Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

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NYstate
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby NYstate » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:20 am

Linzer Tort wrote:
NYstate wrote:Hmm. I am stumped by this one. You really have no choice but to take the MW and retake the class for a pass. There is no way you should disclose a disability like bipolar disorder in an interview and I don't know if firms can ask about it.

I.would just say that you had to withdraw for medical reasons but you are retaking the class. I honestly don't know how much more the firm would press that in an interview. If pressed I would say I was being treated for a condition that is no longer an issue.

One warning : big law can drive even stable people into mental health issues. Be sure this is what you want and that you will be able to handle the pressure, stress and hours of the job. You might be better off and happier in a less demanding job.


Yeah, unfortunately it is still the case that admitting mental health issues is a no no. It's sad, really. They're really no different than physical health issues, and even if they are, can be treated just as effectively. But I digress. Thanks for your advice, your warning is something I have certainly thought about.


FWIW I wouldn't disclose any physical health issues that aren't obvious either.
If you can do the job then don't disclose any negative health information.

daleearnhardt123
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby daleearnhardt123 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:43 pm

In my opinion, at a Top 10, a U in a P/F Legal Writing is not going to make or break you at OCI. Yeah, it's an ugly sight, but i'd take a U in LRW for a .05 boost in my real GPA, to give you an idea of how much more I think your *real* grades matter. I know someone at a Top-10 who got such a mark in Legal Writing and ended up with a 2L SA in biglaw.

What you should be more concerned with (I think) is why you couldn't get a Pass to begin with. Ps in the top-10 P/F Legal Writings are a formality. You claim that your "mental disorder" is both treatable and that it doesn't affect your work... so then why did you whiff on the easiest task you'll face in all of law school? Why wasn't it being treated? and if it was, it clearly affected your work.

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it as the thought process I'd have on the other side of the table from you at OCIs. You should be able to explain this to yourself, in a persuasive way, before you should be thinking about how to pull one over on employers. This WILL be a topic of conversation at OCI, and I think most employers are going to want a satisfying answer to how Legal Writing was the only class that got MWd. If they don't ask, you still better believe they'll be thinking it. I don't know how you envision the interviews going in your head, but it's not gonna be as simple as saying "Oh, I had some temporary issues...they only affected Legal Writing... they won't recur...moving on".

NYstate
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby NYstate » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:25 pm

daleearnhardt123 wrote:In my opinion, at a Top 10, a U in a P/F Legal Writing is not going to make or break you at OCI. Yeah, it's an ugly sight, but i'd take a U in LRW for a .05 boost in my real GPA, to give you an idea of how much more I think your *real* grades matter. I know someone at a Top-10 who got such a mark in Legal Writing and ended up with a 2L SA in biglaw.

What you should be more concerned with (I think) is why you couldn't get a Pass to begin with. Ps in the top-10 P/F Legal Writings are a formality. You claim that your "mental disorder" is both treatable and that it doesn't affect your work... so then why did you whiff on the easiest task you'll face in all of law school? Why wasn't it being treated? and if it was, it clearly affected your work.

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it as the thought process I'd have on the other side of the table from you at OCIs. You should be able to explain this to yourself, in a persuasive way, before you should be thinking about how to pull one over on employers. This WILL be a topic of conversation at OCI, and I think most employers are going to want a satisfying answer to how Legal Writing was the only class that got MWd. If they don't ask, you still better believe they'll be thinking it. I don't know how you envision the interviews going in your head, but it's not gonna be as simple as saying "Oh, I had some temporary issues...they only affected Legal Writing... they won't recur...moving on".



I disagree only because it is possible to be ill when the final memo is due and not have it affect other classes.It is really a timing issue.

I don't know how much a Fail would hurt you. My first impression is that it is worse than the Mw.

This isn't a matter of pulling something over on employers if you can really do the work. You and your doctor's are the judge of that.

Linzer Tort
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby Linzer Tort » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Yeah, it's true that the memo was due 3 weeks before finals, and the brunt of my depression happened in the few weeks before the memo was due. I was able to turn it around for exams. I still don't know how I did yet but wouldn't claim that my illness impeded my performance.

NYstate - are you starting to think a MW might be just as bad, or worse, than a F because of what dale said?

NYstate
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby NYstate » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:03 pm

No. I think the F is worse. If your explanation for the F is that you were ill, you might as well get the withdrawal, otherwise it sounds lame.

I agree that your other grades are more important.

I

09042014
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:55 pm

daleearnhardt123 wrote:In my opinion, at a Top 10, a U in a P/F Legal Writing is not going to make or break you at OCI. Yeah, it's an ugly sight, but i'd take a U in LRW for a .05 boost in my real GPA, to give you an idea of how much more I think your *real* grades matter. I know someone at a Top-10 who got such a mark in Legal Writing and ended up with a 2L SA in biglaw.

What you should be more concerned with (I think) is why you couldn't get a Pass to begin with. Ps in the top-10 P/F Legal Writings are a formality. You claim that your "mental disorder" is both treatable and that it doesn't affect your work... so then why did you whiff on the easiest task you'll face in all of law school? Why wasn't it being treated? and if it was, it clearly affected your work.

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it as the thought process I'd have on the other side of the table from you at OCIs. You should be able to explain this to yourself, in a persuasive way, before you should be thinking about how to pull one over on employers. This WILL be a topic of conversation at OCI, and I think most employers are going to want a satisfying answer to how Legal Writing was the only class that got MWd. If they don't ask, you still better believe they'll be thinking it. I don't know how you envision the interviews going in your head, but it's not gonna be as simple as saying "Oh, I had some temporary issues...they only affected Legal Writing... they won't recur...moving on".


So you think

A a failure is nbd
B op is a retard for failing

You don't see the conflict here? It looks horrible failing an easy class. Take the mw.

Linzer Tort
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby Linzer Tort » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:43 pm

People keep saying how easy LW is...maybe my school is different? My prof had very rigorous standards and I know I wasn't the only one struggling.

arklaw13
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby arklaw13 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:44 pm

Linzer Tort wrote:People keep saying how easy LW is...maybe my school is different? My prof had very rigorous standards and I know I wasn't the only one struggling.


Our LRW is graded and I didn't find it particularly demanding. Granted, the worst we can come out with is a C pretty much. I don't think I saw anyone fail when I looked at previous grade distributions.

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BlueLotus
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:58 pm

Linzer Tort wrote:People keep saying how easy LW is...maybe my school is different? My prof had very rigorous standards and I know I wasn't the only one struggling.


your prof is a major tool for failing someone at a t10 in a P/F class who made a good faith effort.

thankfully your admin is understanding and willing to give the MW.

daleearnhardt123
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby daleearnhardt123 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:15 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
daleearnhardt123 wrote:In my opinion, at a Top 10, a U in a P/F Legal Writing is not going to make or break you at OCI. Yeah, it's an ugly sight, but i'd take a U in LRW for a .05 boost in my real GPA, to give you an idea of how much more I think your *real* grades matter. I know someone at a Top-10 who got such a mark in Legal Writing and ended up with a 2L SA in biglaw.

What you should be more concerned with (I think) is why you couldn't get a Pass to begin with. Ps in the top-10 P/F Legal Writings are a formality. You claim that your "mental disorder" is both treatable and that it doesn't affect your work... so then why did you whiff on the easiest task you'll face in all of law school? Why wasn't it being treated? and if it was, it clearly affected your work.

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it as the thought process I'd have on the other side of the table from you at OCIs. You should be able to explain this to yourself, in a persuasive way, before you should be thinking about how to pull one over on employers. This WILL be a topic of conversation at OCI, and I think most employers are going to want a satisfying answer to how Legal Writing was the only class that got MWd. If they don't ask, you still better believe they'll be thinking it. I don't know how you envision the interviews going in your head, but it's not gonna be as simple as saying "Oh, I had some temporary issues...they only affected Legal Writing... they won't recur...moving on".


So you think

A a failure is nbd
B op is a retard for failing

You don't see the conflict here? It looks horrible failing an easy class. Take the mw.


A. Yes, *relative* to real grades
B. Yes, for the same reason that A is true. This isn't supposed to be a real class. A pass is a formality.

My real concern (or, the concern that I think OP should have) is how he's planning on explaining a MW. I think that could actually be worse than explaining a U, given that it severely constraints the range of viable explanations, and he has to make one that the employer both believes and is comforted by. I have no idea how you can claim that a MW for a mental condition is viable given that A. it should have impacted the other classes (so why weren't they MWd?), and B. if it's treatable (i.e. it wont impact his work product at the firm) why wasn't it being treated?

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BlueLotus
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:17 pm

daleearnhardt123 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
daleearnhardt123 wrote:In my opinion, at a Top 10, a U in a P/F Legal Writing is not going to make or break you at OCI. Yeah, it's an ugly sight, but i'd take a U in LRW for a .05 boost in my real GPA, to give you an idea of how much more I think your *real* grades matter. I know someone at a Top-10 who got such a mark in Legal Writing and ended up with a 2L SA in biglaw.

What you should be more concerned with (I think) is why you couldn't get a Pass to begin with. Ps in the top-10 P/F Legal Writings are a formality. You claim that your "mental disorder" is both treatable and that it doesn't affect your work... so then why did you whiff on the easiest task you'll face in all of law school? Why wasn't it being treated? and if it was, it clearly affected your work.

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it as the thought process I'd have on the other side of the table from you at OCIs. You should be able to explain this to yourself, in a persuasive way, before you should be thinking about how to pull one over on employers. This WILL be a topic of conversation at OCI, and I think most employers are going to want a satisfying answer to how Legal Writing was the only class that got MWd. If they don't ask, you still better believe they'll be thinking it. I don't know how you envision the interviews going in your head, but it's not gonna be as simple as saying "Oh, I had some temporary issues...they only affected Legal Writing... they won't recur...moving on".


So you think

A a failure is nbd
B op is a retard for failing

You don't see the conflict here? It looks horrible failing an easy class. Take the mw.


A. Yes, *relative* to real grades
B. Yes, for the same reason that A is true. This isn't supposed to be a real class. A pass is a formality.

My real concern (or, the concern that I think OP should have) is how he's planning on explaining a MW. I think that could actually be worse than explaining a U, given that it severely constraints the range of viable explanations, and he has to make one that the employer both believes and is comforted by. I have no idea how you can claim that a MW for a mental condition is viable given that A. it should have impacted the other classes (so why weren't they MWd?), and B. if it's treatable (i.e. it wont impact his work product at the firm) why wasn't it being treated?


1. jesus, don't kick someone when they're already down. he made it to a t10 after all, and
2. please don't use "retard" as a pejorative

daleearnhardt123
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby daleearnhardt123 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:18 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
daleearnhardt123 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
daleearnhardt123 wrote:In my opinion, at a Top 10, a U in a P/F Legal Writing is not going to make or break you at OCI. Yeah, it's an ugly sight, but i'd take a U in LRW for a .05 boost in my real GPA, to give you an idea of how much more I think your *real* grades matter. I know someone at a Top-10 who got such a mark in Legal Writing and ended up with a 2L SA in biglaw.

What you should be more concerned with (I think) is why you couldn't get a Pass to begin with. Ps in the top-10 P/F Legal Writings are a formality. You claim that your "mental disorder" is both treatable and that it doesn't affect your work... so then why did you whiff on the easiest task you'll face in all of law school? Why wasn't it being treated? and if it was, it clearly affected your work.

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it as the thought process I'd have on the other side of the table from you at OCIs. You should be able to explain this to yourself, in a persuasive way, before you should be thinking about how to pull one over on employers. This WILL be a topic of conversation at OCI, and I think most employers are going to want a satisfying answer to how Legal Writing was the only class that got MWd. If they don't ask, you still better believe they'll be thinking it. I don't know how you envision the interviews going in your head, but it's not gonna be as simple as saying "Oh, I had some temporary issues...they only affected Legal Writing... they won't recur...moving on".


So you think

A a failure is nbd
B op is a retard for failing

You don't see the conflict here? It looks horrible failing an easy class. Take the mw.


A. Yes, *relative* to real grades
B. Yes, for the same reason that A is true. This isn't supposed to be a real class. A pass is a formality.

My real concern (or, the concern that I think OP should have) is how he's planning on explaining a MW. I think that could actually be worse than explaining a U, given that it severely constraints the range of viable explanations, and he has to make one that the employer both believes and is comforted by. I have no idea how you can claim that a MW for a mental condition is viable given that A. it should have impacted the other classes (so why weren't they MWd?), and B. if it's treatable (i.e. it wont impact his work product at the firm) why wasn't it being treated?


jesus, don't kick someone when they're already down. he made it to a t10 after all.


I'm only trying to give him the same thought process that I think someone on the other side of the table during OCI will have.

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BlueLotus
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:20 pm

i get your intention, but agreeing that op is a retard is not the way to go about doing it. of course oci interviewers will look askance at it and op will have to practice reciting a good explanation of what happened.

Linzer Tort
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby Linzer Tort » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:25 pm

Turns out they're not cool with giving MW. It would be "unprecedented" to do so after the fact. If I had gone to them while in the midst of my troubles, it probably could've been arranged. Fucked up thing is is that when you're that depressed, you feel truly hopeless and the last thing you want to do is talk about it. Urgggg.

In a way I agree with you Desert Fox that a U will allow a wider range of explanations, but no one wants their work to be called "unsatisfactory." But I'm not retarded, otherwise this wouldn't be such an enormous and destructive shock to me. It's changed so much of what I thought about myself. I'm trying to spin it as positive in some ways but it's pretty fucking hard.

daleearnhardt123
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby daleearnhardt123 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:29 pm

Linzer Tort wrote:Turns out they're not cool with giving MW. It would be "unprecedented" to do so after the fact. If I had gone to them while in the midst of my troubles, it probably could've been arranged. Fucked up thing is is that when you're that depressed, you feel truly hopeless and the last thing you want to do is talk about it. Urgggg.

In a way I agree with you Desert Fox that a U will allow a wider range of explanations, but no one wants their work to be called "unsatisfactory." But I'm not retarded, otherwise this wouldn't be such an enormous and destructive shock to me. It's changed so much of what I thought about myself. I'm trying to spin it as positive in some ways but it's pretty fucking hard.


That wasn't Desert Fox, it was me. Anyways, I don't think this is such an awful thing, and I don't think you're a "retard" for failing Legal Writing. Like I said, I know someone at the T10 that i went to who secured a very nice 2L SA in spite of this. Focus on the rest of your grades, and if there is anything you can do to get on your Legal Writing professor's good side between now and May - do it (with the goal of securing a letter of rec of sorts for OCI employers. Or, at the very least, a letter endorsing that you are competent despite the U).

09042014
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:30 pm

You gotta brainstorm a good excuse.

Linzer Tort
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby Linzer Tort » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:33 pm

Ah, sorry about that dale. Yeah it's good to hear about your friend. I'm hoping my strong job experience with a law firm will go far, as well as better grades if that happens. Also starting to work with my prof and revising my memo to make it workable for writing samples. So yeah, I'm hoping the whole ordeal can be fixed over time and I know I'm being melodramatic when I think that it's the end for me.

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BlueLotus
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:38 pm

Linzer Tort wrote:Ah, sorry about that dale. Yeah it's good to hear about your friend. I'm hoping my strong job experience with a law firm will go far, as well as better grades if that happens. Also starting to work with my prof and revising my memo to make it workable for writing samples. So yeah, I'm hoping the whole ordeal can be fixed over time and I know I'm being melodramatic when I think that it's the end for me.


ahh, damn boomer administration. was rooting for you, so really sorry to hear. :(

this is a setback, but it won't destroy you given the rank of your school and the fact that it's not factored into your GPA. good thing that instead of wallowing in misery you're willing to work with the HELLRW prof to make the memo into a workable writing sample. Good luck!

Linzer Tort
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby Linzer Tort » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:45 pm

Thanks Blue, and everyone really. Input like this is the reason I keep coming back to TLS (I'm under an alt) even when I think it is a complete and utter waste of time.

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commoner
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby commoner » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:50 pm

My LRW professor threatened to fail me. They're all such bitches especially those with big firm experience.

arklaw13
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby arklaw13 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:52 pm

commoner wrote:My LRW professor threatened to fail me. They're all such bitches especially those with big firm experience.


Lol pretty sure mine never practiced law anywhere.

Lizard
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby Lizard » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:43 pm

Linzer Tort wrote:Yeah, it's true that the memo was due 3 weeks before finals, and the brunt of my depression happened in the few weeks before the memo was due. I was able to turn it around for exams. I still don't know how I did yet but wouldn't claim that my illness impeded my performance.

NYstate - are you starting to think a MW might be just as bad, or worse, than a F because of what dale said?

Props to you for not letting the issue impede your performance in the rest of your classes

NYstate
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby NYstate » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 am

daleearnhardt123 wrote:I'm only trying to give him the same thought process that I think someone on the other side of the table during OCI will have.


Have you done OCI interviewing from the other side of the table? Because it sounds like you have no idea how interviewing works.

OP: don't stress about this - get the rest of your grades and focus on that. I'm sorry you couldn't work it out but it isn't the end of the world. Maybe just be honest and say you had some issues with the final memo but you have worked with the professor on them and understand where you went wrong. Then change the subject to focus on your other grades.

I'm just going to warn you one final time that law as a profession creates mental health issues even in people who don't have problems. Be sure that you have systems in place to protect your mental health.

Linzer Tort
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Re: Medical Withdrawal from Legal Writing--screwed?

Postby Linzer Tort » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:46 pm

NYstate wrote:
daleearnhardt123 wrote:I'm only trying to give him the same thought process that I think someone on the other side of the table during OCI will have.


Have you done OCI interviewing from the other side of the table? Because it sounds like you have no idea how interviewing works.

OP: don't stress about this - get the rest of your grades and focus on that. I'm sorry you couldn't work it out but it isn't the end of the world. Maybe just be honest and say you had some issues with the final memo but you have worked with the professor on them and understand where you went wrong. Then change the subject to focus on your other grades.

I'm just going to warn you one final time that law as a profession creates mental health issues even in people who don't have problems. Be sure that you have systems in place to protect your mental health.


Really happy to hear this. I'm pretty much doing everything in my power--working with my prof to rewrite the memo, talking to the Dean and Career Services, etc.--to mitigate the situation. Just have to have a well-rehearsed line for interviews and hope it all pays off.

I've had 2 years of very very stressful paralegal experience, and recognize that a career in law could present many triggers that could mess me up. Once I started medication I was fine with this work though. Trying to keep a balanced and healthy life to minimize the risk. And like I said, I know it's what I want to do. One thing I've learned and really believe is that you shouldn't let a mental illness define you or get in the way of what you really want.

Anyway, cheers, you've been very helpful.




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