University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

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wisclaw
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby wisclaw » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:43 pm

vlienj24 wrote:I have to chime in on this topic. I am a 2013 graduate. I understand the OP's overall pessimism regarding UW and employment outcomes. However, as an unemployed 3L who found a job I would like to give my take. If you are in the top 20-30% of your class after your first year you should be in decent shape. You have a decent chance of landing big law somewhere, whether it be Madison, the Twin Cities, MKE, Chicago, or else where. If you miss big law with those grades you have a good shot at getting in with a number of the midlaw firms in the state and beyond the state. If you want to work for a large firm outside the immediate WI area you need top grades. Students do still secure big law on the east and west coasts, but most likely have ties and also have great academic creds.

For those at WI who are unlucky enough to find themselfs without a job their 3L year they need to hussle. They need to get as much experience as possible. There are opportunities to work for firms, businesses, government, non-profits, judges, ect during the school year. Some of these experiences lead directly to jobs while others certainly help in obtaining employment. OP makes it sound like the only positions available to those that miss the 2L OCI boat are positions that pay 20-40k. That is flat wrong. If you are in the bottom 50%, you will probably need to settle for a low paying job. Your goal at that point is to gain experience and move past your terrible grades. I know people who were in the bottom 50% and still secured positions that pay a reasonable amount (think positions that qualify for loan forgiveness). Nonetheless after 9 months about 75-85% of the class has long term legal employment that requires a law degree. I'd imagine my class, the class of 2013 has faired even better than that. The stats that are currently available are for the class of 2012, they had a rough time. I know my class did better than they did.

With that said, I think the OP may be doom and gloom because of his/her situation. I know the feeling. I was there. However, I do truly think that it works out. If you are a WI resident UW is good choice. If you are admitted to a T-14 school I would attend that T-14 unless UW offered a full ride. If its not a T-14 and you intend on working in WI, UW is the best option. If your intention is to work in a different state, like IL, then obviously other schools would give you better options.

PM me if you have questions.


I would like to reiterate that the employment opportunities at the University of Wisconsin are weak. If you fail to get a job out of 2L OCI, then your chances of landing a job paying $70,000 or higher is very slim. For example, this past fall there were 10-15 employers that participated in OCI. Three or four of these firms were IP. I don't recall any other biglaw firms. There was a mid-law ish size firm from Iowa. Another firm from with 8 attorneys. This firm wasn't even hiring. They were initially hiring for an unpaid Legal Intern. They claimed that the job would lead to an Associate position. They hired a girl, but she quit on the second day. Then they hired this other guy, but started looking for other candidates second semester when they realized the guy they hired sucked. Perhaps if they actually paid their interns, they would get better results.

Additionally, make no mistake about it, the jobs that are available after 2L OCI are mostly in the $30,000-$58,000 range. And in this market, I'd say $50,000 or higher is at the top of the range. For example, Assistant Attorney General in Madison.

There are opportunities to do externships during the school year. However, the ones at the Wisconsin Supreme Court or Circuit Courts will not lead to full time opportunities. The majority of the government externships will not lead to full-time opportunities. If you get a job at a small firm, there is a chance that this will go full-time. However, your salary will most likely be less than $50,000 and you will work in a law firm with ten or less attorneys.

I don't know what a reasonable amount consists of? But if they qualify for loan forgiveness, then that means it is public intrest, which rarely pays over $55,000. Yes, we have students who work on the cost. They are Top 10%. The last two presidents of Moot Court landed firm jobs in NYC and DC. That gives you an idea as to the caliber of student that get coast positions.

UW consistently posts jobs that their students are not qualified for. These positions require 1 to 2 years of experience. Recently, the school posted a "job" that consisted of renting office space at $800 a month. The school consistently posts unpaid internships for 3Ls. There are several Associate Attorney positions posted for law firms in "never been to" Wisconsin. These pay $30,000-$40,000.

In terms of Perkins Coie, they do IP and mostly insurance in Madison. They hire 1 to 2 Associates. The same is true for Quarles and Brady and most of the "big law firms" in Madison. Yes, there were two students after 2013 graduation who got big law in Milwaukee. One of them worked in the admissions office for a year. They were from the 2012 class. A girl from the 2012 class who graduated jobless and was working at one of the clinics, got a mid law firm in Eau Claire. However, these are the exception to the rule.

The employment situation is as dire as I make it sound. The job postings that UW posts through simplcity is not unique to the school. My friends at other schools share with me their job postings and a lot of them are the same as UW, which means these jobs are being posted to countless number of schools across the nation.

sconnielaw13
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby sconnielaw13 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:24 am

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sconnielaw13
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby sconnielaw13 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:46 am

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McAvoy
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby McAvoy » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:05 pm

Huh? You see that there were literally 10 people who got biglaw, right? Their mid+big+fedclerk score is 11%. That is awful.

To say it is "completely nonexistent" is untrue, sure. To say it is "virtually nonexistent," however, is completely true.

How can you be an apologist here? Only 60 percent of the class got a long-term bar passage job, but literally one third of those people were in firms of under 25 people.

Stop apologizing and making it sounds like a reasonable scenario for people. If you can go to UW almost for free, then whatever, but a lot of people pay out of state sticker, and that's suicide at these numbers.

sconnielaw13
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby sconnielaw13 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:17 pm

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sconnielaw13
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby sconnielaw13 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:39 pm

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McAvoy
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby McAvoy » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:45 pm

vlienj24 wrote:28 people in the class of 2013 were hired at firms with 101 or more attorneys, not 10. Those firms pay between 115k and 160k starting. If you are in WI making 115k that is very good money. Making 115k in Milwaukee is like making 250k in NYC.


I know. BigLaw is 500+, which was 10 people. 28 people big/midlaw plus *2* federal clerkships/super huge class size = an awful 11% score.

vlienj24 wrote:I'm just trying to point out that things are not as bleak as OP makes them seem. Is UW perfect? No far from it. Can you compare UW employment rates to Yale, Harvard, Chicago, Penn ect.? Absolutely not.

They are as bleak as OP makes them seem -- look at the freaking numbers. 40% of the graduating class did not become lawyers. 35% of the ones that did become attorneys were in firms of less than 25 people. What would you say is "bleak" then?

And nobody was comparing Wisconsin to HYSCCP. UW has a legitimate place for a legitimate group of people, but their class sizes are far too large and they charge way too much money for the sad career prospects they offer.

sconnielaw13
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby sconnielaw13 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:09 am

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sconnielaw13
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby sconnielaw13 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:17 am

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McAvoy
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby McAvoy » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:07 am

vlienj24 wrote:Also I don't think the fact that that 35% practicing in law firms with 25 or fewer attorneys is necessarily bad. There are plenty of smaller firms that do interesting work and pay well. Certainly there are many shitlaw firms in the 25 or fewer category, but WI is a small state and many well respected firms in the state have 25 or fewer attorneys. I know at the more respectable small firms it is not uncommon for 4-6 year associates to be making around 200k a year. That kind of money in a city like Eau Claire, Appleton or Green Bay is a lot of money. If you are working at an ID mill, PI shop, criminal defense firm etc. then of course that isn't the case. For example at an ID mill you will be lucky to be making 90k as a 5th year associate. There are smaller respected firms in Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh ect that pay well and handle interesting work. Overall in Wisconsin fewer than 25 attorneys does not automatically equal shitlaw.


I agree with this and most of what you said on your last post. If you're going to UW, you have to be ready to hustle, drop out, and move to Tomahawk, and you better not be paying more than ~50-60K in tuition for all three years combined.

I would have no problems with UW if they were only trying to fill their legitimate niche. This is not the idea they sell: both by their tuition rates and their marketing, they communicate to the unsuspecting 0L that they are opening doors everywhere by going to UW, when they are so clearly not. They actively recruit out of staters (a huge amount matriculate), sell them bullshit, and put them in serious debt for decades. This is no different than most other regional universities, but at least some (like Iowa) are getting their act together and making an attempt to be decent.

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tww909
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby tww909 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:45 am

vlienj24 wrote:Also I don't think the fact that that 35% practicing in law firms with 25 or fewer attorneys is necessarily bad. There are plenty of smaller firms that do interesting work and pay well. Certainly there are many shitlaw firms in the 25 or fewer category, but WI is a small state and many well respected firms in the state have 25 or fewer attorneys. I know at the more respectable small firms it is not uncommon for 4-6 year associates to be making around 200k a year. That kind of money in a city like Eau Claire, Appleton or Green Bay is a lot of money. If you are working at an ID mill, PI shop, criminal defense firm etc. then of course that isn't the case. For example at an ID mill you will be lucky to be making 90k as a 5th year associate. There are smaller respected firms in Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh ect that pay well and handle interesting work. Overall in Wisconsin fewer than 25 attorneys does not automatically equal shitlaw.


What is your source on this one? At my secondary market big law firm 4-6 year associates generally make around 150k a year. I would be very surprised if any Milwaukee or Madison firm other than Perkins and perhaps Foley or Quarles paid midlevels this much, let alone firms in Eau Claire, Appleton, or Green Bay.

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John Everyman
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby John Everyman » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:52 am

tww909 wrote:
vlienj24 wrote:Also I don't think the fact that that 35% practicing in law firms with 25 or fewer attorneys is necessarily bad. There are plenty of smaller firms that do interesting work and pay well. Certainly there are many shitlaw firms in the 25 or fewer category, but WI is a small state and many well respected firms in the state have 25 or fewer attorneys. I know at the more respectable small firms it is not uncommon for 4-6 year associates to be making around 200k a year. That kind of money in a city like Eau Claire, Appleton or Green Bay is a lot of money. If you are working at an ID mill, PI shop, criminal defense firm etc. then of course that isn't the case. For example at an ID mill you will be lucky to be making 90k as a 5th year associate. There are smaller respected firms in Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh ect that pay well and handle interesting work. Overall in Wisconsin fewer than 25 attorneys does not automatically equal shitlaw.


What is your source on this one? At my secondary market big law firm 4-6 year associates generally make around 150k a year. I would be very surprised if any Milwaukee or Madison firm other than Perkins and perhaps Foley or Quarles paid midlevels this much, let alone firms in Eau Claire, Appleton, or Green Bay.


Quarles and Foley definitely pay that much. I know you were generally saying this, but you added perhaps, leaving it open to question, when there is no question.

sconnielaw13
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby sconnielaw13 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:03 pm

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tww909
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby tww909 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:11 pm

John Everyman wrote:
tww909 wrote:
vlienj24 wrote:Also I don't think the fact that that 35% practicing in law firms with 25 or fewer attorneys is necessarily bad. There are plenty of smaller firms that do interesting work and pay well. Certainly there are many shitlaw firms in the 25 or fewer category, but WI is a small state and many well respected firms in the state have 25 or fewer attorneys. I know at the more respectable small firms it is not uncommon for 4-6 year associates to be making around 200k a year. That kind of money in a city like Eau Claire, Appleton or Green Bay is a lot of money. If you are working at an ID mill, PI shop, criminal defense firm etc. then of course that isn't the case. For example at an ID mill you will be lucky to be making 90k as a 5th year associate. There are smaller respected firms in Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh ect that pay well and handle interesting work. Overall in Wisconsin fewer than 25 attorneys does not automatically equal shitlaw.


What is your source on this one? At my secondary market big law firm 4-6 year associates generally make around 150k a year. I would be very surprised if any Milwaukee or Madison firm other than Perkins and perhaps Foley or Quarles paid midlevels this much, let alone firms in Eau Claire, Appleton, or Green Bay.


Quarles and Foley definitely pay that much. I know you were generally saying this, but you added perhaps, leaving it open to question, when there is no question.


Are those numbers publicly available somewhere? I'm just curious what the progression looks like. If not can you comment more specifically?

sconnielaw13
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Re: University of Wisconsin Madison 3L Taking Questions...

Postby sconnielaw13 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:48 am

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