Why you shouldn't go to law school

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
akg144
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby akg144 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:32 pm

Harare wrote:Your biggest asset at this stage is not your lawyering ability, your writing ability or anything of the sort. It is the ability to "get smart" on something very quickly. You have proven that ability pre-ls, during ls by going to HLS, and post-ls by being thrown into things with no explanation and the expectation of high performance. That is applicable in a variety of settings both in the law and outside of it. You need to think a bit more expansively about what you can bring to the table. Your future is not simply v10 for 3 years, burnout to midlaw or whatever. You need to think broader than that, which will take time, but under no circumstances should you feel trapped. Fight the urge to be risk averse. The law is premised on precedent. Everyone is used to doing things a certain way because everything has been done that way before. That's why people make threads about exit opportunities and whether they open up at year 2 or 3 or whatever. These folks crave a path because they have been following one all along - work hard in HS, go to top college, work hard in college, go to top law school, work hard in law school, go to top firm. This engenders a path dependence that precludes anyone from thinking creatively about how to forge a different way. It really does not have to be that way, just prepare to have to do a lot of creative thinking and hard work in your own right if you want something different.


+1

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Fiero85
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby Fiero85 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:43 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
ph14 wrote:It's wrong to suggest that the OP is abnormal, fails to appreciate the job, otherwise isn't "tough" enough, or anything along those lines. OP is far from abnormal on this, and the common TLS post (often but not always from 0L) about how the OP didn't work a tough job beforehand and thus lacks perspective, etc. is just not helpful.

The quality of life issues for biglaw attorneys, especially associates, are well-documented. Most law students have anecdotal evidence, and there is plenty of empirical evidence as well. Let's avoid bashing the OP, though I realize he opened himself up to it to a degree by posting a "Why you shouldn't go to law school" thread on TLS.

--LinkRemoved--


I call BS on both you and the OP. Here are the facts. OP opened up a thread entitled "Why you shouldn't go to law school" which was essentially a page of sob story. I have no doubt he's telling the truth, he definitely has rough bosses. But what are the alternatives? I worked in construction for six years and dug footings 10 hours a day out in the hot sun. I also dealt with sewage and other nasty shit in houses my boss sent me to. Guess what? That's life. Work sucks. That's why they call it work and not happy-fun-time. He makes more money than 99% of Americans and his only complaint is that his bosses are mean and expect stuff from him? Are you kidding me? He's paid off more money in debt in a year than many people make in a year. I call that a pretty sweet life.

OP, I'm going to make a prediction. You grew up in a nice neighborhood with an upper-middle class family who catered to your every whim. You might have had a couple chores, but you certainly had no real responsibility. But you were one of the smartest kids in your class. You graduated at the top of your class in high school and went to an excellent college. You were again one of the smartest there. Everyone raved about how much of a special snowflake you were and you received almost all A's. You got into Harvard Law, the law school most laymen think is the best. You did excellent there, and got yourself an awesome 2L SA at a top firm. They pampered you, and it was pretty sweet. And you deserved it, as in your own words, "You won the law school game."Then you got out into the real world, and for the first time in your life met people who wouldn't treat you like such a special snowflake, and you cracked. Face it, you have a life the vast majority of people would kill for. You make a ton of money, have a lot of responsibility, have cool benefits, and you're about to have a mental breakdown because a couple people are being assholes to you? Grow the fuck up OP. There are people doing truly detestable stuff just for the right to live paycheck to paycheck. All I can say is grow a pair already.

PS: I'd like to mention Gooner's post to actually prove my point. He's talking about children forced to prostitute themselves in order to eat. I think OP's situation is just a little better than that. You just have to go with the punches and understand that assholes are in every industry. Your boss is not going to be Michael Scott.


(makes predictions about the past) lol

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patogordo
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby patogordo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:45 pm

this thread is a strawman holocaust

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ph14
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby ph14 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:51 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
ph14 wrote:It's wrong to suggest that the OP is abnormal, fails to appreciate the job, otherwise isn't "tough" enough, or anything along those lines. OP is far from abnormal on this, and the common TLS post (often but not always from 0L) about how the OP didn't work a tough job beforehand and thus lacks perspective, etc. is just not helpful.

The quality of life issues for biglaw attorneys, especially associates, are well-documented. Most law students have anecdotal evidence, and there is plenty of empirical evidence as well. Let's avoid bashing the OP, though I realize he opened himself up to it to a degree by posting a "Why you shouldn't go to law school" thread on TLS.

--LinkRemoved--


I call BS on both you and the OP. Here are the facts. OP opened up a thread entitled "Why you shouldn't go to law school" which was essentially a page of sob story. I have no doubt he's telling the truth, he definitely has rough bosses. But what are the alternatives? I worked in construction for six years and dug footings 10 hours a day out in the hot sun. I also dealt with sewage and other nasty shit in houses my boss sent me to. Guess what? That's life. Work sucks. That's why they call it work and not happy-fun-time. He makes more money than 99% of Americans and his only complaint is that his bosses are mean and expect stuff from him? Are you kidding me? He's paid off more money in debt in a year than many people make in a year. I call that a pretty sweet life.

OP, I'm going to make a prediction. You grew up in a nice neighborhood with an upper-middle class family who catered to your every whim. You might have had a couple chores, but you certainly had no real responsibility. But you were one of the smartest kids in your class. You graduated at the top of your class in high school and went to an excellent college. You were again one of the smartest there. Everyone raved about how much of a special snowflake you were and you received almost all A's. You got into Harvard Law, the law school most laymen think is the best. You did excellent there, and got yourself an awesome 2L SA at a top firm. They pampered you, and it was pretty sweet. And you deserved it, as in your own words, "You won the law school game."Then you got out into the real world, and for the first time in your life met people who wouldn't treat you like such a special snowflake, and you cracked. Face it, you have a life the vast majority of people would kill for. You make a ton of money, have a lot of responsibility, have cool benefits, and you're about to have a mental breakdown because a couple people are being assholes to you? Grow the fuck up OP. There are people doing truly detestable stuff just for the right to live paycheck to paycheck. All I can say is grow a pair already.

PS: I'd like to mention Gooner's post to actually prove my point. He's talking about children forced to prostitute themselves in order to eat. I think OP's situation is just a little better than that. You just have to go with the punches and understand that assholes are in every industry. Your boss is not going to be Michael Scott.


What is your year in law school and what is your experience with big law? In any event, associate dissatisfaction in big law firms has been well-documented empirically, and people in this thread have explained many of the reasons why multiple times. I'm not going to restate what has already been said.

Moreover, it's hard to take seriously someone who makes posts like this:

MistakenGenius wrote:So, I have a theory and I'd like to get TLS'ers opinions on it. As all of you know, students from Harvard and Yale regularly get flattened by low ranking schools in Moot Court competitions. Now, clearly, the fact that the low ranking schools' students are desperate to stand out and have so much to lose while the HYS students are more set for jobs and so don't care as much accounts for part of this difference. However, I have another theory. If you notice, T14 generally have far more stringent admission standards, with 3.7+ average GPAs combined with LSATs in the 169+ area. I believe that the kind of student to have the kind of work ethic to obtain those stats would be more likely to be introverted and not have the kind of social skills a frat boy at a state law school would have developed. Because of that, I believe that more lawyers from T14 do clerical work and tend not to be as good of trial attorneys because they don't have that charisma less studious students can have. Obviously, I am not talking about every lawyer, but I do believe T14 law students would tend to be more "nerdy" than their counterparts in the third tier. Opinions?

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twenty 8
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby twenty 8 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:19 pm

I realize that this topic is why law school is a bad idea. However, as a 6 month associate there is nothing that strikes me as particularly unpleasant. I am with a 50 attorney firm (60 if you count our 10 attorney gulf coast satellite market) best described as a heritage boutique specializing in a number of fields. We are constantly busy and my hours have stretched to +50 hours during a few weeks. I spend some weekends at home working for a few hours. To date it’s turned out to be a gratifying profession.

Let me add. People get along just fine — some work better with others. What I have noticed is that when two people do not mesh, they avoid each other. If pay is a motivating factor, the city-to-city cost of living difference sites supports the notion that compared to huge city firms, there is no difference.

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PepperJack
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby PepperJack » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:32 pm

Some people are willing to endure far more to make 200k+ a year. That type of money buys protection for you and people you love. Your spouse, children and you can go to the doctor when you want to go to the doctor. You can go to the supermarket, and know that you guys can have meat/fish whenever you want. If your kid ever needs help with a school subject, instead of just saying "let biology play out and they'll fail", you can get a tutor. These are privileges most people don't have. Some people would be willing to kill to be able to provide this to the people they love. You get this, and don't realize how lucky you are. The ones who are in bad shape are the ones who have creditors calling every day, no prospects, etc.

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Otunga
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby Otunga » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:52 pm

All the people trying to convince the guy he has it great relative to the majority of people in other jobs...perhaps you're right, but that still probably understates just how unreasonable and miserable some biglaw supervisors/partners appear to be. As many have pointed out, dissatisfaction, depression and resentment are widespread in the profession, significantly in biglaw. As it stands, I don't see OP as particularly entitled. If people are being assholes, we shouldn't just accept it because "that's work" or "that's life". Instead, the profession should more openly discuss the problems inherent to being a biglaw associate, instead of accepting things as they're established and having others go through bullshit for the sake of tradition, or because "that's the way things are".

Granted, this spiel isn't meant to single out biglaw. As has been stated in the thread, other professions have similar practices and give their workers similar experiences. So what if someone is making a lot of money? That doesn't justify mistreatment, and it shouldn't make the worker receiving that big paycheck complacent. Shaming the guy because he has a large salary understates and removes attention away from how absurd biglaw practices to new associates seem to be.

If it's accepted by the majority of people that you have to go through the motions and get treated with disrespect to advance your career, even if it's only for a few years, then that's reason alone to think about that mindset a little more.

I'm not saying OP shouldn't appreciate his salary. He should. And also, I'm not saying he shouldn't stick to his job, as getting those loans taken care of has to be his main priority given the salary he won't be receiving for a long time. It's just that calling him whiny or ungrateful presents a situation where his complaining is unwarranted. I don't see how it is if what I've heard (on TLS, in a paper documenting the problems posted earlier in this thread, etc.) about biglaw has truth to it.

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patogordo
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby patogordo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:00 pm

biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.

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Otunga
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby Otunga » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:04 pm

patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.


True. It's clear that biglaw would be way more tolerable if the salary was predominantly profit. Once you see so much of it going back to the government, even if you're a fortunate one that has zero debt after leaving biglaw, you're back at square one, jaded, and probably aren't too enamored with the profession. More and more people are realizing how foolish this can be, which is why non-HYS at sticker becomes less and less appetizing if you're mainly a biglaw striver.

californiauser
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby californiauser » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:51 pm

Otunga wrote:
patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.


True. It's clear that biglaw would be way more tolerable if the salary was predominantly profit. Once you see so much of it going back to the government, even if you're a fortunate one that has zero debt after leaving biglaw, you're back at square one, jaded, and probably aren't too enamored with the profession. More and more people are realizing how foolish this can be, which is why non-HYS at sticker becomes less and less appetizing if you're mainly a biglaw striver.


How exactly will OP be "back at square one" with a HLS degree and (often) highly valued work experience?

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PepperJack
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby PepperJack » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:04 pm

patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.

People said the same thing about law school, and for the most part the people aren't shitty. Except for special snowflakes, they're largely much better to be around than non-law school people. Intelligence makes them less boring, and more objective. In general, a large percentage of people suck, and generally the shitty ones are more memorable than the good ones. I might think differently after big law, but so far nothing about law has conveyed more shittiness than average. The opposite has been true, but maybe I've just lived in places with higher rates of shitty people. For instance, I once had a job where a coworker picked up a cellphone someone dropped on the street. Instead of returning it or even dishonestly selling it to make money, he stomped on it just because he felt the urge to break something. Don't want to strawman it, but this is how I perceive shittiness. I don't think this would happen at a law firm.

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Otunga
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby Otunga » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:10 pm

californiauser wrote:
Otunga wrote:
patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.


True. It's clear that biglaw would be way more tolerable if the salary was predominantly profit. Once you see so much of it going back to the government, even if you're a fortunate one that has zero debt after leaving biglaw, you're back at square one, jaded, and probably aren't too enamored with the profession. More and more people are realizing how foolish this can be, which is why non-HYS at sticker becomes less and less appetizing if you're mainly a biglaw striver.


How exactly will OP be "back at square one" with a HLS degree and (often) highly valued work experience?


That's a good point. They're really only at "square one" in terms of their debt situation. But after five years of investment and burnout (or whatever it is exactly), some might still question the LS decision and doing biglaw even with the appealing later career options. Does it give you return on investment ultimately? Yeah, it looks that way, at least in financial terms, but I can't imagine the social and psychological damage that's done.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:13 pm

PepperJack wrote:
patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.

People said the same thing about law school, and for the most part the people aren't shitty. Except for special snowflakes, they're largely much better to be around than non-law school people. Intelligence makes them less boring, and more objective. In general, a large percentage of people suck, and generally the shitty ones are more memorable than the good ones. I might think differently after big law, but so far nothing about law has conveyed more shittiness than average. The opposite has been true, but maybe I've just lived in places with higher rates of shitty people. For instance, I once had a job where a coworker picked up a cellphone someone dropped on the street. Instead of returning it or even dishonestly selling it to make money, he stomped on it just because he felt the urge to break something. Don't want to strawman it, but this is how I perceive shittiness. I don't think this would happen at a law firm.

Someone told a story just this week or so about a partner at Bickel and Brewer who got mad at an associate and swept everything off the associate's desk onto the floor. That seems fairly close to me.

whereskyle
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby whereskyle » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:14 pm

In my eyes, the big law or bust model is most repulsive when taken in the following way. Go to law school for 250k, so that the ONLY job which OP and others feel it appropriate to pursue is a biglaw job. This is quite simply indentured servitude. The $250k law degree is not empowering, but rather shackling. Of course, the indentured servitude model is tried and true. Many servants gain skills and connections through the time of indenture, and some will have opportunities as a result of the process. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the model effectively equals this "antiquated" practice. I'm surprised by how far we haven't come.

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PepperJack
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby PepperJack » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:16 pm

Otunga wrote:
californiauser wrote:
Otunga wrote:
patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.


True. It's clear that biglaw would be way more tolerable if the salary was predominantly profit. Once you see so much of it going back to the government, even if you're a fortunate one that has zero debt after leaving biglaw, you're back at square one, jaded, and probably aren't too enamored with the profession. More and more people are realizing how foolish this can be, which is why non-HYS at sticker becomes less and less appetizing if you're mainly a biglaw striver.


How exactly will OP be "back at square one" with a HLS degree and (often) highly valued work experience?


That's a good point. They're really only at "square one" in terms of their debt situation. But after five years of investment and burnout (or whatever it is exactly), some might still question the LS decision and doing biglaw even with the appealing later career options. Does it give you return on investment ultimately? Yeah, it looks that way, at least in financial terms, but I can't imagine the social and psychological damage that's done.

Short of luck and privilege, any field that pays extremely well comes with extreme self sacrifice. Professional athletes have to work a similar amount of hours, and risk catastrophic injury on a daily basis. Doctors have to go to school and rack up loans till their mid-30's. Actors have to work very hard, keep their physique/looks for their entire career and rely on being the 1%, bankers work similar hours and rely more on luck. Anything that guarantees 6-figures is going to either suck or entail substantial risk. OP gets a guaranteed check, and works indoors with heating.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:19 pm

PepperJack wrote:Short of luck and privilege, any field that pays extremely well comes with extreme self sacrifice. Professional athletes have to work a similar amount of hours, and risk catastrophic injury on a daily basis. Doctors have to go to school and rack up loans till their mid-30's. Actors have to work very hard, keep their physique/looks for their entire career and rely on being the 1%, bankers work similar hours and rely more on luck. Anything that guarantees 6-figures is going to either suck or entail substantial risk. OP gets a guaranteed check, and works indoors with heating.

This is true, but usually professional athletes and actors actually love what they're doing. In any case, just because there are other jobs that are harder or suck more doesn't mean someone can't be legitimately miserable in biglaw.

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Otunga
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby Otunga » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:24 pm

PepperJack wrote:Short of luck and privilege, any field that pays extremely well comes with extreme self sacrifice. Professional athletes have to work a similar amount of hours, and risk catastrophic injury on a daily basis. Doctors have to go to school and rack up loans till their mid-30's. Actors have to work very hard, keep their physique/looks for their entire career and rely on being the 1%, bankers work similar hours and rely more on luck. Anything that guarantees 6-figures is going to either suck or entail substantial risk. OP gets a guaranteed check, and works indoors with heating.


Well, sacrificing yourself through risk or a crazy amount of hours isn't the major problem, it appears. It's being treated like a piece of shit that is. That said, if you tell me that being treated like a piece of shit is the exception and not the rule, then biglaw doesn't sound so bad. Granted, simply putting in a lot of hours will damage someone psychologically (lack of sleep, time for other things, etc.) whether it's a great work environment or a shitty one, but again, I agree that putting in an often abnormal amount of self-sacrifice should usually be expected when one is making big money.

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beachbum
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby beachbum » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:26 pm

patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.


This. If the standard is "because someone out there has it worse than you, you have no right to complain," then human communication as we know it would come to a screeching halt. No shit there are worse jobs (and situations) than biglaw. I would rather be getting paid six figures to work in a nice office than $20k as a roofer in Arizona. Super. But there are levels and contexts; not every comparison must be absolute. And, again, pushing the conversation in that direction is just an easy way to dismiss OP's concerns without actually engaging with them.

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ph14
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby ph14 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:30 pm


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kalvano
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby kalvano » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:16 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
PepperJack wrote:
patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.

People said the same thing about law school, and for the most part the people aren't shitty. Except for special snowflakes, they're largely much better to be around than non-law school people. Intelligence makes them less boring, and more objective. In general, a large percentage of people suck, and generally the shitty ones are more memorable than the good ones. I might think differently after big law, but so far nothing about law has conveyed more shittiness than average. The opposite has been true, but maybe I've just lived in places with higher rates of shitty people. For instance, I once had a job where a coworker picked up a cellphone someone dropped on the street. Instead of returning it or even dishonestly selling it to make money, he stomped on it just because he felt the urge to break something. Don't want to strawman it, but this is how I perceive shittiness. I don't think this would happen at a law firm.

Someone told a story just this week or so about a partner at Bickel and Brewer who got mad at an associate and swept everything off the associate's desk onto the floor. That seems fairly close to me.



To be fair, it was B&B. They are the absolute epitome of everything one would complain about in Biglaw.

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kalvano
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby kalvano » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:24 pm

Also, let's be clear here. Some people seem to think the OP is being horribly abused by terrible bosses. This is the original complaint:

NeedAnExit wrote:
It's difficult to adequately describe the level of despair that I feel on a daily basis It’s not the hours that bother me, although those are bad. It is the constant pressure, people breathing down my neck, getting blamed for shit that’s not my fault, and getting stuck working with the few assholes that I mysteriously never even met during my summer.



That's not being abused. That's not horrible people for bosses. That's work in general. Is it worse than being a shift manager at Starbucks? Yeah, it is. It also has quite a bit more responsibility and salary.

These complaints? Welcome to the really real world. Suck it up and grow up.

Being "abused" is have someone launch a verbal tirade at you and insult you repeatedly, or throw a chair at you, or something like that (all real-life stories).

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worldtraveler
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:17 pm

beachbum wrote:
patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.


This. If the standard is "because someone out there has it worse than you, you have no right to complain," then human communication as we know it would come to a screeching halt. No shit there are worse jobs (and situations) than biglaw. I would rather be getting paid six figures to work in a nice office than $20k as a roofer in Arizona. Super. But there are levels and contexts; not every comparison must be absolute. And, again, pushing the conversation in that direction is just an easy way to dismiss OP's concerns without actually engaging with them.


What people are also missing is that a lot of people who work shit jobs do so because they have no other options. Pretty much every law job is better than minimum wage at McDonalds. But people in really shitty, low pay jobs don't have much of a choice. Anyone with the credentials to get into big law or into a good law school does have other options. Maybe not as lucrative but there will be something you can do.

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patogordo
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby patogordo » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:19 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
beachbum wrote:
patogordo wrote:biglaw has shitty hours shitty work and shitty people. that's why they pay so much. this isn't rocket science. i think OP's point is that when 80% of your money is going to the government in some form you kinda start to wonder why you're working 60+ hours a week at a job you hate. and with a mountain of debt you don't really have a choice.

and yea, okay, people work shittier jobs for longer hours for less money and there are starving kids in africa and OP needs to CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE but come on. that criticism applies to pretty much every discussion on TLS, dude.


This. If the standard is "because someone out there has it worse than you, you have no right to complain," then human communication as we know it would come to a screeching halt. No shit there are worse jobs (and situations) than biglaw. I would rather be getting paid six figures to work in a nice office than $20k as a roofer in Arizona. Super. But there are levels and contexts; not every comparison must be absolute. And, again, pushing the conversation in that direction is just an easy way to dismiss OP's concerns without actually engaging with them.


What people are also missing is that a lot of people who work shit jobs do so because they have no other options. Pretty much every law job is better than minimum wage at McDonalds. But people in really shitty, low pay jobs don't have much of a choice. Anyone with the credentials to get into big law or into a good law school does have other options. Maybe not as lucrative but there will be something you can do.

right. i mean that's basically the whole complaint. why did i take out all this debt to work a job i hate and have basically the same standard of living as if i'd taken a lower paying job out of college. i guess it's a little #firstworldproblem but w/e

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cinephile
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Re: Why you shouldn't go to law school

Postby cinephile » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:43 pm

PepperJack wrote:Short of luck and privilege, any field that pays extremely well comes with extreme self sacrifice. Professional athletes have to work a similar amount of hours, and risk catastrophic injury on a daily basis. Doctors have to go to school and rack up loans till their mid-30's. Actors have to work very hard, keep their physique/looks for their entire career and rely on being the 1%, bankers work similar hours and rely more on luck. Anything that guarantees 6-figures is going to either suck or entail substantial risk. OP gets a guaranteed check, and works indoors with heating.


Wow! I had no idea that jobs in biglaw were guaranteed for life. Is that what you mean by guaranteed check? Also, McDonald's employees work indoors with heating -- they should consider themselves fortunate!

Doctors are generally eligible for public service loan forgiveness, and they shouldn't be racking up loans until their mid-30s unless they decided on med school after already having another career. If you go straight through, you can start repaying your loans on ibr at 26 and get everything discharged by 36 if you work at hospital (which nearly all tend to be non-profits) or an under-served area. And are we seriously going to compare the pay of athletes and actors to lawyers? This is some weak shit, even from a law student.

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Postby MistakenGenius » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:34 pm

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