(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
User avatar
Bronte

Gold
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Bronte » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:37 pm

fats provolone wrote:
Bronte wrote:
fats provolone wrote:lol at happiness


"Satisfied" and "unsatisfied" would have been better word choices.

all the evidence suggests that suicide is pretty satisfying


No I don't think you'd be in a position to feel one way or another at that point.

User avatar
fats provolone

Platinum
Posts: 7125
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:44 pm

Bronte wrote:
fats provolone wrote:
Bronte wrote:
fats provolone wrote:lol at happiness


"Satisfied" and "unsatisfied" would have been better word choices.

all the evidence suggests that suicide is pretty satisfying


No I don't think you'd be in a position to feel one way or another at that point.

my point exactly

User avatar
Cobretti

Gold
Posts: 2563
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:45 am

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Cobretti » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:53 pm

fats provolone wrote:
Bronte wrote:
fats provolone wrote:all the evidence suggests that suicide is pretty satisfying


No I don't think you'd be in a position to feel one way or another at that point.

my point exactly

You're the Wesley Snipes of comedy.

User avatar
fats provolone

Platinum
Posts: 7125
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:59 pm

Cobretti wrote:
fats provolone wrote:
Bronte wrote:
fats provolone wrote:all the evidence suggests that suicide is pretty satisfying


No I don't think you'd be in a position to feel one way or another at that point.

my point exactly

You're the Wesley Snipes of comedy.

Wesley Snipes or WESLEY SNIPES?

User avatar
Elston Gunn

Gold
Posts: 3443
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:09 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:08 pm

Voyager wrote:
rdawkins28 wrote:Yeh yeh yeh... we know. law sucks. no one should go into law. isn't that pretty much one of the main themes of TLS?

but like newton said, for every statistic, there's an equal an opposite statistic. or something like that.

on the bright side, lawyers didn't make this list:

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-alcoholic-jobs-2011-10?op=1 (alcoholic)

or this

http://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20428990,00.html (depression)

or this

http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Performance-Termination/Alcohol-and-Drugs-Testing/5-Jobs-with-Highest-Rate-of-Drug-Use# hey, legal is among the lowest

and apparently 25% might just be normal: http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/professions-with-alcohol-problems/


Heh. Seems like every stat/article I go look at regarding law paints a dire picture. While correlation does not equal causation, at some point there are enough correlations that some connection is implied

By the way, main theme of TLS has always been: "follow your DREAMS and don't listen to the dissenters." This applies to all of the various discussions around employment prospects from different types of schools to going into law to begin with. I wonder what happened to all of those kids who disagreed with me years ago regarding post low tier law school employment? The Dark Times were serious business.

Maybe that was the main theme of TLS 4 years ago, but it's certainly not now.

User avatar
fats provolone

Platinum
Posts: 7125
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:09 pm

but don't you see what a VISIONARY he was for ignoring the advice of people who don't even post here any more

User avatar
Bronte

Gold
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Bronte » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:56 pm

Don't think that was ever the theme of TLS, at least since the financial crisis. It's been bearish on the legal profession as long as I've been here. And rightly so in many cases, but the idea that consulting of all things is the objectively better option is dubious.

User avatar
jbagelboy

Diamond
Posts: 10241
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:22 pm

Bronte wrote:Don't think that was ever the theme of TLS, at least since the financial crisis. It's been bearish on the legal profession as long as I've been here. And rightly so in many cases, but the idea that consulting of all things is the objectively better option is dubious.


As far as crisis & job markets are concerned, consulting firms shed jobs just like legal ones in recession - arguably at a worse rate, because businesses often deem their services less core than legal ones - even if a handful of them did not suffer (such as McKinsey & Co). But that's kind of like saying Wachtell didn't suffer much during the recession as evidence that the legal sector didn't take a hit.

Voyager

Silver
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:22 pm

fats provolone wrote:but don't you see what a VISIONARY he was for ignoring the advice of people who don't even post here any more


7 years ago I was saying that lower ranked law schools were a poor option. Today I am saying law school in general is a poor option.

Big Dog

Silver
Posts: 1205
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Big Dog » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:38 pm

More than anything her chances are buoyed by 3 things

1 the fact that she can say worked in "social media"
2 the fact that she work as a paralegal at a v5
3 the fact that she went to an elite private college on the east coast.


You forgot the obvious: 4) She is a she

User avatar
Rahviveh

Gold
Posts: 2332
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:02 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Rahviveh » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:47 pm

Voyager, how do you and your F500 exec buddies view lawyers generally? Do you lol @ them and their shitty jobs? Are they considered subhuman?

Voyager

Silver
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:42 pm

Rahviveh wrote:Voyager, how do you and your F500 exec buddies view lawyers generally? Do you lol @ them and their shitty jobs? Are they considered subhuman?


Not at all. Few of my peers have any real idea what the lives of lawyers are like. And those of us who do are not laughing at them. I feel bad for my biglaw peers.

The ones who went in house are doing ok.

Lawyers help answer questions of legal risk and help us effect the decisions we make.

If you have the impression that I hate or despise attorneys, then you have misunderstood me. I don't despise lawyers or law students.

bl1nds1ght

Bronze
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:33 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby bl1nds1ght » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:05 pm

Thanks for the thread. It's been a super useful read.

What even constitutes a "top" b-school? Do schools specialize in any distinct areas of business, or are they like law schools where the curriculum is really all the same and it's mostly the job placement/alumni network that matters?

I'm guessing that we don't have nearly the same proliferation of statistics or employment information for b-schools that we enjoy with law schools. What's out there for stats besides basic medians?

What is considered "good" work experience besides high finance? From reading through all eight pages, it seems like there's some disagreement and that some kids get into good b-schools without prestigious work.

It appears that a 720+ on the GMAT is a great starting place for applications, but what happens when someone has a low undergrad GPA like a 3.0? For instance, would a 3.0 / humanities major with 5+ years of work experience in a general counsel's office with direct exposure to the CEO and senior executives have a shot at any worthwhile b-schools, or would that person be automatically barred due to the 3.0 like they would for top law schools? Obviously there are exceptions for both (like NU being splitter-friendly on the law side), but I've gotten a feeling from reading Wall Street Oasis that business schools are generally not as numbers-oriented (GPA/GMAT) as law schools tend to be (GPA/LSAT). I would truly appreciate any insight you may have.

Again, thanks for starting this thread. It's been very helpful.

WhirledWorld

Bronze
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:04 am

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby WhirledWorld » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:58 pm

Voyager wrote:
Bronte wrote:I know people who have been unhappy and unsuccessful going the MBB route out of law school. I also know people who have been happy and successful in big law.

These degrees and career paths are not fungible things that should be compared solely based on salary, hours, and time spent partying while getting the degree. You should be wary of the idea that OP has found you a career path that is "objectively" superior to another one, especially when that conclusion is so self-serving.


Friend, we have objective data on this issue. You are muddying the waters in a rather disingenuous way through a false equivalency.

Lawyers are not only 3.6 times more likely to suffer from depression but also are currently committing suicide in record numbers:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/us/lawyer-suicides/

Lawyers HATE biglaw. And by that I mean, they hate it in much larger numbers and with more hate: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20140518202841-11656958-what-is-big-law-doing-about-lawyer-unhappiness
-37 percent of associates at big law firms quit their firms by the end of their third years of practice.”[5]
-45% of those working at 101–250 lawyer firms and 55% of those working at law firms with more than 250 lawyers either expected to or were actively planning to change jobs within the next two years.[6]
-Female associates leave private practice at almost twice the rate of comparable male associates.[7]
-Minority women, although satisfied with their choice of career, are leaving their jobs at large law firms at record rates.[8]
-In 2005, 81% of female associates of color changed jobs within five years.[9]
-Other indicators of career dissatisfaction are the high rates of depression, alcoholism, and suicide among members of the profession.[10]

For reference: I consider a turnover rate in a corporate environment of over 10% as disastrous. I am actually helping a major company function fix a 14% turnover rate right now. If we can lower it to 8% it will be worth $3 million in profit a year.

Lawyers have a tendency to be alcoholics. After 2 years of practice, 18% of attorneys are alcoholics. After 20 years it is 25%. Compare to 7.2% for the rest of the population. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

Kids who go to MBB have more varied and better exit options that generally pay very well. Lawyers who hate being lawyers can... go in house to be a lawyer.

Look: you've got to be honest with yourself and others about this law profession. It sucks for the vast majority of lawyers. Objectively. Maybe you are one of the handful of graduates out of your class of 500 who actually likes it? {note that this ALSO requires you to be one of the people who actually gets a job... not a sure thing}. Maybe. MUCH more likely that you will be miserable as shit and will want to quit in 4 years.

If that is the case, you should seriously consider the possibility that you are not special and that you should consider other options. Becoming a plumber, for instance, is much more likely to set you up better financially, requires fewer hours, and teaches you a useful skill.

Sure, I know 3 attorneys (at Quinn, DPW, and Boise Schiller respectively) who like their jobs. The entire rest of my CLS network hates it 4 years out. Some of those are grinding it out to make partner... does not mean they are happy.


This is a rather poorly put together argument.

First, you cite high attrition rates as if that definitely establishes that everyone who leaves hated their jobs. When you're looking at the data with your giant "law sucks" blinders on, and comparing apples to bowling balls like you have by comparing biglaw firms to F500 firms, sure, that might seem like the only plausible explanation, but if you've actually worked full-time in the legal industry (like I have... and like you haven't), you'd know most folks leave biglaw for other high-paying, higher quality of life jobs. But even if we assume that high attrition rates = miserable jobs, MBB still shakes out worse than biglaw, because the attrition rates are even higher there than biglaw.

Second, you cite alcoholism and depression rates for lawyers generally, citing an article that cites an article that cites a publication... from 1990. Leaving aside the fact that, yeah, lawyers probably did more coke in 1990, the fact that you're lumping in the Harvard Law grads with the Cooley grads or the Davis Polk lawyers with the shitlaw traffic court lawyers is really misleading.

Voyager wrote:You are muddying the waters in a rather disingenuous way through a false equivalency.


LOL

Voyager wrote:Kids who go to MBB have more varied and better exit options that generally pay very well. Lawyers who hate being lawyers can... go in house to be a lawyer.


Sort of. In my experience, people at MBB generally go do in-house strategy, just like people at Simpson Thacher go do in-house legal. Sure, a sliver of MBB alums go join a start-up, or maybe finance, or maybe management-track, just as a small number of biglaw alums do government/clerking/regulatory/finance etc. but those are one-off exits that usually tie in to the person's particular background and skills.

Voyager wrote:Look: you've got to be honest with yourself and others about this law profession. It sucks for the vast majority of lawyers. Objectively.


Let's sum your "objective" argument up: The vast majority of biglaw sucks, because in 1990 a minority of lawyers generally (not biglaw lawyers specifically) were alcoholics. Furthermore, biglaw sucks because people don't tend to stick around very long. Finally, biglaw sucks because some of my friends say so, and also I say so, even though I've never worked as a full-time lawyer.

Instead, you should get an MBA -- something I also never did -- so that you can maybe go to MBB, where people stick around for even less time than biglaw.

You know, so long as we're putting such emphasis on anecdotal evidence, let me throw my ring in the hat: looking back, I'm very happy I chose my V5 over MBB.

bl1nds1ght

Bronze
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:33 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby bl1nds1ght » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:35 pm

Whirled, to be fair, I don't think that people are taking Voyager's information as gospel. You may not agree with his position as you outlined above, but I still think it's a refreshing point of view when considered from an objective perspective.

Frankly, it's nice to hear something different than the usual TLS bullshit.

User avatar
jbagelboy

Diamond
Posts: 10241
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:40 pm

bl1nds1ght wrote:Whirled, to be fair, I don't think that people are taking Voyager's information as gospel. You may not agree with his position as you outlined above, but I still think it's a refreshing point of view when considered from an objective perspective.

Frankly, it's nice to hear something different than the usual TLS bullshit.


I'm curious, how would you describe the "usual TLS bullshit"? People here have hardened towards the legal industry and I think there's a tremendous amount of sympathy for the general slant of the opinions expressed here. Granted, Voyager just takes the antipathy toward law school to an extreme and says don't go at all rather than only go to a good school on the cheap. But its the same thrust.

Also, is it "bullshit" to consider the merits of going to law school on "top-law-schools.com"? I mean, what the fuck are we doing here otherwise?

FSK

Platinum
Posts: 8056
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby FSK » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:48 pm

TLS Bullshit:

1) Should I CHOOSE CRAWATH OR WATCHLEL OR KEKKER!?!!?!??!?!?!??!?!
2) Did they reject me yet, even though its pretty obvious?
3) Should I apply with a 2.1/125
4) DF threads (TBF, not bullshit)
Last edited by FSK on Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jbagelboy

Diamond
Posts: 10241
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:51 pm

flawschoolkid wrote:TLS Bullshit:

1) Should I CHOOSE CRAWATH OR WATCHLEL OR KEKKER!?!!?!??!?!?!??!?!
2) Did they reject me yet, even though its pretty obvious?
3) Should I apply with a 2.1/125
4) DF threads (TBF, not bullshit)


okay that's fair if that's what the poster above meant. I misread. I thought he suggested that talking about attending law school or why one might become an attorney in toto was bullshit, by contrast to the points made in the OP.

bl1nds1ght

Bronze
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:33 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby bl1nds1ght » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:52 pm

flawschoolkid wrote:TLS Bullshit:

1) Should I CHOOSE CRAWATH OR WATCHLEL OR KEKKER!?!!?!??!?!?!??!?!
2) Did they reject me yet, even though its pretty obvious?
3) Should I apply with a 2.1/125
4) DF threads (TBF, not bullshit)

That's pretty much exactly what I had in mind. That and all the lounge shit.

The reason I started lurking here two years ago was because I was interested in going to law school. Obviously I'm not opposed to that point of view, but it's just nice to see something different. No animosity here.

Also, lol @ Kekker, haha. Just realized your intentional spellings. :lol: :lol:

User avatar
fats provolone

Platinum
Posts: 7125
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby fats provolone » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:06 pm

different doesn't mean good. bruss spamming scat porn in every thread was different.

bl1nds1ght

Bronze
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:33 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby bl1nds1ght » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:11 pm

fats provolone wrote:different doesn't mean good. bruss spamming scat porn in every thread was different.

For once I am thankful for my office filter.

FSK

Platinum
Posts: 8056
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby FSK » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:20 pm

bl1nds1ght wrote:
flawschoolkid wrote:TLS Bullshit:

1) Should I CHOOSE CRAWATH OR WATCHLEL OR KEKKER!?!!?!??!?!?!??!?!
2) Did they reject me yet, even though its pretty obvious?
3) Should I apply with a 2.1/125
4) DF threads (TBF, not bullshit)

That's pretty much exactly what I had in mind. That and all the lounge shit.

The reason I started lurking here two years ago was because I was interested in going to law school. Obviously I'm not opposed to that point of view, but it's just nice to see something different. No animosity here.

Also, lol @ Kekker, haha. Just realized your intentional spellings. :lol: :lol:


Not intentional, just mashed keys!
Last edited by FSK on Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Voyager

Silver
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:01 am

bl1nds1ght wrote:Thanks for the thread. It's been a super useful read.

What even constitutes a "top" b-school? Do schools specialize in any distinct areas of business, or are they like law schools where the curriculum is really all the same and it's mostly the job placement/alumni network that matters?

I'm guessing that we don't have nearly the same proliferation of statistics or employment information for b-schools that we enjoy with law schools. What's out there for stats besides basic medians?

What is considered "good" work experience besides high finance? From reading through all eight pages, it seems like there's some disagreement and that some kids get into good b-schools without prestigious work.

It appears that a 720+ on the GMAT is a great starting place for applications, but what happens when someone has a low undergrad GPA like a 3.0? For instance, would a 3.0 / humanities major with 5+ years of work experience in a general counsel's office with direct exposure to the CEO and senior executives have a shot at any worthwhile b-schools, or would that person be automatically barred due to the 3.0 like they would for top law schools? Obviously there are exceptions for both (like NU being splitter-friendly on the law side), but I've gotten a feeling from reading Wall Street Oasis that business schools are generally not as numbers-oriented (GPA/GMAT) as law schools tend to be (GPA/LSAT). I would truly appreciate any insight you may have.

Again, thanks for starting this thread. It's been very helpful.


Well, as others have fairly pointed out, I never went to business school so I am not an expert on how to get admitted. For instance, I don't know how schools look at GPA/GMAT splitters. Not trying to dodge your question, but I think you should probably head over to a pre-MBA forum.

I also don't know how business schools balance GPA vs work experience. I do know that they take your pre-MBA background very seriously and are looking for a diverse range of work experiences to fill the class.

I can say that I have seen resumes of grads from top business schools whose work background was not Goldman Sachs/McKinsey.

Voyager

Silver
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:05 am

WhirledWorld wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Bronte wrote:I know people who have been unhappy and unsuccessful going the MBB route out of law school. I also know people who have been happy and successful in big law.

These degrees and career paths are not fungible things that should be compared solely based on salary, hours, and time spent partying while getting the degree. You should be wary of the idea that OP has found you a career path that is "objectively" superior to another one, especially when that conclusion is so self-serving.


Friend, we have objective data on this issue. You are muddying the waters in a rather disingenuous way through a false equivalency.

Lawyers are not only 3.6 times more likely to suffer from depression but also are currently committing suicide in record numbers:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/us/lawyer-suicides/

Lawyers HATE biglaw. And by that I mean, they hate it in much larger numbers and with more hate: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20140518202841-11656958-what-is-big-law-doing-about-lawyer-unhappiness
-37 percent of associates at big law firms quit their firms by the end of their third years of practice.”[5]
-45% of those working at 101–250 lawyer firms and 55% of those working at law firms with more than 250 lawyers either expected to or were actively planning to change jobs within the next two years.[6]
-Female associates leave private practice at almost twice the rate of comparable male associates.[7]
-Minority women, although satisfied with their choice of career, are leaving their jobs at large law firms at record rates.[8]
-In 2005, 81% of female associates of color changed jobs within five years.[9]
-Other indicators of career dissatisfaction are the high rates of depression, alcoholism, and suicide among members of the profession.[10]

For reference: I consider a turnover rate in a corporate environment of over 10% as disastrous. I am actually helping a major company function fix a 14% turnover rate right now. If we can lower it to 8% it will be worth $3 million in profit a year.

Lawyers have a tendency to be alcoholics. After 2 years of practice, 18% of attorneys are alcoholics. After 20 years it is 25%. Compare to 7.2% for the rest of the population. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

Kids who go to MBB have more varied and better exit options that generally pay very well. Lawyers who hate being lawyers can... go in house to be a lawyer.

Look: you've got to be honest with yourself and others about this law profession. It sucks for the vast majority of lawyers. Objectively. Maybe you are one of the handful of graduates out of your class of 500 who actually likes it? {note that this ALSO requires you to be one of the people who actually gets a job... not a sure thing}. Maybe. MUCH more likely that you will be miserable as shit and will want to quit in 4 years.

If that is the case, you should seriously consider the possibility that you are not special and that you should consider other options. Becoming a plumber, for instance, is much more likely to set you up better financially, requires fewer hours, and teaches you a useful skill.

Sure, I know 3 attorneys (at Quinn, DPW, and Boise Schiller respectively) who like their jobs. The entire rest of my CLS network hates it 4 years out. Some of those are grinding it out to make partner... does not mean they are happy.


This is a rather poorly put together argument.

First, you cite high attrition rates as if that definitely establishes that everyone who leaves hated their jobs. When you're looking at the data with your giant "law sucks" blinders on, and comparing apples to bowling balls like you have by comparing biglaw firms to F500 firms, sure, that might seem like the only plausible explanation, but if you've actually worked full-time in the legal industry (like I have... and like you haven't), you'd know most folks leave biglaw for other high-paying, higher quality of life jobs. But even if we assume that high attrition rates = miserable jobs, MBB still shakes out worse than biglaw, because the attrition rates are even higher there than biglaw.

Second, you cite alcoholism and depression rates for lawyers generally, citing an article that cites an article that cites a publication... from 1990. Leaving aside the fact that, yeah, lawyers probably did more coke in 1990, the fact that you're lumping in the Harvard Law grads with the Cooley grads or the Davis Polk lawyers with the shitlaw traffic court lawyers is really misleading.

Voyager wrote:You are muddying the waters in a rather disingenuous way through a false equivalency.


LOL

Voyager wrote:Kids who go to MBB have more varied and better exit options that generally pay very well. Lawyers who hate being lawyers can... go in house to be a lawyer.


Sort of. In my experience, people at MBB generally go do in-house strategy, just like people at Simpson Thacher go do in-house legal. Sure, a sliver of MBB alums go join a start-up, or maybe finance, or maybe management-track, just as a small number of biglaw alums do government/clerking/regulatory/finance etc. but those are one-off exits that usually tie in to the person's particular background and skills.

Voyager wrote:Look: you've got to be honest with yourself and others about this law profession. It sucks for the vast majority of lawyers. Objectively.


Let's sum your "objective" argument up: The vast majority of biglaw sucks, because in 1990 a minority of lawyers generally (not biglaw lawyers specifically) were alcoholics. Furthermore, biglaw sucks because people don't tend to stick around very long. Finally, biglaw sucks because some of my friends say so, and also I say so, even though I've never worked as a full-time lawyer.

Instead, you should get an MBA -- something I also never did -- so that you can maybe go to MBB, where people stick around for even less time than biglaw.

You know, so long as we're putting such emphasis on anecdotal evidence, let me throw my ring in the hat: looking back, I'm very happy I chose my V5 over MBB.


Well, here's the thing: if I JUST cited turnover rates or JUST cited depression rates or JUST cited alcohol abuse rates, I might see your point. But all 3 when coupled with the experiences of my classmates? Man, seems pretty convincing that law is a miserable existence and unsustainable.

Your attempt to just wave away all of those stats is somewhat comical.

I am glad you are happy at your V5. Like I said, biglaw does resonate with a small sliver of the law grad population. Kudos for being one of them and getting into that work.

User avatar
84651846190

Gold
Posts: 2198
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:06 pm

Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby 84651846190 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:07 am

People who are happy at V5s are mentally ill, which explains why every V5 partner is mentally ill.



Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: E316, mem2493 and 15 guests