Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

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gnomgnomuch
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby gnomgnomuch » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:35 pm

BigZuck wrote:
gnomgnomuch wrote:
BigZuck wrote:+4
Worked full time making around minimum wage and totally supporting myself. Prepped for and took the test three times. I had an LSAC waiver so it wasn't like I was oozing with cash.




oh god man, i cant even imagine surviving on a min wage salary... did you live in NY/SF or something, or was it more manageable? Also, serious props.


God bless Texas

Come to think of it that year was probably more like $10 an hour, which is a decent clip above minimum wage. Still, I wasn't exactly rolling in dough and I was working 40 hours a week so didn't have an abundance of free time either.



10 an hour is not a lot. My first job pays 10 an hour, and my 2nd pays 20 an hour... combined together i make just enough to still love at home with my parents.... gotta love NY rent.

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PepperJack
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:15 pm

He's been campaigning here all day too: http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/inde ... 4027753.20.

It's a business, and the bro is a salesman. Fine. However, this is different from an overzealous gym or salon. Sticker debt is 67k for tuition + COL. Yes, COL exists elsewhere, but going to the gym isn't a full time job. People don't have to quit work and live off loans to go to the gym. For a law school dean to use forums just to solicit money, and engage in ad hominem attacks against anyone asking fair questions (like what the attrition rate is per year, or if he expects the 138's to be competitive) is pathetic. In addition, he clearly underestimates the public, particularly people who frolic to top-law-schools.com. How can someone who supports themselves off of BS be so out of touch to think a group of people who scored in the top 10% of the LSAT and mostly in the top 1% won't call him out.

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beachbum
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby beachbum » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:02 pm

PepperJack wrote:He's been campaigning here all day too: http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/inde ... 4027753.20.

It's a business, and the bro is a salesman. Fine. However, this is different from an overzealous gym or salon. Sticker debt is 67k for tuition + COL. Yes, COL exists elsewhere, but going to the gym isn't a full time job. People don't have to quit work and live off loans to go to the gym. For a law school dean to use forums just to solicit money, and engage in ad hominem attacks against anyone asking fair questions (like what the attrition rate is per year, or if he expects the 138's to be competitive) is pathetic. In addition, he clearly underestimates the public, particularly people who frolic to top-law-schools.com. How can someone who supports themselves off of BS be so out of touch to think a group of people who scored in the top 10% of the LSAT and mostly in the top 1% won't call him out.


I just assumed dude was a troll when I first clicked onto this thread. He's (allegedly?) the dean of a terrible law school, but he's still the dean of a law school. I assumed that, even at law schools that have no business existing, the position still entailed some level of professionalism and self-awareness. Yet many of his responses are more evocative of a teenager than of an academic.

I'm honestly not sure what his goal is here. If he's done any level of research (and it seems he has, at least by combing through old posts), he had to have known the hostility he'd be met with on TLS. And he hasn't exactly handled that hostility very well. So now both he and his school come away the worse for it.

But, hell, maybe he's here because he has to be here. If Indy Tech and Cooley are any indication, things are not going swimmingly for bottom-tier law schools. And campaigning for a Cooley on TLS definitely seems like an act of desperation.

despina
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby despina » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:05 pm

+5. Studied in the evenings with a full time job and other personal obligations.

I definitely respect that not everybody has the time and money for full-time prep or expensive materials. I also fully respect that you don't need 170+ or attend a top school to be a great lawyer.

However, as folks have already said above, it's hard to imagine that somebody scoring in the 130s could possibly survive law school, much less become a successful lawyer. To score that low, even with zero prior preparation, you would need to genuinely struggle with English literacy, basic logic, and/or doing simple intellectual tasks under time pressure. Any one of these things would surely be huge obstacles to even an otherwise intelligent and hardworking person to success in law school, much less a legal career. I'm genuinely curious how MCL justifies admitting folks who demonstrate these struggles, beyond the accusation that others have made here that it's just to make money on people who don't understand that their career aspirations are unrealistic. Looking forward to learning the answer.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby shifty_eyed » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:10 pm

MCL dean wrote:Well, we have just about wrapped up the 1L admission process for Fall 2014. However, we still have about three weeks to consider transfer requests here at Monterey College of Law. If you did not have a successful 1L experience and intend to practice law in California, consider contacting MCL before you give up on your dream of being a lawyer. Small classes and a strong academic support program have made a difference for students who got lost in the shuffle at big ABA law schools. Each circumstance reviewed individually.

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/inde ... msg5408959
This is in a thread that has been read 1119 times. :shock:

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PepperJack
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:20 pm

shifty_eyed wrote:
MCL dean wrote:Well, we have just about wrapped up the 1L admission process for Fall 2014. However, we still have about three weeks to consider transfer requests here at Monterey College of Law. If you did not have a successful 1L experience and intend to practice law in California, consider contacting MCL before you give up on your dream of being a lawyer. Small classes and a strong academic support program have made a difference for students who got lost in the shuffle at big ABA law schools. Each circumstance reviewed individually.

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/inde ... msg5408959
This is in a thread that has been read 1119 times. :shock:

Still might be a flame. You would probably have someone with a human resources background handle the direct marketing for you. Even seasoned professional speakers wouldn't just hack off sudden responses at 11 PM at night.

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Tanicius
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Tanicius » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:23 pm

PepperJack wrote:
shifty_eyed wrote:
MCL dean wrote:Well, we have just about wrapped up the 1L admission process for Fall 2014. However, we still have about three weeks to consider transfer requests here at Monterey College of Law. If you did not have a successful 1L experience and intend to practice law in California, consider contacting MCL before you give up on your dream of being a lawyer. Small classes and a strong academic support program have made a difference for students who got lost in the shuffle at big ABA law schools. Each circumstance reviewed individually.

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/inde ... msg5408959
This is in a thread that has been read 1119 times. :shock:

Still might be a flame. You would probably have someone with a human resources background handle the direct marketing for you. Even seasoned professional speakers wouldn't just hack off sudden responses at 11 PM at night.


Highly doubt it is a flame. Actually impersonating someone and advertising that person or organization's business services can get you in a lot of trouble. I doubt anyone cares enough to risk their pecuniary livelihood for it.

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PepperJack
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:26 pm

Tanicius wrote:
PepperJack wrote:
shifty_eyed wrote:
MCL dean wrote:Well, we have just about wrapped up the 1L admission process for Fall 2014. However, we still have about three weeks to consider transfer requests here at Monterey College of Law. If you did not have a successful 1L experience and intend to practice law in California, consider contacting MCL before you give up on your dream of being a lawyer. Small classes and a strong academic support program have made a difference for students who got lost in the shuffle at big ABA law schools. Each circumstance reviewed individually.

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/inde ... msg5408959
This is in a thread that has been read 1119 times. :shock:

Still might be a flame. You would probably have someone with a human resources background handle the direct marketing for you. Even seasoned professional speakers wouldn't just hack off sudden responses at 11 PM at night.


Highly doubt it is a flame. Actually impersonating someone and advertising that person or organization's business services can get you in a lot of trouble. I doubt anyone cares enough to risk their pecuniary livelihood for it.

he'd have to prove damages tho, no? what %age of monterey law can even use google to even have been turned off of attending because of it?

despina
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby despina » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:27 pm

Tanicius wrote:Highly doubt it is a flame. Actually impersonating someone and advertising that person or organization's business services can get you in a lot of trouble. I doubt anyone cares enough to risk their pecuniary livelihood for it.


Agreed. And if it were a flame, the real MCL would have heard of it by now and gotten sites like TLS to take it down and ban whoever was responsible.

BigZuck
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:02 pm

He's been at it on TLS for like 8 years, would have to be one hell of a dedicated flame:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... f=4&t=2241

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PepperJack
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:30 pm

Just was trying to give the benefit of the doubt. It's like they say about criminal law - better to let 9 guilty people go free than lock up 1 innocent.

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Tanicius
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Tanicius » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:33 pm

BigZuck wrote:He's been at it on TLS for like 8 years, would have to be one hell of a dedicated flame:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... f=4&t=2241


Hahahahaha. Best part is this post. It's classic TLS Ken:

Dean Dean Winick,

Thank you for your excellent and informative post discussing the many attributes of your law school. The fact that you would take the time to post this shows your enthusaism and energy that will continue to improve Monterey College of Law. I certainly can confirm that Monterey is one of the most beautiful places in American and if all goes well with our finances we want to buy a second home there because it is so beautiful.

Thanks again for your post and your providing your email so that interested students can learn more about Monterey College of Law.

Best regards,

Ken

03152016
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby 03152016 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:34 pm

Tanicius wrote:
BigZuck wrote:He's been at it on TLS for like 8 years, would have to be one hell of a dedicated flame:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... f=4&t=2241


Hahahahaha. Best part is this post. It's classic TLS Ken:

Dean Dean Winick,

Thank you for your excellent and informative post discussing the many attributes of your law school. The fact that you would take the time to post this shows your enthusaism and energy that will continue to improve Monterey College of Law. I certainly can confirm that Monterey is one of the most beautiful places in American and if all goes well with our finances we want to buy a second home there because it is so beautiful.

Thanks again for your post and your providing your email so that interested students can learn more about Monterey College of Law.

Best regards,

Ken

well looks like things went well with his finances

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PepperJack
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:50 pm

There's this guy from the same thread pretending to be the Dean four-years ago, adding some credibility to the troll possibility (and I must admit I find him to be an excellent writer):

LawBoy wrote:
Because the ABA requires that an ABA accredited school hire a fixed percentage of full-time law professors to students (15 to 1, 12 to 1 are numbers that are thought to be current, but the actual number is a secret!), and pay a minimum salary, schools like Monterey College of Law (MCL) will ever be accredited; they hire only part-time professors, who are lawyers and judges in real life. The school operates only at night, and by my estimate carries about 130 students at any given time. Full-time professors are not an option for this school.

Because the ABA has a requirement that an accredited school carry a fixed number of volume of books in its law library, a number that is not a reality for a school of 130 students who attend school about 12 hours per week, MCL will never gain accreditation.

At an ABA school you will not likely get the personalized attention from your professors that you find at MCL. When you pass the bar and finally open a practice or join a firm you will know quite a few actual practicing local attorneys who are already familiar with you.

That first time you step into a courtroom and have to face a judge, it sure does not hurt that last summer it was this very judge who taught you courtroom procedures and practice.

Yes MCL might be for you if you plan to practice in California and not out of state. MCL might be for you if this is not your first career and you do not plan to take a job that requires 75 hours a week as a new attorney would expect. MCL might be for you if you do not want to have a student loan debt that matches the national budget of a small third world nation.

Many people who go to MCL never plan to take the bar and become an attorney; they cannot afford the pay cut from their current jobs as CEO, doctors, dentists, bankers etc.

When you read that MCL who is pushing 30 years of service to their community has “still not” gained ABA acceptance, consider this; MCL does NOT want to take that road. ABA accreditation would be the death nell for schools like MCL; it would drive the prices way up, would require a huge growth in the student population that is unrealistic for a community based law school and would take the focus off the goal of MCL; to provide a quality education at realistic prices producing lawyers who will benefit their community and not simply leave the area to work for Goldman Sachs, Exxon, or Enron.

I graduated from MCL 13 years ago, am licensed in California, and the US Supreme Court. I am a partner in a local law firm, left MCL with no debt; appear in court at over 30 hearings per month. Only once has a potential client asked me what law school I attended. I told him, and helped him with his legal issue. I am happy to say that HE will be graduating from MCL in just about a month. I made many friends at MCL who are still an important part of my life. Very often the lawyer at the other table is also a graduate of MCL, it never hurts.

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Tanicius
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Tanicius » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:02 pm

PepperJack wrote:There's this guy from the same thread pretending to be the Dean four-years ago, adding some credibility to the troll possibility (and I must admit I find him to be an excellent writer):


As far as I can tell that poster wasn't claiming to be the dean, but an alumni.

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PepperJack
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:06 pm

Tanicius wrote:
PepperJack wrote:There's this guy from the same thread pretending to be the Dean four-years ago, adding some credibility to the troll possibility (and I must admit I find him to be an excellent writer):


As far as I can tell that poster wasn't claiming to be the dean, but an alumni.

"Only 1 client has ever asked me where I went to law school. I told him. Now he is a student at Montery."

I've met two clients. They both asked me in 5 minutes (maybe I seemed incompetent, or maybe it's a general question).

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Tanicius
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Tanicius » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:08 pm

PepperJack wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
PepperJack wrote:There's this guy from the same thread pretending to be the Dean four-years ago, adding some credibility to the troll possibility (and I must admit I find him to be an excellent writer):


As far as I can tell that poster wasn't claiming to be the dean, but an alumni.

"Only 1 client has ever asked me where I went to law school. I told him. Now he is a student at Montery."

I've met two clients. They both asked me in 5 minutes (maybe I seemed incompetent, or maybe it's a general question).


Yes, client. As in, he's a lawyer who went to MCL, not a dean of MCL. His clients would be people he represents, not students.

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dowu
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby dowu » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:15 pm

Welp, this really backfired.

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PepperJack
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:17 pm

Tanicius wrote:
PepperJack wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
PepperJack wrote:There's this guy from the same thread pretending to be the Dean four-years ago, adding some credibility to the troll possibility (and I must admit I find him to be an excellent writer):


As far as I can tell that poster wasn't claiming to be the dean, but an alumni.

"Only 1 client has ever asked me where I went to law school. I told him. Now he is a student at Montery."

I've met two clients. They both asked me in 5 minutes (maybe I seemed incompetent, or maybe it's a general question).


Yes, client. As in, he's a lawyer who went to MCL, not a dean of MCL. His clients would be people he represents, not students.

I got your point. Mine was merely that people have trolled this breh before.

BigZuck
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:11 pm

dowu wrote:Welp, this really backfired.


This + 'tar

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dowu
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby dowu » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:22 pm

Image

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:50 pm

This is just sad.

Fun fact: I think the Dean of Texas Tech and this dude are the two biggest hucksters on this board. Turns out that the MCL dean used to work at TT also. Cut from the same cloth those two.

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redsox
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby redsox » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:57 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:This is just sad.

Fun fact: I think the Dean of Texas Tech and this dude are the two biggest hucksters on this board. Turns out that the MCL dean used to work at TT also. Cut from the same cloth those two.


Come on man. SPerez doesn't deserve to be associated with this guy.

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heavoldgotjuice
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby heavoldgotjuice » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:11 pm

MCL Law Dean, I was watching a South Park episode when I came across your thread. The episode was about old people being conned into buying "expensive" jewelry via his tv show, which was in fact worth nothing. Basically, the salesman was saying "i've got real expensive jewelry but i'm willing to sell it to you for only $1", then the old people would buy the gifts for their grandchildren thinking they were benefiting their family as whole. At the end of the episode, many of the South Park characters began calling in on the tv show and telling the salesman to kill himself. Eventually, the salesman blew his brains out with a revolver on tv.

I wonder if you may reach the same fate. That is all

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:19 pm

redsox wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:This is just sad.

Fun fact: I think the Dean of Texas Tech and this dude are the two biggest hucksters on this board. Turns out that the MCL dean used to work at TT also. Cut from the same cloth those two.


Come on man. SPerez doesn't deserve to be associated with this guy.


One might be slightly less shitty than the other, but they're both bad enough for me not to care about gradation.




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