a boomer? Talk about not knowing your audience.


Heh. Man, you guys really want to believe the dream, eh? Despite all evidence to the contrary?

Ok.

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ms9

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby ms9 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:22 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm not saying law doesn't suck. But I always wonder about causation/correlation in these things. The professions with higher rates of suicide than law (according to the link provided) are physician, dentist, and pharmacist. To what extent do people who have characteristics putting them at risk of depression (or alcohol abuse) more likely to gravitate toward law (or other similar kinds of professions)?


I *think* there is also some confounding going on with medical/dentist/pharmacist due to their access to narcotics. These overdoses are often attributed to suicide but that might be indeed the case. Orthodontists have a higher rate of brain aneurisms, for example, and this has been linked to nitrous oxide intake, not stress or personality characteristics of those who go into that field.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that 1) some significant number of deaths that get recorded as doctor/pharmacist/dentist suicides are actually accidental overdoses of narcotics, and 2) narcotics abuse is based on access, so medical professionals will have higher rates of such abuse that have nothing to do with stress or personality characteristics?


I'm not saying the bolded part, I'm saying that the three categories you named as having high suicide rates also have unprecedented access to narcotics relative to lawyers (and other professions). That to me introduces the possibility of a confounding variable right there, and might not make them analogous to the legal profession.

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby crit_racer » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:24 pm

TL;DR

100% of associates are melodramatic as fuck and like to bitch about their six figure jobs to anyone willing to listen. Same group of associates prone to suicide/quitting their jobs/posting on TLS

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Big Dog » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:44 pm

For reference: I consider a turnover rate in a corporate environment of over 10% as disastrous.


Huh? The national turnover rate is ~15%.

Eliza Jacobs, strategic research analyst at SHRM, notes that the average annual turnover rate of employees across industries in the United States in 2011-2012 was 15%.

Jacobs writes that industries with the highest average annual turnover rates included services such as accommodation, food and drinking places (35%); arts, entertainment and recreation (27%); and retail and wholesale trade (22%).

Industries with the lowest average annual turnover rates included high tech (11%), municipalities (9%), professional and trade associations (8%), and utilities (8%).

When looking at these statistics it is important to understand characteristics of each industry as well as seasonal patterns and overall trends; it is also important to drill down to examine the root cause(s) of employee turnover.
“A low turnover rate at an organization does not necessarily mean that all is well,”


http://www.nbrii.com/employee-survey-wh ... -turnover/
Last edited by Big Dog on Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fats provolone

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:45 pm

Big Dog wrote:
For reference: I consider a turnover rate in a corporate environment of over 10% as disastrous.


Huh? The national turnover rate is ~15%.

he's only working with ELITE COMPANIES whose business models are TOTALLY COMPARABLE to law firms

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Big Dog » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:52 pm

^^sorry, my bad. (But for the life of me, I have no idea of what could be comparable to Big Law outside of Big Consulting.)

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fats provolone

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:56 pm

everyone hates their lives. if they don't they're idiots and i envy them. lawyers are just more vocal whiners than others.

Voyager

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:12 pm

Big Dog wrote:
For reference: I consider a turnover rate in a corporate environment of over 10% as disastrous.


Huh? The national turnover rate is ~15%.

Eliza Jacobs, strategic research analyst at SHRM, notes that the average annual turnover rate of employees across industries in the United States in 2011-2012 was 15%.

Jacobs writes that industries with the highest average annual turnover rates included services such as accommodation, food and drinking places (35%); arts, entertainment and recreation (27%); and retail and wholesale trade (22%).

Industries with the lowest average annual turnover rates included high tech (11%), municipalities (9%), professional and trade associations (8%), and utilities (8%).

When looking at these statistics it is important to understand characteristics of each industry as well as seasonal patterns and overall trends; it is also important to drill down to examine the root cause(s) of employee turnover.
“A low turnover rate at an organization does not necessarily mean that all is well,”


http://www.nbrii.com/employee-survey-wh ... -turnover/


That includes store retail turnover along with many other non-parallel environments/professions. Store retail turnover is 50%. I qualified my statement with CORPORATE turnover. Turnover at a corporate HQ. Which is closest in environment to biglaw.

Yes, I agree that the turnover rate for Target cashier is a good deal higher than 10%.

By the way, some turnover is healthy.
Last edited by Voyager on Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Cobretti

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Cobretti » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:12 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm not saying law doesn't suck. But I always wonder about causation/correlation in these things. The professions with higher rates of suicide than law (according to the link provided) are physician, dentist, and pharmacist. To what extent do people who have characteristics putting them at risk of depression (or alcohol abuse) more likely to gravitate toward law (or other similar kinds of professions)?

http://www.medicaldaily.com/why-smarter-people-are-more-likely-be-mentally-ill-270039

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby rdawkins28 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:13 pm

fats provolone wrote:everyone hates their lives. if they don't they're idiots and i envy them. lawyers are just more vocal whiners than others.


yay happy idiots. awww i'm not a happy idiot, just a reasonable content moron. one day, i do hope to become a happy idiot.

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:17 pm

fats provolone wrote:everyone hates their lives. if they don't they're idiots and i envy them. lawyers are just more vocal whiners than others.


That is that not true. Not everyone "hates their lives." That's nonsense.

Additionally, alcoholism, depression and suicide is not "whining".

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fats provolone

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:19 pm

Voyager wrote:
fats provolone wrote:everyone hates their lives. if they don't they're idiots and i envy them. lawyers are just more vocal whiners than others.


That is that not true. Not everyone "hates their lives." That's nonsense.

Additionally, alcoholism, depression and suicide is not "whining".

everyone in corporate america is depressed and killing themselves. alcoholism is an optional perk that some have a proclivity for. some choose other drugs.

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fats provolone

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:22 pm

like congratulations if you're delusional enough to think you don't hate yourself, but, actually there's no but, just congratulations. though im skeptical that it's sustainable.

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:23 pm

fats provolone wrote:
Voyager wrote:
fats provolone wrote:everyone hates their lives. if they don't they're idiots and i envy them. lawyers are just more vocal whiners than others.


That is that not true. Not everyone "hates their lives." That's nonsense.

Additionally, alcoholism, depression and suicide is not "whining".

everyone in corporate america is depressed and killing themselves. alcoholism is an optional perk that some have a proclivity for. some choose other drugs.


lol? what the heck? post stats. I have been exposed to numerous corporate environments in a variety of companies/industries. What you are saying is false.

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fats provolone

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:25 pm

not gonna "post stats" to illustrate your false consciousness bro

read a book

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:26 pm

fats provolone wrote:like congratulations if you're delusional enough to think you don't hate yourself, but, actually there's no but, just congratulations. though im skeptical that it's sustainable.


Hold on. You actually think that virtually everyone "hates themselves"? Joking aside, if you are serious, you really need to take a step back and self assess. I don't hate myself. Most people I know don't hate themselves. That sounds pretty unhealthy.

Forget this thread and our disagreement.

You sound like you could really use a better support network. I wish you all of the best, friend.

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:27 pm

fats provolone wrote:not gonna "post stats" to illustrate your false consciousness bro

read a book


I don't know what this even means. I have 16 years of work experience in the public and private sector. I think you are incorrect.

Your retort is gibberish.

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby banjo » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:35 pm

Not surprised to see these statistics. A lot of law students can barely handle the stress of law school, let alone a real job. It's like their brains can't allocate stress between things that are important (exams, job search) and things that aren't (secondary journal, cold calls). Each day is a parade of fires.

It's not just lawyers though. I lived with a pre-med in college who started crying because she couldn't decide if she should pass/fail an elective in her senior year.

Voyager, I think you're being trolled.

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fats provolone

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Re: Lawyers HATE their lives: some data

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:36 pm

banjo wrote:Voyager, I think you're being trolled.

he is, but not by me



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