(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

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WhirledWorld

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby WhirledWorld » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:48 pm

Voyager wrote:
dabigchina wrote:Problem is you can't just go out and get experience at a f500, consulting, banking (not going to mention big4 accounting because that will get you laughed out of town). There's a reason those jobs are so coveted. For your run of the mill student at a mediocre state u with a 3.7 in history I'd say law school/biglaw is much more attainable and reasonably lucrative.


I think you are way overestimating the work pedigrees top MBA programs require. I have seen all kinds of backgrounds. And they are not all F500, MBB people. Not by a long shot.

Ex-military, non-profits, nurses, programmers, analysts in various corporate functions. Hell, an assistant manager from Target would probably be highly sought after! Why? Because MBA programs want a class with diverse backgrounds. It makes the discussion more interesting.

In short: I disagree with you. I think that a decent undergrad kid could go work in commission sales for 4 years, go kill the GMAT and get in to any number of top MBA programs.


The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. For reference, here's the class profiles for Wharton/Harvard/Stanford:

http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mba/admiss ... rofile.cfm

http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/data- ... ofile.html

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/programs/m ... ss-profile

A few things that stand out as relevant is that about half the class or more come from consulting or finance, and about 3/4 of the class have business/finance/STEM undergrad degrees. And the median amount of work experience is four years.

Now obviously that doesn't mean that 50% of the class comes from Goldman or McKinsey, but it does suggest (to me at least) that incoming MBA candidates are all already successful.

I know it's anecdotal, but in my personal experience, top-MBA candidates are already successful, whereas most top-JD candidates are not (at least not in their careers).

dabigchina

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby dabigchina » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:48 pm

Voyager wrote:
dabigchina wrote:
Voyager wrote:
dabigchina wrote:I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.


Heh. Yes. I very much regret going to law school over business school.

I am telling these people to go get some work experience. If they can prep the LSAT and score a 172, they can sure as hell prep GMAT and score a 720+.


Problem is you can't just go out and get experience at a f500, consulting, banking (not going to mention big4 accounting because that will get you laughed out of town). There's a reason those jobs are so coveted. For your run of the mill student at a mediocre state u with a 3.7 in history I'd say law school/biglaw is much more attainable and reasonably lucrative.


I think you are way overestimating the work pedigrees top MBA programs require. I have seen all kinds of backgrounds. And they are not all F500, MBB people. Not by a long shot.

Ex-military, non-profits, nurses, programmers, analysts in various corporate functions. Hell, an assistant manager from Target would probably be highly sought after! Why? Because MBA programs want a class with diverse backgrounds. It makes the discussion more interesting.

In short: I disagree with you. I think that a decent undergrad kid could go work in commission sales for 4 years, go kill the GMAT and get in to any number of top MBA programs.


http://poetsandquants.com/2014/07/11/wh ... ting-in-6/

This guy who used to work in admissions at hbs disagrees with you.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:58 pm


http://poetsandquants.com/2014/07/11/wh ... ting-in-6/

This guy who used to work in admissions at hbs disagrees with you.


Oh, I don't know:

"She’s a 24-year-old community manager at a well-known digital media agency in New York. With a 690 GMAT and a 3.5 GPA from Barnard College, she plans to apply to a top business school next year to help achieve her dream of working in strategy for health products and services.

For the past four years, this 26-year-old young professional been working in sales and marketing for a boutique analytics consultancy. A former Eagle Scout, with a 730 GMAT and a 3.8 GPA, he wants to get an MBA to break into a general management role at a Fortune 100 company.

She’s a 33-year-old who has racked up eight years in government and politics, including work on two Presidential campaigns. A Republican, this first generation college grad is now hoping to use an MBA to transition into a job for a large foundation or corporate engagement office."

Feels like those profiles are achievable. They do not all have some highly specialized background at top organizations.

I am betting if you can break a 720 GMAT and have some decent business/sales/etc experience, you'll have a shot. They all are not at super elite places as you said.

I've seen the resumes. When I go to work tomorrow, I'll review MBA resumes I have on file and look specifically at their pre-B school experience. I know I have resumes of people who were in planning, assistant merchants, marketing people, etc.

I think you are overplaying it.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:59 pm

WhirledWorld wrote:
Voyager wrote:
dabigchina wrote:Problem is you can't just go out and get experience at a f500, consulting, banking (not going to mention big4 accounting because that will get you laughed out of town). There's a reason those jobs are so coveted. For your run of the mill student at a mediocre state u with a 3.7 in history I'd say law school/biglaw is much more attainable and reasonably lucrative.


I think you are way overestimating the work pedigrees top MBA programs require. I have seen all kinds of backgrounds. And they are not all F500, MBB people. Not by a long shot.

Ex-military, non-profits, nurses, programmers, analysts in various corporate functions. Hell, an assistant manager from Target would probably be highly sought after! Why? Because MBA programs want a class with diverse backgrounds. It makes the discussion more interesting.

In short: I disagree with you. I think that a decent undergrad kid could go work in commission sales for 4 years, go kill the GMAT and get in to any number of top MBA programs.


The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. For reference, here's the class profiles for Wharton/Harvard/Stanford:

http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mba/admiss ... rofile.cfm

http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/data- ... ofile.html

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/programs/m ... ss-profile

A few things that stand out as relevant is that about half the class or more come from consulting or finance, and about 3/4 of the class have business/finance/STEM undergrad degrees. And the median amount of work experience is four years.

Now obviously that doesn't mean that 50% of the class comes from Goldman or McKinsey, but it does suggest (to me at least) that incoming MBA candidates are all already successful.

I know it's anecdotal, but in my personal experience, top-MBA candidates are already successful, whereas most top-JD candidates are not (at least not in their careers).


Sure. But most JDs haven't even really tried. They either are coming directly out of undergrad or worked for 2 years.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby dabigchina » Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:09 pm

Voyager wrote:

http://poetsandquants.com/2014/07/11/wh ... ting-in-6/

This guy who used to work in admissions at hbs disagrees with you.


Oh, I don't know:

"She’s a 24-year-old community manager at a well-known digital media agency in New York. With a 690 GMAT and a 3.5 GPA from Barnard College, she plans to apply to a top business school next year to help achieve her dream of working in strategy for health products and services.

For the past four years, this 26-year-old young professional been working in sales and marketing for a boutique analytics consultancy. A former Eagle Scout, with a 730 GMAT and a 3.8 GPA, he wants to get an MBA to break into a general management role at a Fortune 100 company.

She’s a 33-year-old who has racked up eight years in government and politics, including work on two Presidential campaigns. A Republican, this first generation college grad is now hoping to use an MBA to transition into a job for a large foundation or corporate engagement office."

Feels like those profiles are achievable. They do not all have some highly specialized background at top organizations.

I am betting if you can break a 720 GMAT and have some decent business/sales/etc experience, you'll have a shot. They all are not at super elite places as you said.

I've seen the resumes. When I go to work tomorrow, I'll review MBA resumes I have on file and look specifically at their pre-B school experience. I know I have resumes of people who were in planning, assistant merchants, marketing people, etc.

I think you are overplaying it.


More than anything her chances are buoyed by 3 things

1 the fact that she can say worked in "social media"
2 the fact that she work as a paralegal at a v5
3 the fact that she went to an elite private college on the east coast.

None of those qualifications would be things that a kid with a 3.7 at aforementioned state school could get. Someone is overplaying it. It's not me.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby iliketurtles123 » Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:53 pm

Voyager wrote:

http://poetsandquants.com/2014/07/11/wh ... ting-in-6/

This guy who used to work in admissions at hbs disagrees with you.


Oh, I don't know:

"She’s a 24-year-old community manager at a well-known digital media agency in New York. With a 690 GMAT and a 3.5 GPA from Barnard College, she plans to apply to a top business school next year to help achieve her dream of working in strategy for health products and services.

For the past four years, this 26-year-old young professional been working in sales and marketing for a boutique analytics consultancy. A former Eagle Scout, with a 730 GMAT and a 3.8 GPA, he wants to get an MBA to break into a general management role at a Fortune 100 company.

She’s a 33-year-old who has racked up eight years in government and politics, including work on two Presidential campaigns. A Republican, this first generation college grad is now hoping to use an MBA to transition into a job for a large foundation or corporate engagement office."

Feels like those profiles are achievable. They do not all have some highly specialized background at top organizations.

I am betting if you can break a 720 GMAT and have some decent business/sales/etc experience, you'll have a shot. They all are not at super elite places as you said.

I've seen the resumes. When I go to work tomorrow, I'll review MBA resumes I have on file and look specifically at their pre-B school experience. I know I have resumes of people who were in planning, assistant merchants, marketing people, etc.

I think you are overplaying it.


My concern is not about getting into the MBA program (since many law schools help you get into the MBA program) but about the job search.
Would having only 1 year of work experience in an obscure field be any use if I want to work in the financial industry? I mean, after all, an MBA is a supplement to your work experience. Wouldn't I be competing with fellow applicants who worked as an analyst at Goldman Sachs before getting their MBA?

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:19 pm

dabigchina wrote:
Voyager wrote:

http://poetsandquants.com/2014/07/11/wh ... ting-in-6/

This guy who used to work in admissions at hbs disagrees with you.


Oh, I don't know:

"She’s a 24-year-old community manager at a well-known digital media agency in New York. With a 690 GMAT and a 3.5 GPA from Barnard College, she plans to apply to a top business school next year to help achieve her dream of working in strategy for health products and services.

For the past four years, this 26-year-old young professional been working in sales and marketing for a boutique analytics consultancy. A former Eagle Scout, with a 730 GMAT and a 3.8 GPA, he wants to get an MBA to break into a general management role at a Fortune 100 company.

She’s a 33-year-old who has racked up eight years in government and politics, including work on two Presidential campaigns. A Republican, this first generation college grad is now hoping to use an MBA to transition into a job for a large foundation or corporate engagement office."

Feels like those profiles are achievable. They do not all have some highly specialized background at top organizations.

I am betting if you can break a 720 GMAT and have some decent business/sales/etc experience, you'll have a shot. They all are not at super elite places as you said.

I've seen the resumes. When I go to work tomorrow, I'll review MBA resumes I have on file and look specifically at their pre-B school experience. I know I have resumes of people who were in planning, assistant merchants, marketing people, etc.

I think you are overplaying it.


More than anything her chances are buoyed by 3 things

1 the fact that she can say worked in "social media"
2 the fact that she work as a paralegal at a v5
3 the fact that she went to an elite private college on the east coast.

None of those qualifications would be things that a kid with a 3.7 at aforementioned state school could get. Someone is overplaying it. It's not me.


"Mr. Marine


730 GMAT (first try)
3.57 GPA
Undergraduate degree in accounting from the University of Kansas, graduating in three and one-half years
Work experience as a U.S. Marine, having served two combat deployments
Was commissioned at the age of 21 and will come out as a captain
25-year-old male
Odds of Success:

Harvard: 40%
Stanford: 30%
Wharton: 40% to 50%
Chicago: 40% t0 50%

Sandy’s Analysis: This is a case where everything lines up. The University of Kansas is the kind of school that Harvard and Stanford like to accept people from if they can."

Dude. I think you are overplaying this. I can do this all day. University of Kansas, friend.

Also BArnard is not all that "elite", frankly.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:49 pm

Voyager, I wonder if your experience can be extrapolated to the average CCN law student because of your extensive pre-law school work experience. Correct me if I'm wrong but I would expect that K-JDs would be at a disadvantage even if they manage to ace the interview (which is a big if - having interviewed with MBB in college, I note that many smart people can't perform well in consulting interviews). I also think that a KJD who went to CCN probably wouldn't be hired as an F500 executive four years later (perhaps depending on what you count as an executive).

I think you're is splitting hairs. The truth about your path and the big law path is that in this day and age, becoming a professional, whether a lawyer, doctor or business person, generally requires that you put your time in working ridiculous hours in a thankless position....big law for law, residency for medicine, consulting or i banking for business. It also requires that you get an expensive useless graduate degree (of course the MD is not useless). After you put up with your thankless position for a few years, you can get a cushier job....works the same in all these fields. Perhaps the in-house job you'd get out of big law wouldn't be quite as good as yours but then again as I mentioned earlier I don't think KJD-->MBB would get your job four years out either.

Voyager wrote:Ah, friend. Law school teaches you very little of actual worth. You don't actually have any unique skills to bring to the table. IP law strategy? Why not hire an actual IP law firm with people that have been thinking about it for years?

That is why new attorneys basically just look for commas for 3 years. They don't know anything.


I also think that you are exaggerating the cons of big law and the pros of consulting when the experience of my friends in consulting seems similar to big law in terms of the hours, stress and suffering (can't say regarding how people are treated). The cons you provide regarding big law certainly apply at least some of the time but it is not all bad. Although I have frustrating experiences from time to time, overall I actually like my job as a corporate junior associate. The bold is hyperbole. Incoming associates (or, worse, summer associates) don't know anything, but a third year is very different from a first year. Also I don't know about every firm but at my firm pretty much right off the bat I was doing a lot more than looking for commas. Tedious detail-oriented tasks are a big part of being a junior associate but if you do solid work and also can identify the right opportunities to show the senior lawyers you're working with that you can make substantive contributions, it won't take long for people to give you increasing substantive responsibility. I wouldn't necessarily advocate big law over consulting but I don't think it is inferior either. JMO

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:18 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:Voyager, I wonder if your experience can be extrapolated to the average CCN law student because of your extensive pre-law school work experience. Correct me if I'm wrong but I would expect that K-JDs would be at a disadvantage even if they manage to ace the interview (which is a big if - having interviewed with MBB in college, I note that many smart people can't perform well in consulting interviews). I also think that a KJD who went to CCN probably wouldn't be hired as an F500 executive four years later (perhaps depending on what you count as an executive).

I think you're is splitting hairs. The truth about your path and the big law path is that in this day and age, becoming a professional, whether a lawyer, doctor or business person, generally requires that you put your time in working ridiculous hours in a thankless position....big law for law, residency for medicine, consulting or i banking for business. It also requires that you get an expensive useless graduate degree (of course the MD is not useless). After you put up with your thankless position for a few years, you can get a cushier job....works the same in all these fields. Perhaps the in-house job you'd get out of big law wouldn't be quite as good as yours but then again as I mentioned earlier I don't think KJD-->MBB would get your job four years out either.

Voyager wrote:Ah, friend. Law school teaches you very little of actual worth. You don't actually have any unique skills to bring to the table. IP law strategy? Why not hire an actual IP law firm with people that have been thinking about it for years?

That is why new attorneys basically just look for commas for 3 years. They don't know anything.


I also think that you are exaggerating the cons of big law and the pros of consulting when the experience of my friends in consulting seems similar to big law in terms of the hours, stress and suffering (can't say regarding how people are treated). The cons you provide regarding big law certainly apply at least some of the time but it is not all bad. Although I have frustrating experiences from time to time, overall I actually like my job as a corporate junior associate. The bold is hyperbole. Incoming associates (or, worse, summer associates) don't know anything, but a third year is very different from a first year. Also I don't know about every firm but at my firm pretty much right off the bat I was doing a lot more than looking for commas. Tedious detail-oriented tasks are a big part of being a junior associate but if you do solid work and also can identify the right opportunities to show the senior lawyers you're working with that you can make substantive contributions, it won't take long for people to give you increasing substantive responsibility. I wouldn't necessarily advocate big law over consulting but I don't think it is inferior either. JMO


ok. well, all i can say is that 99% of my biglaw friends are sad pandas and few of my MBA friends are similarly sad. I stand by what I have said.

Law school is going to be a disaster for almost all of you.

Forget business school. Electricians school would be better.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:02 pm

Voyager wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:McKinsey gave 1 callback from 20 interviews as Yale last year...

Just do McKinsey isn't particularly useful advice, true as it may be.


Yeah, we didn't hire too many Yalies ever. Never ran into a single one. Not sure why. We had LOADS of HLS kids, however. Some CLS and NYU as well.

But you are missing the main thrust of this thread. It's not about going to MBB from law school (although, yeah, much better idea than going to a law firm).

What I am saying is DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL TO BEGIN WITH. GO GET AN MBA. ANY TOP MBA post graduate option is superior to law school.


Thanks for providing your insight.

After reading through this thread, I've noticed that unfortunately, your advise can only apply to the subset of people with 1) strong professional post-grad work experience who are eligible for an M7 mba program, which often means a very high undergraduate GPA from a prestigious UG, AND 2) quant background/skills***, AND 3) little to no interest in actually litigating (all your law firm anecdata pertained exclusively to shitty corporate assignments -- if you want to litigate and you have the credential, b-school is no substitute).

I would argue these individuals are few and far between on this board. If you know you're corporate focused, you're well socialized, quant minded and have the UG pedigree and/or substantial relevant management or finance experience, then I whole-heartedly endorse your advise. It's well taken. As someone who worked in consulting before law school and majored in applied mathematics myself, I can see its value. But most people here are either splitters who couldn't get jobs out of college, or strong writers/readers without quant/business acumen, many of them generally poorly socialized. And then of course there are those who have legitimate reasons for practicing the type of law that actually requires bar passage and the license.

Im not trying to discredit what you're saying at all, just synthesizing some of the more unfavorable reactions towards it.

***ETA: I know many liberal arts majors can access strategy work out of college (although econ background/interest certainly helps). I mean more in terms of orientation.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby juzam_djinn » Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:42 pm

I still don't understand why biz people are incapable of realizing that law school is still primarily LITIGATION-focused...just b/c the lawyers you interact w/ are more likely to be transactional folk doesn't mean that's what all, or even most, lawyers do...

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:39 pm

juzam_djinn wrote:I still don't understand why biz people are incapable of realizing that law school is still primarily LITIGATION-focused...just b/c the lawyers you interact w/ are more likely to be transactional folk doesn't mean that's what all, or even most, lawyers do...


It's funny you should say that because:
1) I had an offer to join the litigation department of a V50; a department I did my 2L summer at
2) I did multiple internships at the USAO SDNY, the Queens DA's office and had an offer to become an ADA with the Bronx DA
3) I worked for a short period of time before law school at a plaintiff's law firm as a legal assistant
4) I have multiple friends who are currently 4th year litigators

In short: there is a high likelihood that I actually know a crap ton more about being a litigator than you do, assuming you are a 1L or 2L.

I can also assure you that the work is AWFUL.

EDIT: let's talk LITIGATION:
1) You spend almost all of your time researching cases on LexisNexis and then writing memos about them. It sucks. It is thankless. AND YOU BETTER HAVE YOUR COMMAS IN THE RIGHT PLACE HERE AS WELL!
2) You get to put together evidence binders with colored tabs! YAY! COLOR! Hopefully that will help with your depression
3) As you approach trial, hours will ramp up from ludicrous to INSANE
4) If you are lucky, you will get to run a deposition as a 4th year associate! EXCITING!

I do agree that AUSAs have a pretty good gig going on. That seemed fun. Very few of you will get a chance at that. Very few. ADA is also difficult to get as so many kids want to go do it. Keep in mind that ADAs earn a pittance and you spend your first while trying nonsense misdemeanors.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:08 pm

Voyager wrote:
dabigchina wrote:I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.


Heh. Yes. I very much regret going to law school over business school.

I am telling these people to go get some work experience. If they can prep the LSAT and score a 172, they can sure as hell prep GMAT and score a 720+.



You cannot be serious. 50 percent of your score on the GMAT covers this topic that is literally not touched on at all in on the LSAT--math.

Do peole on here not realize that one of the main reasons people attend top law schools instead of going to med school or a top b school is because they are not quant oriented? Yes some people have both skill sets; but a lot of people do not. Many of the latter choose law school for that reason. If you're not good at math you are not "prepping" your way to a 720 + GMAT period.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Pneumonia » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:03 am

I agree with the premise ITT that B school > law school, and that on the whole consulting/business in-house > than biglaw/legal in-house. However, the number of T6 law school kids that could snag an M7 MBA is much much lower than Voyager is making it out to be.

Yes b-schools value diversity, to a point. Like they're not letting in 5+ Target asst. mgrs. or whatever, and law schools, even T6 law schools, are riddled with people who's work experience is significantly less impressive than that. That is why we're in law school to begin with.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby 84651846190 » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:08 am

Voyager wrote:
juzam_djinn wrote:I still don't understand why biz people are incapable of realizing that law school is still primarily LITIGATION-focused...just b/c the lawyers you interact w/ are more likely to be transactional folk doesn't mean that's what all, or even most, lawyers do...


It's funny you should say that because:
1) I had an offer to join the litigation department of a V50; a department I did my 2L summer at
2) I did multiple internships at the USAO SDNY, the Queens DA's office and had an offer to become an ADA with the Bronx DA
3) I worked for a short period of time before law school at a plaintiff's law firm as a legal assistant
4) I have multiple friends who are currently 4th year litigators

In short: there is a high likelihood that I actually know a crap ton more about being a litigator than you do, assuming you are a 1L or 2L.

I can also assure you that the work is AWFUL.

EDIT: let's talk LITIGATION:
1) You spend almost all of your time researching cases on LexisNexis and then writing memos about them. It sucks. It is thankless. AND YOU BETTER HAVE YOUR COMMAS IN THE RIGHT PLACE HERE AS WELL!
2) You get to put together evidence binders with colored tabs! YAY! COLOR! Hopefully that will help with your depression
3) As you approach trial, hours will ramp up from ludicrous to INSANE
4) If you are lucky, you will get to run a deposition as a 4th year associate! EXCITING!

I do agree that AUSAs have a pretty good gig going on. That seemed fun. Very few of you will get a chance at that. Very few. ADA is also difficult to get as so many kids want to go do it. Keep in mind that ADAs earn a pittance and you spend your first while trying nonsense misdemeanors.


Litigator here. Litigation does indeed suck ass, but you left out the biggest reason it sucks: ZERO upward mobility. The amount of leverage in litigation is well hidden by the layers of service partners, of counsel and senior associates. Entry-level attorneys look at the number of litigation partners and the number of associates making partner in litigation and figure their chances of "making it" align with these metrics. They are wrong. The life of a service partner/of counsel/super senior associate with NO BUSINESS (which comprises the VAST MAJORITY of partners in litigation, in my experience) is a life of abject servitude. You work more hours than juniors and midlevels, in many instances, and you will always be treated like a bitch by the rainmakers. Always. If you don't mind being a bitch, the pay is not so bad, but it's incredibly hard to survive past your tenth year since there are so many eager cucksuckers lined up behind you desperately trying to get the gold star of service partnership.
Last edited by 84651846190 on Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby juzam_djinn » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:09 am

Voyager wrote:
juzam_djinn wrote:I still don't understand why biz people are incapable of realizing that law school is still primarily LITIGATION-focused...just b/c the lawyers you interact w/ are more likely to be transactional folk doesn't mean that's what all, or even most, lawyers do...


It's funny you should say that because:
1) I had an offer to join the litigation department of a V50; a department I did my 2L summer at
2) I did multiple internships at the USAO SDNY, the Queens DA's office and had an offer to become an ADA with the Bronx DA
3) I worked for a short period of time before law school at a plaintiff's law firm as a legal assistant
4) I have multiple friends who are currently 4th year litigators

In short: there is a high likelihood that I actually know a crap ton more about being a litigator than you do, assuming you are a 1L or 2L.

I can also assure you that the work is AWFUL.

EDIT: let's talk LITIGATION:
1) You spend almost all of your time researching cases on LexisNexis and then writing memos about them. It sucks. It is thankless. AND YOU BETTER HAVE YOUR COMMAS IN THE RIGHT PLACE HERE AS WELL!
2) You get to put together evidence binders with colored tabs! YAY! COLOR! Hopefully that will help with your depression
3) As you approach trial, hours will ramp up from ludicrous to INSANE
4) If you are lucky, you will get to run a deposition as a 4th year associate! EXCITING!

I do agree that AUSAs have a pretty good gig going on. That seemed fun. Very few of you will get a chance at that. Very few. ADA is also difficult to get as so many kids want to go do it. Keep in mind that ADAs earn a pittance and you spend your first while trying nonsense misdemeanors.


none of your reasons for "knowing more" sound substantive at all...I've done PI internships, an SA at a V10, have tons of litigator friends, and worked in a firm/in-house setting before, but I'm still just a clueless 2L in your eyes :/

look, you clearly know your stuff about business-related careers, but please don't talk about litigation as if you were ever a litigator...

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby jingosaur » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:46 am

Thank you for posting Voyager. I agree with some of what you say, but even at the very top law schools, a lot of students have absolutely no experience that will get them anything close to a top MBA and many didn't have the means to get good employment out of undergrad. However, I do agree that getting some kind of work experience after undergrad is in most cases a lot more valuable than going straight through to law school.

If you're good at math, it's pretty easy to kill the GMAT if you have any handle on the LSAT. The top LSAT scorers generally worked their asses off where most top GMAT takers are taking it while they have a very demanding job and are just looking for a score to be in the running. Anecdotally, I got a 780 on the GMAT between a 169 and a 170 on the LSAT with a perfect score on the Quant section.

At a lot of the top 6 law schools, there are a bunch of students who start out there looking to be in business long term. For people with undergraduate business degrees, an MBA can be kind of repetitive since you're basically retaking the entire first year curriculum. The top law schools are starting to get a lot more business friendly. HLS offers a lot of finance and business courses and a negotiation program. Chicago has the Doctoroff program that takes students who enter law school with no intention of practicing law. NYU has something similar with the Jacobson program and if you want to get an MBA from Stern, they only consider your LSAT score and it has a high acceptance rate (people have told me basically nobody gets rejected).

I'm not necessarily condoning law school as a way to business, but people with business backgrounds before law school can get a lot of benefits from law school that they may not get from business school. It's obviously an extra year, but "good work experience" in law school is considered 2-3 years where b-schools generally like 4-5.

I think business firms are starting to notice this trend. The Doctoroff program has been very successful thus far and BCG announced that for the first time they are going to take 1L interns from HLS (and McKinsey will probably do so soon).

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby mudiverse » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:14 am

jingosaur wrote:Thank you for posting Voyager. I agree with some of what you say, but even at the very top law schools, a lot of students have absolutely no experience that will get them anything close to a top MBA and many didn't have the means to get good employment out of undergrad. However, I do agree that getting some kind of work experience after undergrad is in most cases a lot more valuable than going straight through to law school.

If you're good at math, it's pretty easy to kill the GMAT if you have any handle on the LSAT. The top LSAT scorers generally worked their asses off where most top GMAT takers are taking it while they have a very demanding job and are just looking for a score to be in the running. Anecdotally, I got a 780 on the GMAT between a 169 and a 170 on the LSAT with a perfect score on the Quant section.

At a lot of the top 6 law schools, there are a bunch of students who start out there looking to be in business long term. For people with undergraduate business degrees, an MBA can be kind of repetitive since you're basically retaking the entire first year curriculum. The top law schools are starting to get a lot more business friendly. HLS offers a lot of finance and business courses and a negotiation program. Chicago has the Doctoroff program that takes students who enter law school with no intention of practicing law. NYU has something similar with the Jacobson program and if you want to get an MBA from Stern, they only consider your LSAT score and it has a high acceptance rate (people have told me basically nobody gets rejected).

I'm not necessarily condoning law school as a way to business, but people with business backgrounds before law school can get a lot of benefits from law school that they may not get from business school. It's obviously an extra year, but "good work experience" in law school is considered 2-3 years where b-schools generally like 4-5.

I think business firms are starting to notice this trend. The Doctoroff program has been very successful thus far and BCG announced that for the first time they are going to take 1L interns from HLS (and McKinsey will probably do so soon).


jingosaur brings up a valid point here that 1L's should take note off. There are a number of strong 3-yr JD/MBA programs available at the T14 (all of which happen to overlap with the M7, with the exception of MIT). There is also not an insignificant amount of anecdotal evidence out there that says getting into the MBA when you've already been accepted as a 1L is just a matter of piecing together a complete application.

Voyager, I'm curious why you don't recommend trying for the JD/MBA. Although one inevitably takes a backseat to the other in terms of long-term career, it does seem to provide a lot of options for those who are potentially interested in both fields. I don't mean that 0L's should apply to law school with the intention of backdooring into the MBA program, but for those who have some WE and want the skillset provided by both degrees, why not apply? Even as insurance, the MBA programs are not really challenging and can be leveraged in case you strike out at OCI.

Obviously this opinion is sans costs sensitivity. Tuition costs for a JD/MBA are roughly 150% of one degree, but one could argue that it lays a very lucrative and broad career path.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby lacrossebrother » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:17 am

You can get a JD Mba in 3 years

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby banjo » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:58 am

jingosaur wrote:The top LSAT scorers generally worked their asses off where most top GMAT takers are taking it while they have a very demanding job and are just looking for a score to be in the running.


Agree with this completely. If T14-type law students devoted a FRACTION of the effort they put into the LSAT to the quant section on the GMAT, they would probably do fine. Instead, they throw their hands up at the first sign of math. A lack of WE is a major hurdle to this MBA idea; simple algebra/geometry is not.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby lhanvt13 » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:34 pm

Thanks for this thread Voyager!

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:30 pm

banjo wrote:
jingosaur wrote:The top LSAT scorers generally worked their asses off where most top GMAT takers are taking it while they have a very demanding job and are just looking for a score to be in the running.


Agree with this completely. If T14-type law students devoted a FRACTION of the effort they put into the LSAT to the quant section on the GMAT, they would probably do fine. Instead, they throw their hands up at the first sign of math. A lack of WE is a major hurdle to this MBA idea; simple algebra/geometry is not.


No,just no. The mathematical topics themselves do not go beyond algebra/geometry (although frankly considering how different those topics are from reading comp and logical reasoning this is still completely irrelevant in terms of making the determination that the GMAT quant is somehow "easy" compared to the LSAT--the two skill sets just do not intersect) but the questions are designed in such a way as to be brain teasers. The GMAT takes those mathematical topics and then asks the test taker to perform abstract reasoning. They don't just give you 20 questions of " please solve 2x + some integer= some integer". That the demographics of the two groups are so different should provide a hint. There's a reason why many of the top performers on the GMAT are very quant heavy background type test takers like engineers etc. It's also one of the reasons you see far more Indians and Asians represented in top MBA programs than you do at the top law schools. I'm sorry but strong reading comp skills does not automatically equal strong at permutations and combinatorics.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby juzam_djinn » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:39 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
banjo wrote:
jingosaur wrote:The top LSAT scorers generally worked their asses off where most top GMAT takers are taking it while they have a very demanding job and are just looking for a score to be in the running.


Agree with this completely. If T14-type law students devoted a FRACTION of the effort they put into the LSAT to the quant section on the GMAT, they would probably do fine. Instead, they throw their hands up at the first sign of math. A lack of WE is a major hurdle to this MBA idea; simple algebra/geometry is not.


No,just no. The mathematical topics themselves do not go beyond algebra/geometry (although frankly considering how different those topics are from reading comp and logical reasoning this is still completely irrelevant in terms of making the determination that the GMAT quant is somehow "easy" compared to the LSAT--the two skill sets just do not intersect) but the questions are designed in such a way as to be brain teasers. The GMAT takes those mathematical topics and then asks the test taker to perform abstract reasoning. They don't just give you 20 questions of " please solve 2x + some integer= some integer". That the demographics of the two groups are so different should provide a hint. There's a reason why many of the top performers on the GMAT are very quant heavy background type test takers like engineers etc. It's also one of the reasons you see far more Indians and Asians represented in top MBA programs than you do at the top law schools. I'm sorry but strong reading comp skills does not automatically equal strong at permutations and combinatorics.


somewhat agreed, but the GMAT quant section is still nothing particularly difficult; good scorers on the LSAT, given enough prep, should be able to do just fine on the quant and should of course be able to kill the verbal

sure, they may not be able to get a 51Q, but a 49 or 50 is definitely within ANY reasonably high-IQ person's grasp, and combined w/ a good V score will put you in the 760+ range...

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby BigLawer » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:55 pm

I didn't get through all of this, but I have a question. I know a couple biglaw associates who moved from biglaw to investment banking. Is it unheard of for someone to move from biglaw (corporate) to consulting without getting a MBA after the biglaw stint?

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby WhirledWorld » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:38 pm

BigLawer wrote:I didn't get through all of this, but I have a question. I know a couple biglaw associates who moved from biglaw to investment banking. Is it unheard of for someone to move from biglaw (corporate) to consulting without getting a MBA after the biglaw stint?


Not unheard of. Just hard. Easiest time to do bigconsulting is during OCI, or during 3L OCI. After that point, you can apply, but there's no longer much of a streamlined process with HR folks to guide you through it -- you become just a one-off application. And good luck nailing your case interviews when you have biglaw free time to practice.

Still, it's way easier than the move to ibanking.



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